Melbourne Storm and the great celery hat debate

[Big Pete]

Re: Grand Final Discussion

I never said otherwise.

 

[Anonymous person]

Re: Grand Final Discussion

From what we heard/read there was nothing wrong with the actual contracts though. What was wrong was how the deals were secured - by storm officials and the player managers - and how the storm recorded the payments sent from the third parties and put them down as donations etc. None of that has anything to do with the players.

They signed for X amount, they got paid X amount, but the storm officials only declared X-Y amount to the nrl and wrote Y down as donations to the club etc.

My guess is that they had a contract for the salary paid by the storm - 300k a year for example - and then another for third party deals worth say another 300k a year. As a player you'd expect that. You wouldn't expect your manager and the club to then only submit the salary contract, which seems like what happened. they signed for 600k, they got 600k, so they're happy. Why would they know that their officials only registered that as 300k with the nrl?

 

[Jeba]

Re: Grand Final Discussion

From what we heard/read there was nothing wrong with the actual contracts though. What was wrong was how the deals were secured - by storm officials and the player managers - and how the storm recorded the payments sent from the third parties and put them down as donations etc. None of that has anything to do with the players.

They signed for X amount, they got paid X amount, but the storm officials only declared X-Y amount to the nrl and wrote Y down as donations to the club etc.

My guess is that they had a contract for the salary paid by the storm - 300k a year for example - and then another for third party deals worth say another 300k a year. As a player you'd expect that. You wouldn't expect your manager and the club to then only submit the salary contract, which seems like what happened. they signed for 600k, they got 600k, so they're happy. Why would they know that their officials only registered that as 300k with the nrl?

You've got it wrong I reckon. The Storm had 2 sets of books. You seem to be forgetting that.

 

[Anonymous person]

Re: Grand Final Discussion

You've got it wrong I reckon. The Storm had 2 sets of books. You seem to be forgetting that.

what exactly do you mean by "2 sets of books"?

im pretty sure thats just a nickname kinda thing for declaring 1 set of payments but using a different set in reality. theres no physical book that its all in, and then another book with the illegal ones. take this article for example:

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sp...ary-cap-breaches/story-e6frexnr-1225856965748

"The Storm has engaged in a long-term system of operating what might conveniently be called two sets of books," Gallop said.

"The breakthrough in the investigation was the discovery by the salary cap auditor and his team of a file in a seperate room at the Storm to the room that contained the file with the players contracts, outlining payments to the players not declared to us."

so there were the ones they declared, and the ones they didnt. seems like what i was saying?

 

[dukey]

Re: Grand Final Discussion

Regardless of this argument, if the players didnt know of the rorting, i can understand the sentiments that Hoffman has voiced in saying that in the players minds, they worked hard and deserved their wins.

Some players had to have known of the rorting... particularly Smith, who was heralded by the Daily Telegraph as being the 'answer to greedy player agents' when he began managing himself in late 2008.

 

[OXY-351]

Re: Grand Final Discussion

how do you know they wouldnt have done the same in 2007/2009?

Would you say it was an abosulte certainty?

 

[dukey]

Re: Grand Final Discussion

what exactly do you mean by "2 sets of books"?

im pretty sure thats just a nickname kinda thing for declaring 1 set of payments but using a different set in reality. theres no physical book that its all in, and then another book with the illegal ones. take this article for example:

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sp...ary-cap-breaches/story-e6frexnr-1225856965748

"The Storm has engaged in a long-term system of operating what might conveniently be called two sets of books," Gallop said.

"The breakthrough in the investigation was the discovery by the salary cap auditor and his team of a file in a seperate room at the Storm to the room that contained the file with the players contracts, outlining payments to the players not declared to us."

so there were the ones they declared, and the ones they didnt. seems like what i was saying?

So... there were undeclared payments to the players outside the salary cap. How do you think this doesn't constitute wilful cheating?

 

[fredie]

market values . whats that about ??

 

[Anonymous person]

Re: Grand Final Discussion

So... there were undeclared payments to the players outside the salary cap. How do you think this doesn't constitute wilful cheating?

where did i say it wasnt cheating?

 

[Nashy]

This argument again? Lol.

 

[GCBRONCO]

where the gain for Melbourne was in the fact they were able to retain these players. They were not however any different as players than they were the year before and the year before that etc. They simply were valued higher and that was the result of a crap system which rewards failure and penalizes success..what an idiotic system. Naturally it favours the Sydney sides...

Except since the salary cap all teams had to endure this and while I dislike the system its the one inplace and doesn't give clubs the right to outright cheat it just to retain the bulk of their side in a manner that is outright wrong. As for the claim players don't gain an advantage by having these players in their side, wrong, do you think Alan Langer would have benefited the same if he had say Shane Perry, Peter Wallace, Corey Norman or Ben Hunt in 1992/1993/1997/1998 in those premiership years compared to having someone say of the quality of Kevin Walters alongside him in the halves? Even if the players knew nothing about it they still directly or indirectly benefit having those players they shouldn't have had.

Some clubs have cheated outright and some like Canberra were in the early 90's weren't products of outright cheating, but rather of their success but still deserved to be punished to an extent and certainly not to the level of Canterbury and Melbourne have been. the Broncos may have gone over the cap in 2006 but you can't accuse them of being outright cheats given the real circumstances of how they went over. Over the years the Broncos have had to let quality players such as Trevor Gillmeister go after premierships which has hurt the playing squad, AP craps on about all the players the Storm lost during the cheating period, other clubs also who have won premierships have had to lose players afterwards because of salary cap restrictions in legitimate fashion and for those I feel sorry for, even feel some pitty for those who go over slightly through barely any fault of their own, but not those who blatantly cheat.

 

[Huge]

G suss...that is all ancient history ffs...they are there on their merits, against tremendous odds and done FAIRLY and squarely..they have been stringent observation all year and got there with some good players and a bunch of reservers,kids and rejects...this year is what it is all about, not what happened years ago ffs.....they are deserving of admiration and not having to listen to a bunch of neville neverwasbes banging on about what happened years ago. There is no guilt now and they are fully deserving of praise and admiration for doing what we could not do...what they did in the past has zero to do with this years effort...I did not think they could get there this year,I was utterly convinced of that in fact and they have proven me wrong just like they have proven this year that they are fitting grand finalists....

time to say well done even if you dislike them for what happened years ago...why, because that's exactly what the better man or woman does...

 

[GCBRONCO]

Personally Compound Fracture I got no problem with them moving on since that time frame of cheating, but that doesn't mean they can't still be criticised for doing so during that period, I still hear Canterbury copping it. They have done well to get there this season I grant that and I wish them the best in the Grand Final, still(and unrelated at present to the Salary cap discussion) I dunno if they went against tremendous odds this season as you make it out to be when you got a spine containing Slater, Cronk and Smith, other clubs have made the finals with a lot less in their spine to work with. Tremendous odds to me for example would be a team that has suffered severe injuries and yet managed to get there.

Do I believe in second chances yes, but you aren't given them you earn them(and not just through making or winning a Grand Final) just like you have to earn respect back and that takes time.

 

[Coxy]

My cats breath smells like cat food

 

[Kaz]

Re: Grand Final Discussion

From what we heard/read there was nothing wrong with the actual contracts though. What was wrong was how the deals were secured - by storm officials and the player managers -

You do know that Cameron Smith doesn't have a manager & does all the deals himself.

 

[Anonymous person]

Re: Grand Final Discussion

You do know that Cameron Smith doesn't have a manager & does all the deals himself.

"all the deals"? he has signed a single deal (probably 2 now though, and the latest wouldve been after the rorting was discovered) since 2008. that was til the end of 2012.

his previous manager had already arranged the deals if what ive read this afternoon is to be believed (his manager said he set up the potential gold coast titans deal for him as well, but smith denies he was ever told about it), and then he did actually get a new manager:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/titans-lose-patience-with-smith/story-e6frg7n6-1111118195528

"It is understood the Titans withdrew their $3 million, five-year offer over frustration with Smith's new manager, Isaac Moses. Moses last week replaced Jim Banaghan, who negotiated the initial offer."

the whole "he did all his deals himself" thing seems to just be a rumour, one without much merit after doing a little research. i mean, hes even on Titan Management Pty LTDs website under clients....

http://www.titanmanagement.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=408&Itemid=73

also doing a little more diggin, i found this:

http://www.theage.com.au/rugby-leag...ayers-knew-of-cap-rorting-20100715-10bru.html

"The report says three players - Inglis, Smith and Slater - had signed or had their managers sign "side letters" with the Storm that showed amounts to be paid well in excess of the contracts they had lodged with the NRL."

 

[m1c]

Re: Grand Final Discussion

From this debate we can only make one conclusion: KHunt is clearly better than Slater. He didn't have to rely on under-the-table payments to play good footy.

 

[Je$ter]

Everyone:

Get. Over. It.

What's done is done. It's in the past. The Storm comply now despite the scandal and I for one hope they put a whopping on the Bulldogs.

A club that has developed nearly their entire 1-17, with those that aren't (Lowe, Norrie) becoming better footballers because of the systems in place down there, against a team that has maybe 2 local juniors in their side who use(d) the motto "bred not bought," child please.

Melbourne are the benchmark and have a club culture and attitude every other club in the nrl would be jealous of. And don't come at me with that "ohhhh wrestling ruins the game" shit cause every other club followed suit.