NRL General Discussion Thread - 2020

kooly87

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Yes. We have. And I have said this in previous posts, although Gilletts was nowhere near as blatantly obvious as burgess' or inglis'. And not to the tune of $2.5 million..... Souffs and possibly the roosters are the only teams that would get that, possibly Melbourne too if c Smith had coffee with greenberg..
This is just nonsensical rambling. The relief for Gillett would have been higher if his salary was higher or the remainder of his contract was longer. That's circumstantial, nothing else.

I can't comment on the severity of Gillo's shoulder as I don't know anything about it, but he's got a serious history with his neck and it was clearly hampering him last season. I think objectively I could see why opposition fans would say that was a bit suspicious, but I'd say to those people the same thing I'd say to those who doubt Burgess etc: trust that the Doctors who actually make these decisions have acted with integrity. Their professional credentials and standing should justify that.
 
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You are clearly suggesting if his injury can be fixed, he shouldn't be eligible for cap relief. So what's he supposed to do not get it fixed?

I am not comparing the injuries, again you are away off track and introducing as many red herrings as you can. Injuries don't need to be compared.





You claimed if a player isn't as good or if they keep playing they shouldn't be eligible- I just pointed out Yow Yeh played again and 'wasn't as good." He fails your test.
Again, did I say he wasn't allowed to get rehab? No, I didn't. He can get all the rehab he wants but if he gets rehab and is able to play again why is his wage not counted on the cap as the injury didn't force him to retire. Yow yeh wasn't able to play again, he tried, he changed positions, he never made it back to nrl level and couldn't play a full game. Burgess did, and there was no suggestion from any orthopedic surgeon or specialist in any area that he couldn't play at that level again. What they did say, this is souffs Dr I believe, was that his injury would effect him later in life if he kept playing. Just like the knees, hips and shoulders of plenty of other retired nrl players. His shoulder was bad, but let me put it this way, Sean o'sullivans knees will be just as bad. Should he medically retire? Additionally, he had shoulder problems when he signed his contract, so it also fails the other criteria the nrl trumpeted "it's a new injury". Technically, every injury is a new injury by that criteria and any player that gets injured during a contract and is over 30 will have ticked the same boxes burgess did.
 
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This is just nonsensical rambling. The relief for Gillett would have been higher if his salary was higher or the remainder of his contract was longer. That's circumstantial, nothing else.

I can't comment on the severity of Gillo's shoulder as I don't know anything about it, but he's got a serious history with his neck and it was clearly hampering him last season. I think objectively I could see why opposition fans would say that was a bit suspicious, but I'd say to those people the same thing I'd say to those who doubt Burgess etc: trust that the Doctors who actually make these decisions have acted with integrity. Their professional credentials and standing should justify that.
No one is questioning the doctors integrity, although they are human and subjected to the same pressures and buckle to the same pressures as others (ever faked a sickie and got a sick note off your gp? Or you think every surgery is ethical, and patients don't go Dr shopping). But if the nrl and players used the word of the doctors as an assessment for when a player should retire you'd honestly see about 20% of the nrl retire this year. Some guys knees are completely shot by 25, if asked, which they won't be, the doctors would also say they should retire.
 

kooly87

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No one is questioning the doctors integrity, although they are human and subjected to the same pressures and buckle to the same pressures as others (ever faked a sickie and got a sick note off your gp? Or you think every surgery is ethical, and patients don't go Dr shopping). But if the nrl and players used the word of the doctors as an assessment for when a player should retire you'd honestly see about 20% of the nrl retire this year. Some guys knees are completely shot by 25, if asked, which they won't be, the doctors would also say they should retire.
I'm not sure what your point is? It really only seems to hurt your own argument because if 20% of the NRL are medically unfit to continue playing then that's a 1/5 chance that Burgess is in that boat. Those odds get even shorter because that 20% are likely to be made up of players 28-32, so again Burgess odds of his injury and retirement being completely legit only get even stronger.
 
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I'm not sure what your point is? It really only seems to hurt your own argument because if 20% of the NRL are medically unfit to continue playing then that's a 1/5 chance that Burgess is in that boat. Those odds get even shorter because that 20% are likely to be made up of players 28-32, so again Burgess odds of his injury and retirement being completely legit only get even stronger.
It makes your argument stronger that clubs could theoretically pick anyone from that 20% and "medically retire" them with their wage not counted towards the cap? Wow, that'll do me. What's the point of the salary cap then haha....
 

kooly87

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It makes your argument stronger that clubs could theoretically pick anyone from that 20% and "medically retire" them with their wage not counted towards the cap? Wow, that'll do me. What's the point of the salary cap then haha....
Honestly, your response is nonsensical but I'll try my best.

You seem to think Burgess and/or Souths have manipulated or cheated the rule here.

I'm simply saying that if by your own admission if 20% of the NRL should be medically retired right now, and it stands to reason that most of that 20% would be older players, then it's statistically very likely that Burgess would belong to that 20% and therefore it follows that it's highly likely by your own standards that he's not taking the piss and his injury and forced retirement are entirely legitimate.

I also think your numbers were an absurd overstatement, but that's beside the point.
 
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Super Freak

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The doctor said that Burgess could possibly continue playing after rehabbing the shoulder which would have taken a couple of years, although there was no guarantee and that if he did continue playing there was significant risk of permanent disability and not having full function of his shoulder.

The doctors, independent doctors I should add, were able to confirm that it was not a pre-existing condition.

He met the criteria for medical retirement.
 

BroncsFan

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What rubs me the wrong way is that we're already discussing 2021.

The season hasn't even started yet and the poor Gold Coast Titans fanbase have to suffer through another season knowing their best player has his bags packed to go join another club. It just makes it really difficult for their fanbase to get invested in this season and creates this scenario where they've got to try and win back their losses by signing a prospect like Tino Fa'asuamaleaui.

That may sound hypocritical from the Gold Coast, but none of these parties should be in this position. There should be a grace period where the clubs and the players can focus on the upcoming season and when everything has settled, then we can worry about free agency.

With the way everything played out, it came across like Sam Burgess was a shell of the player he once was so he was pressured into retiring. As soon as the NRL cleared his retirement, they went out and offered his money to Arrow and made it known they'd like to have him right away, breaking his contract with the Gold Coast.

Now I'm sure it didn't play out EXACTLY like that, but that's the impression I took from the news. Had their been this gap to distract from the cause and effect it wouldn't have been as glaring but this is just the lay of the land.

I'm trying to think of a scenario where it wouldn't be so on the nose. In the case of Souths, if one of your best players retires that late into free agency, it should just be an unfortunate set of circumstances. It's a shame but clubs always find themselves in these type of predicaments, you just have to wait for the appropriate opportunity to address the problem. Whether it was mid to late 2020 or if they could pick up a reject (like Brisbane did with Croft) that would have been acceptable. With the way it all worked out, it just exposed a major issue with the game and was a major turn off.

And I've got nothing against Souths, they played to the rules of the game and they came away with two excellent players. I don't think they've done anything wrong and I applaud them for their recruitment. I just don't think this should be allowed to continue in it's current format.

Especially when you get a Kalyn Ponga situation. I honestly think the game shot themselves in the foot in that 2016/17 pre-season when they allowed Ponga to sign that $3,000,000+ contract after two games. He wasted a year of his life waiting for the season to end so he could leave Townsville, that was awful for the NRL, especially since he's marketed as the best player in the game.
I agree that something desperately needs to be done, because the format as it stands is not working and it's creating huge discontent within the fan base.

I'd imagine the RLPA would state that allowing a player to negotiate a deal 12 months out provides security to players by knowing their future is sorted... I can see how this applies to lesser known players like the Tagatese's of the world who aren't really guaranteed a contract and would like as much time as possible to sort out a deal and secure their future. However in reality it is very rarely, if ever, the lesser known players that are signing deals 12 months in advance.

Instead it's the star players who are signing new deals 12 months out, because that is the time when clubs have the most cap available and can therefore splash the cash on a new star to build the club around... and it is more often than not the Taga's of the world that are scrambling for spots to fill in the club's quotas at the end of the period. So in a sense the RLPA's suggestion that it is protecting all players isn't really legitimate, because star players are pretty much guaranteed to get a contract and lesser knowns are scrambling at the end of their contracts.

The other issue with signing a deal 12 months out is the pressure applied to the existing club to release the player early so everyone can get on with life, but when does this actually benefit the existing club... they lose a star player, rarely get anything in return (player or cash) and are left with a ton of cap, but nothing to spend it on.

I'm unsure how they can resolve the issue without a nominated free agency period.

I think the best case scenario is a free agent period after the grand final, but that only gives about 4 weeks to when the contract expires on November 1, which is unfair for the borderline NRL players.

To alleviate this they could allow negotiations to commence from July 1 onwards of their last contract year. This would be similar to the NFL, NBA, Football leagues, etc. where a bunch of transfers are agreed in principle and announced on day 1 of free agency (usually the big end contracts).

Would this create disruption from constant media speculation?? Of course it would, but at least it would be constrained to the last 6 months of the player's contract. In 2019 we've had nonstop speculation about Fifi, Staggs, Oates, Flegler, etc. and that was with the November 1 rule. Also in the AFL there appears to be speculation all year long despite them having a dedicated trade period (Dustin Martin from Richmond comes to mind).

If it is limited to the last 6 months at least the player would be required to play out the contract length... if Arrow signed with Souths on July 1 2020 there would be no speculation about moving early, because he is literally not allowed to move from June 30 onwards. There would be speculation about Arrow leaving for all of 2020 leading up to it, which would piss off Titans fans, but at least they would have some confidence that they might retain him... that glimmer of hope that he hasn't signed yet.

I think they should also allow player trades up to June 30 for each year (they basically do anyway, but they should formalize it)... again in the Arrow case if Titans realise they are not going to sign Arrow during 2020 regardless of the offer, then they could at least look to setup a trade with Souths to get something out of it.

I would also allow transfer fees to be off the cap. If a rich club (Souths) is willing to pay Titans $1m or so to get Arrow early they should be allowed to do so, because at least the Titans would be getting something for originally identifying the talent. Also it's not like rich clubs aren't getting the players they want anyway... Matterson leaving tigers early because he wondered around training with the shits. Tigers get nothing for having identified the talent and Eels get a shiny new player with zero outlay... make the eels pay a premium to get Matterson rather than letting him walk for nothing.

I keep mentioning the Titans, but imagine if Fifi signed elsewhere. The pressure would be on us to release him and let everyone get on with it.... but that doesn't favour us in any way and would only strengthen one of our rivals at zero cost to them.
 
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kooly87

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I really like the idea of player trading, whether that was just in a trade window or even during the season too.

The logistical side of making it work within the salary cap can be solved. Dozens of sports with salary caps have similar arrangements. The AFL in Australia has similar arrangements, so making it work logistically and fairly isn't an issue that can't be solved.

I think it would be a huge help to a club who needs to cover a gap in their roster in the short term rather than being unable to trade and fill that gap, and continuing to struggle all season. It creates more competitive sides and more competitive games which is good for everyone.

Similarly, it would help alleviate some of the sense of injustice fans often feel when a club comes along like Souths recently with Arrow and ensures that if they want to get him early, they'll have to take a hit to their own roster that the Titans agree with to achieve it, rather than just getting some cap relief in January when it's too late to use that cap space to sign another player anyway.

I imagine the RLPA might fight this as for many players being traded around to other clubs or interstate will no doubt cause problems, but as the game becomes increasingly professional and players are increasingly well paid for their services, this is a reality they may just need to accept at some point.
 
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BroncsFan

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I imagine the RLPA might fight this as for many players being traded around to other clubs or interstate will no doubt cause problems, but as the game becomes increasingly professional and players are increasingly well paid for their services, this is a reality they may just need to accept at some point.
In regards to the last point I would say this can be resolved by needing mutual agreement from all parties (clubs and players).

I think this somewhat happens in the AFL where a player will nominate a number of teams they are happy to go to... and it pretty much happens in soccer as the player has to agree to the contract terms from the new club in order to facilitate the move. I think in the NBA, NFL, etc. it's more like the clubs agreeing to take on the existing contract so the player doesn't really get a say.

This could be assisted by allowing transfer fees... if the titans don't want any of the Souths players being offered or none of the Souths players are willing to move then Arrow could be traded to Souths for a transfer fee (separate from the cap). It would give the titans something for their bottom line (which let's face it a lot of clubs need help with), free up some cap if they want to look for a replacement from another team and at least make Souths pay out the nose to get a player they desperately want.

You could actually create a scenario where some clubs look to develop and "sell" players as a revenue stream
 
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Big Pete

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The Cowboys could and probably should have used him more than they did. That wasting of the year for Ponga is on Paul Green.
If neither party was in that situation, Ponga may have forced his way into the fullback position from the get go. As it stood, he had a premiership winning player ahead of him and it was difficult to justify the investment when Ponga wasn't exactly demanding selection with his form.

As it stood, seven games for a rookie that had his bags packed is pretty fair, especially when Ponga's record that year was 2-5.
 

kooly87

NRL Player
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In regards to the last point I would say this can be resolved by needing mutual agreement from all parties (clubs and players).

I think this somewhat happens in the AFL where a player will nominate a number of teams they are happy to go to... and it pretty much happens in soccer as the player has to agree to the contract terms from the new club in order to facilitate the move. I think in the NBA, NFL, etc. it's more like the clubs agreeing to take on the existing contract so the player doesn't really get a say.

This could be assisted by allowing transfer fees... if the titans don't want any of the Souths players being offered or none of the Souths players are willing to move then Arrow could be traded to Souths for a transfer fee (separate from the cap). It would give the titans something for their bottom line (which let's face it a lot of clubs need help with), free up some cap if they want to look for a replacement from another team and at least make Souths pay out the nose to get a player they desperately want.

You could actually create a scenario where some clubs look to develop and "sell" players as a revenue stream
Your last point is a really good one. Just have to be careful that the top end clubs don't go and buy and hoard up all the talent like Chelsea in the EPL because that would definitely hurt the game.
 

Big Pete

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I loved this moment. By this point I had been to four games that went down to the wire and Brisbane had lost every single one. The worst of which happened earlier that year against Penrith where they stole it.

Rocking up to Suncorp I wasn't sure what to expect. The Titans had easily accounted for Brisbane earlier in the season at Suncorp and coming off of an Origin loss it felt like the game could go either way.

Brisbane had a few outs and it just seemed like it wasn't going to be their night when Prince danced his way over not long before full-time. Then out of no where Taylor forced Prince off the field with a big hit and the big fella did a giant swan dive to take the game into golden point.

The way the forwards drove the ball forward was inspirational, they ran rough shot and put Lockyer into position for the kick. Like clockwork, Lockyer calls for the ball, kicks it and from my vantage point, the ball just disappeared.

I was expecting to see it come out the other side, but there was a delay and the ball finally emerged. No one in our section knew what had happened until the fireworks went off and the players started celebrating in the middle as DJ Ortiz pumped the stadium.

Watching it back was unbelievable, I've never seen the ball hit both uprights and then the cross-bar. It was one of those moments I knew I would never forget.

Finally after having to endure Mark Riddell's salute, Morris' leap, the Bowen-JT combo and a Wallace field goal, finally I got to experience that moment.
 
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ningnangnong

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Rabbitohs insider report - look out for an article on Braidon Burns in the coming days. He's currently at Reddy Oval being interviewed by a journo.

Stays on here.

ning out.
 

Foordy

International Rep
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The Rabbitohs are reportedly going to move Murray to either the left or right edge to replace Burgess or Sutton
 

Foordy

International Rep
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Courier Mail reporting that the NRL are going to crack down on trainers being on the field (coincidentally bringing Langer into it, before burying the fact that a Keary kick hit a Roosters trainer during the GF, towards the end of the article)

new rules are that trainers can only enter the field for three "tactical opportunities" per half ... they can still enter at stoppages to attend to injured players.

clubs face fines of 10k if they fail to comply

 

theshed

NRL Player
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I completely agree with getting trainers off of the field. what a gee up. We’ve been the the biggest perpetrators too.

I love Alfie but how long he’s in the field is taking the piss and our halves and onfield directing has been abysmal even with him there so it’s obviously not helping.
 

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