Broncos Player Movement and Rumours 2020

[Porthoz]

Cool, you want to have a debate after calling me a nazi.

1. I asked how many try assists came from passes and you responded with "Repeating a falacy ad nauseum still won't make it true." and now you want to have a debate? How about you answer my question instead of giving smart ass responses that apply to yourself as well and prove zero points.

2. I shouldn't have said he doesn't have a passing game at all, but he barely has a passing game at all. Better? Great.

3. This isn't about Hunt, but I'd like to see some stats about how often Hunt and Taylor put people through holes with their passing game. Of course, according to some nobody has watched all of the Titans games this season so I wouldn't know (WTF @Wolfie we don't all get to go watch these guys train every day.. By the way, I have seen every Titans game this season).

4. I have said a thousand times that I want him back at Broncos. But the hype from you and many others is not equal to what he has shown. That's my point. Your bias toward him is over the top, Just like mine was toward Hunt, even though my point then was that he wasn't the only player to blame and wasn't conveyed as well as I would have liked.

To repeat what I already said. I did not call you Goebbels as a Nazi, but as a propagandist of lies, in the same way I could call you Muhammad Saeed al-Sahhaf.
I publicly apologise if that offended you in the Nazi sense, but not in the propagandist sense, which is what I meant, and is abundantly clear in the context of the discussion.

1. This is obviously referring to your point 2. Don't play dumb.
I don't know how many assists were from passes, but probably not as many as from kicks. I will repeat that his passing game is better than Hunt's on that side of the field, which in your books would make Hunt's less than "barely having a passing game".

3. It's not about Hunt, but the comparison is valid, as Taylor would play in the position Ben held for most of the last 3 seasons, and is the main reason why I said that Gillo, Roberts and Kahu would increase their production. Causality, you know...?

4. You actually said a thousand times you didn't want him, and have recently turned around. You also continuously ignore the fact other people and I recognise flaws in Taylor, but want him for his added value to the Broncos team as a whole. All of this for the sake of your crusade against perceived bias and the word "potential".

 

[Wolfie]

Which is entirely why I asked how many of his try assists came from passes and how many came from kicks. I asked a legitimate question that hasn't been answered yet because we are too worried about a small comment about him having no passing game, when I meant he barely has a passing game. Obviously he can pass and run, seems weird that anyone would think that I meant he literally never passes or runs well. Answer the question and dispute it guys, that's how debates work.

Nobody in their right mind though is going to watch all Taylors games to find this out. You want people to answer the question but you arent providing much evidence either to back up your side of the debate, you just give an opinion ( which is fair enough )with no real evidence to back it up.

I'll compare him to Cronk who i feel offers the control in a game Ash needs to aspire to. The only real stats i can find are He has 32 try assists in 2 full seasons, which i think is pretty good for a team like the titans. Cronk has 36 in the same time for the Storm in a far superior team and i would guess a lot of Cronks assists came from kicks as well. He has 2192 running meters to Cronks 2198, so their running meters are fairly similar. Cant seem to find any stats on if the assists are kicks or passes.

Considering who both players are playing for, and their differing levels of experience, I think Ash stacks up pretty well against Cronk tbh.

 

[Cult]

This is my last response on the matter as it has become apparent that whatever I say will be taken out of context due to past smart ass responses..

If you're going to compare Hunt and Taylor answer my question about who has set up more tries on their side of the field by using their passing game and put the argument to rest. Back up your points when they're questioned instead of responding like you do..

I don't remember saying I don't want Taylor to return, but it's entirely possible. I do believe he's overrated and has done nothing to earn the amount he will probably receive at the Broncos and I think signing him based on potential when we are already doing that for one half could make the club we both apparently love go backwards.

 

[Wolfie]

This is my last response on the matter as it has become apparent that whatever I say will be taken out of context due to past smart ass responses..

If you're going to compare Hunt and Taylor answer my question about who has set up more tries on their side of the field by using their passing game and put the argument to rest. Back up your points when they're questioned instead of responding like you do..

I don't remember saying I don't want Taylor to return, but it's entirely possible. I do believe he's overrated and has done nothing to earn the amount he will probably receive at the Broncos and I think signing him based on potential when we are already doing that for one half could make the club we both apparently love go backwards.

You constantly keep saying answer your question without ever answering other peoples questions. You arent backing up your posts with anything more than your opinion like i said before.

 

[Cult]

You constantly keep saying answer your question without ever answering other peoples questions. You arent backing up your posts with anything more than your opinion like i said before.

Seriously.. Shane Webcke was the greatest goal kicker the club has ever seen. Now I want you to dispute my claim with stats. The onus is on the person making the claim. I want to understand how Roberts and Gillett will be better players. Prove that to me.

 

[Porthoz]

This is my last response on the matter as it has become apparent that whatever I say will be taken out of context due to past smart ass responses..

If you're going to compare Hunt and Taylor answer my question about who has set up more tries on their side of the field by using their passing game and put the argument to rest. Back up your points when they're questioned instead of responding like you do..

I don't remember saying I don't want Taylor to return, but it's entirely possible. I do believe he's overrated and has done nothing to earn the amount he will probably receive at the Broncos and I think signing him based on potential when we are already doing that for one half could make the club we both apparently love go backwards.

Are you saying your posting history in relation to Taylor shouldn't be taken into account? Do you mean that in the same way you do with my posting history on the matter?

Like @Wolfie said, I don't have numbers, nor do I know where to get them, but it is my opinion based on what I've seen from both players through their entire careers, including and especially in FG.

@Wolfie also brought up the attacking stats from the last 2 seasons of both Cronk and Taylor. I admit being surprised they are so close, especially taking into account which team each one played in!
But before you bring it up, I am not saying Ash is as good as Cooper, and yes, I know there is no comparison when it comes to defense and experience.

 

[Lockysillegitimatechild]

We haven't progressed in the last 3 years though. We have in my opinion regressed progressively.

I don't understand how based on that ranking (which wouldn't be too far from mine btw), highlighting the strengths we don't have, you don't think it would help us making the jump to become a real top team in the mold of the Storm.

I think adding him would make us better.

It won't make us the storm.

We are missing 4 things for that. Cameron smith, a kicking game, wrestling and dominant forwards.

1. We won't ever have
2. Taylor would bring
3. Nothing to do with Taylor, but need to practise
4. We might lose some of the juniors we are building into this if we get Taylor..

What I'm arguing is do we potentially lose 4 for 2 when there is a chance one of the juniors could bring it, or is 4 more important then 2 anyway?

But after saying this I still don't think it's what our team is missing to win a premiership. If you want to beat the storm we shouldn't try to be them. We have to figure out a style that troubles them and the cowboys, mirroring them but a little worse isn't going to do that. 8/9 of the last finals series we've been in it's either the storm or the cowboys who have knocked us out. It's a mental advantage they have over us. No one can deny that.

We have started to gain some back the last few years but there is still a mental edge over us that they have. It may not go until smith & thurston retire but bringing in a player who has won a premiership against smith and torments Thurston every game they play (bird) MIGHT help, we need to try something different like that (calm down the idiots who think I'm saying that will cause nsw to win origin or that he makes him play bad every time haha seriously). So for me, even though it's more of a gamble, the bird signing was more critical then any ash Taylor signing would be.

Taylor will make us better but he won't give us an edge over smith and Thurston and that's where we have been losing premierships, it's that simple really.

And regressed, really? The nrl is much slower then 2015 which we need to adapt to again. The team hasn't gotten worse, we are 1 position lower on the table with a lot more injuries then that year. The difference is the wrestle has made a comeback, the hia is getting manipulated so that there aren't tired forwards on the field like 3 years ago, and teams have adapted a bit better now to the lower interchange. This leads to our style being adapted to. We are addressing that & certainly haven't been left behind or regressed. Last year we stagnated as we are a young team and it was a devestating loss,and injuries held us back this year from progressing but we certainly haven't regressed. You can't time your run into the finals perfect every year is all.

 

[Battler]

Because Taylor is a half and Bird won’t be playing half? I don’t know what else to say...

Because with Taylor controlling the game we'll have Bird as a roaming lock, Milf allowed to play his natural game, Knick either at FB (if Darius eventually does move to centre) or off the bench against tired forwards, Roberts, Gillet, and possibly Fifita (assuming he kicks on like we hope). How do you not score points with that sort of fire power?

Bird is also super competitive which is something our team needs more of. He's won a prem and played Origin (the game changed when he came on for Pearce in G1) at age 22.

 

[Sproj]

I’m wondering if Oates has an early shelf life due to his injury riddled body, hence getting the most out of him on the wing while we can. It might not be the worst thing to lose him in two or three years. Not sure either way.

Yes I wonder this too. As great as Oates is (and he really is), he has a very long history of injuries and those head knocks give me a lot of concern over his long-term health.

 

[Sproj]

I'm hoping that's it, but I get the feeling we would lose more.

Unless you get in the Roosters accountant because apparently losing a guy like Blair (Guerra) and a bench forward like Ese'ese (Evans) and a centre like Moga (SKD) plus another reservee like Arrow (Watson) should equal signing Bird (Tedesco) and Taylor (Cronk) plus upgrading pretty much everyone else at the club and still leave us Hunt's money left over.

 

[Porthoz]

I think adding him would make us better.

It won't make us the storm.

We are missing 4 things for that. Cameron smith, a kicking game, wrestling and dominant forwards.

1. We won't ever have
2. Taylor would bring
3. Nothing to do with Taylor, but need to practise
4. We might lose some of the juniors we are building into this if we get Taylor..

What I'm arguing is do we potentially lose 4 for 2 when there is a chance one of the juniors could bring it, or is 4 more important then 2 anyway?

But after saying this I still don't think it's what our team is missing to win a premiership. If you want to beat the storm we shouldn't try to be them. We have to figure out a style that troubles them and the cowboys, mirroring them but a little worse isn't going to do that. 8/9 of the last finals series we've been in it's either the storm or the cowboys who have knocked us out. It's a mental advantage they have over us. No one can deny that.

We have started to gain some back the last few years but there is still a mental edge over us that they have. It may not go until smith & thurston retire but bringing in a player who has won a premiership against smith and torments Thurston every game they play (bird) MIGHT help, we need to try something different like that (calm down the idiots who think I'm saying that will cause nsw to win origin or that he makes him play bad every time haha seriously). So for me, even though it's more of a gamble, the bird signing was more critical then any ash Taylor signing would be.

Taylor will make us better but he won't give us an edge over smith and Thurston and that's where we have been losing premierships, it's that simple really.

And regressed, really? The nrl is much slower then 2015 which we need to adapt to again. The team hasn't gotten worse, we are 1 position lower on the table with a lot more injuries then that year. The difference is the wrestle has made a comeback, the hia is getting manipulated so that there aren't tired forwards on the field like 3 years ago, and teams have adapted a bit better now to the lower interchange. This leads to our style being adapted to. We are addressing that & certainly haven't been left behind or regressed. Last year we stagnated as we are a young team and it was a devestating loss,and injuries held us back this year from progressing but we certainly haven't regressed. You can't time your run into the finals perfect every year is all.

First of all, let me say I enjoy debating with you. No smart arse bullshit, just opinions on the topic, thank you!

I don't want us to turn into the Storm. We have to play to our strengths, and without Smith and (thankfully) without wrestle, we need to combat it with our weapons, which we were close to do in 2015, but couldn't quite finish, not because we faced Thurston and Morgan, but more so because we just lacked something Taylor would have brought at the time... game control and proper kicking.

We have definitely regressed in my opinion, despite finishing higher on the ladder, we went out of the finals without ever looking likely, and while injuries played a role, we were utterly hopeless against teams with the will and ability to beat us.

Taylor is not the be all, end all solution, but we need what he brings, like we need forwards that will put him and Milf in a position to do what they are good at. I do think we have the latter potentially with Ofa, TPJ, Su'a and hopefully Lodge, Savelio and Mago will deliver as well.

Will we lose players as a consequence? Probably, as such is the world of the NRL.
Will we lose the players we really want to keep? I don't think we have to, and that is something I definitely trust Wayne to manage well.

 

[Foordy]

@Cult3 why does it matter whether the try assists come from passes or kicks... the tries are still worth 4 points.

In fact, we need someone that can get try assists from kicks more than we need someone that gets them from passes. That gives us another string to our bow in order to score points.

 

[Danoz Direct]

First of all, let me say I enjoy debating with you. No smart arse bullshit, just opinions on the topic, thank you!

I don't want us to turn into the Storm. We have to play to our strengths, and without Smith and (thankfully) without wrestle, we need to combat it with our weapons, which we were close to do in 2015, but couldn't quite finish, not because we faced Thurston and Morgan, but more so because we just lacked something Taylor would have brought at the time... game control and proper kicking.

We have definitely regressed in my opinion, despite finishing higher on the ladder, we went out of the finals without ever looking likely, and while injuries played a role, we were utterly hopeless against teams with the will and ability to beat us.

Taylor is not the be all, end all solution, but we need what he brings, like we need forwards that will put him and Milf in a position to do what they are good at. I do think we have the latter potentially with Ofa, TPJ, Su'a and hopefully Lodge, Savelio and Mago will deliver as well.

Will we lose players as a consequence? Probably, as such is the world of the NRL.
Will we lose the players we really want to keep? I don't think we have to, and that is something I definitely trust Wayne to manage well.

We just need to make sure we don't compromise the future of our forward pack to get Taylor and not have a dominant forward pack.

 

[Wolfie]

Seriously.. Shane Webcke was the greatest goal kicker the club has ever seen. Now I want you to dispute my claim with stats. The onus is on the person making the claim. I want to understand how Roberts and Gillett will be better players. Prove that to me.

We are talking about Ash Taylor, not Shane Webcke. You cant back upwhat you say about Taylor, people dispute it so you just come up with smartarse comments.

Why on earth you are asking me about Gillett and Roberts? I havent said a word about them.

Your only argument against people who dispute your opinion on Taylor is to ask them for stats you know simply arent out there or are unrealistic to obtain. You say the onus is on others to prove their point, isnt it also on you to prove yours as well, or doesnt it work like that when you come out with stuff?

Oh, and as for Shane Webcke being the greatest goal kicker the club has ever seen, you made the claim, so according to your logic, the onus is on you to back up your claim.

 

[Lockysillegitimatechild]

First of all, let me say I enjoy debating with you. No smart arse bullshit, just opinions on the topic, thank you!

I don't want us to turn into the Storm. We have to play to our strengths, and without Smith and (thankfully) without wrestle, we need to combat it with our weapons, which we were close to do in 2015, not because we faced Thurston and Morgan, but more son because we just lacked something Taylor would have brought at the time... game control and proper kicking.

We have definitely regressed in my opinion, despite finishing higher on the ladder, we went out of the finals without ever looking likely, and while injuries played a role, we were utterly hopeless against teams with the will and ability to beat us.

Taylor is not the be all, end all solution, but we need what he brings, like we need forwards that will put him and Milf in a position to do what they are good at. I do think we have the latter potentially with Ofa, TPJ, Su'a and hopefully Lodge, Savelio and Mago will deliver as well.

Will we lose players as a consequence? Probably, as such is the world of the NRL.
Will we lose the players we really want to keep? I don't think we have to, and that is something I definitely trust Wayne to manage well.

Cheers mate. Glad I can add to the argument whether I'm right or wrong (I have never been wrong though (read in a sarcastic tone for added effect)).
Like I said, I agree with you that Taylor can add to this team something we are lacking-a kicking game. I will welcome him to the club wth open arms, make no mistake.

But.... this whole "we will let these 5 players go that we can live without"- to get him under the cap is not going to happen.

A few reasons:
1. We release players like Glenn (a loyal servant who just signed a contract this year) we will get a reputation that will hurt us in the long run
2. We are all assuming other teams want our players and are in a position to offer our players a deal, and that they wouldn't want to make us suffer and pay part of their contract anyway
3. If we lose these players we need to replace them, meaning that is $100,000 less off the salary cap anyway & we need to release another player
4. What club has won a premiership in the last 10 years when they have just started promoting juniors without making them EARN the right? It makes for a terrible culture, and culture has won more premiership then talent ever has. The reason this would happen is because we would be replacing these rep level players with these juniors, or we would need to release more rep players for basic nrl level players for depth.

Like I have said, I trust the coaching and recruitment department will make the right choice because they know the true contract values and what players are like behind the scenes ( and also because it's a win/win and a loss/loss no matter what road we take). I just hope we don't cut off our nose despite our face by getting into a bidding war...

 

[tommy]

It just wouldn't feel like an off-season if BHQ wasn't arguing the pros and cons of having Taylor in the team.

 

[Porthoz]

Cheers mate. Glad I can add to the argument whether I'm right or wrong (I have never been wrong though (read in a sarcastic tone for added effect)).
Like I said, I agree with you that Taylor can add to this team something we are lacking-a kicking game. I will welcome him to the club wth open arms, make no mistake.

But.... this whole "we will let these 5 players go that we can live without"- to get him under the cap is not going to happen.

A few reasons:
1. We release players like Glenn (a loyal servant who just signed a contract this year) we will get a reputation that will hurt us in the long run
2. We are all assuming other teams want our players and are in a position to offer our players a deal, and that they wouldn't want to make us suffer and pay part of their contract anyway
3. If we lose these players we need to replace them, meaning that is $100,000 less off the salary cap anyway & we need to release another player
4. What club has won a premiership in the last 10 years when they have just started promoting juniors without making them EARN the right? It makes for a terrible culture, and culture has won more premiership then talent ever has. The reason this would happen is because we would be replacing these rep level players with these juniors, or we would need to release more rep players for basic nrl level players for depth.

Like I have said, I trust the coaching and recruitment department will make the right choice because they know the true contract values and what players are like behind the scenes ( and also because it's a win/win and a loss/loss no matter what road we take). I just hope we don't cut off our nose despite our face by getting into a bidding war...

Sorry, I think I lost you here. Who are these rep level players we would be replacing with juniors? Hunt and Blair are gone, likewise Ese2 and Moga, and I hope we don't lose Glenn, whom would be the only one I would hate to lose, but would accept for what Taylor brings.

Our front row has been well below par for years imo, even if Blair was very useful with his experience and harassment of our opposition's halves.
It's not like we're letting Civo and Webke go to promote Ofa, TPJ and Su'a, whom have definitely proven to be capable at FG level (or Haas and Fifita, who still have to prove their worth against men).

P.S. I am never wrong either. This should be good! :p

 

[Lockysillegitimatechild]

Sorry, I think I lost you here. Who are these rep level players we would be replacing with juniors? Hunt and Blair are gone, likewise Ese2 and Moga, and I hope we don't lose Glenn, whom would be the only one I would hate to lose, but would accept for what Taylor brings.

Our front row has been well below par for years imo, even if Blair was very useful with his experience and harassment of our opposition's halves.
It's not like we're letting Civo and Webke go to promote Ofa, TPJ and Su'a, whom have definitely proven to be capable at FG level (or Haas and Fifita, who still have to prove their worth against men).

We'd have to lose one of Oates, Glenn, kahu at least. Plus a few proven players such as mead, sims, (wouldn't mind these 2 going admittedly), opacic, ofa or TPJ (please not TPJ). And on top of that 1 or 2 of these highly rated juniors MINIMUM.

A squad wins a premiership. Not just because of injuries but because of standards being raised and pressure from players below to ensure players perform. Not just a kicking game. That's what I want to make sure is weighed up with Taylor

I don't pretend I know the true value of players contracts but it's pretty obvious we would take a hit in our depth and quality somewhere else to get Taylor. The thing with tpa's is players and the nrl want most of it in their contract because if a company/player sponsor goes bust they won't see the money + they need to fulfil extra needs outside of footy to please the sponsor.