Religion and Politics

Morkel

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Here's the thing about not knowing if there is a God.

We cannot disprove a God exists.

There is more evidence of a God that doesn't give a shit, then a loving God IF such a powerful entity does exist. Far far more evidence in that direction.

At that point, it doesn't matter if there is a God or not. He's left us here to our own devices, so let's try and acknowledge our shared humanity and get the job done without him.
What is the evidence that points to this?
 

I bleed Maroon

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The fact the Roosters have won 3 premierships since our last. If that's not a sign that God doesn't give a shit, then I don't know what is.
God doesn't give a shit because there is no God to give a shit. It's just you and the rest of us accidental biologicals.
 

Broncapz

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What is the evidence that points to this?
The complete lack of singular, coherent guidance.
Natural injustices. Birth defects, childhood cancer. Prayers not being answered. Mental illnesses. Disease bearing insects. Tooth Decay. Slow deaths. Natural disasters. Poor quality of life for those who do not have the benefit of technology from those who came before them. Ancient life was harsh and unforgiving. 50% of children never made it to 12 in old times.

Many design flaws within the "intelligent loving design" itself.

I'm failing to see the loving God.

Assigning faith or complete desperation as the only means for him to be apprant to an individual.
 
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Huge

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Actually, I have explained what constitutes atheist propaganda, just as I have repeatedly answered the question on whether God exists. I'd thank you not to lie.

You are constantly making claims of what I believe, my motivations, that are completely untrue, even though I have clearly spelled out what they are in this very thread. You proclaim how I live, how I father my children, with zero knowledge on the subject. And you have done the same with an unknown footballer to which you can't possibly have any information about. So tell me, where are you getting your information from?
Ok, just give us a quick recap. What is 'atheist propaganda' . Oh, for fucks sake keep it short too.
Give us a couple examples and explain exactly where we are getting it from. You did answer whether god exists or not with 'I don't know'.

You also claim you believe in a god some of the time. You appear to be extremely confused and angry at those that are certain a god doesn't exist. I'm not dismissing it completely in the same way science doesn't claim absolute certainty about it's findings.

I'm not making claims about what you believe, I'm quoting you !!!! You really appear to have no idea what you believe. Some of the time you believe in something for which there is no evidence and that is hardly a good thing.
 

Morkel

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Ok, just give us a quick recap. What is 'atheist propaganda' . Oh, for fucks sake keep it short too.
Give us a couple examples and explain exactly where we are getting it from. You did answer whether god exists or not with 'I don't know'.
The worrying thing about the below is that I guarantee many people on here will nod and say "but that is true", which is a fascinating, yet concerning example of a lie being repeated enough for it to become truth.

* Anyone with faith is holding their beliefs against logic. Any logical person should realise that there is no such thing as a higher power.

* Religion and science are incompatible.

* The only reason people are religious is because they were born in to it and don't know any better, or were brainwashed while in a vulnerable state.

* Religion only cares about profit and power. People are suckered in through pressure or have their fears preyed on, in order to fleece them.

* Religion is about oppression & control. Oppressing minorities, women, forcing their beliefs on the greater society in order to control them.

That's just the start, but hands up if you got 5 out of 5 there? Congratulations, that's how propaganda works.

You also claim you believe in a god some of the time. You appear to be extremely confused and angry at those that are certain a god doesn't exist. I'm not dismissing it completely in the same way science doesn't claim absolute certainty about it's findings.
You've missed the mark entirely. Again. My frustration is not aimed at those that reject the possibility of a higher power. It is at those that stereotype those that do, that believe everything they read about religion, project it on to those of faith, and dismiss their values completely, regardless of whether they have merit.

I'm not making claims about what you believe, I'm quoting you !!!! You really appear to have no idea what you believe. Some of the time you believe in something for which there is no evidence and that is hardly a good thing.
So which of these are based on "quoting" me?

You assume the existence of a god as a fact and then disregard all other evidence as my friend does with global climate change.
Never have claimed it as fact.

There's absolutely no doubt Morkel has done everything in his power to push his offspring away from religion. They will no doubt rebel when approaching adulthood. Fortunately it's not as easy these days to indoctrinate your children if they remain part of mainstream society. Morkel would no doubt live off grid and inculcate his children if he could. He'd try and 'shield' them which is another way of saying he'd prevent them hearing reason and logic. Religions dying in the free and educated world and there's hope for Morkels offspring. Let's just hope the damage he's doing with his fantasy world and religious blither is something they can overcome.
Hilariously wrong.

Sadly, despite the obvious intelligence Morkel has he cannot see through his fear. The thought that he's finite, unimportant to the universe, only got a few short years left before he never really existed are so terrifying to him that he will suspend his powers, his mind which I believe is very powerful. It must be so as it overpowers his ability to think critically and allows one of the most amazing and twisted fantasy stories to be preeminent in his thinking.
Once again projecting the propaganda about the fear of death on to me, despite fear having zero motivation for me.

Oh, I know the fear of dying and this is all you get is what underpins your belief.
More!

Morkel is terrified of dying like any rational person is. Some of us can accept that on the evidence there is nothing but this existence. He cannot because he believes he is special and therefore there must be an afterlife. He's special all right.
And more!

Despite my posts never indicating any of the above, you are claiming to have posted these based on my own quotes. It's almost as if you're projecting stereotypes on to me. Almost as if you've been conditioned to believe that all religious people believe certain things and are motivated by certain things.
 
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Morkel

International Captain
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The complete lack of singular, coherent guidance.
Natural injustices. Birth defects, childhood cancer. Prayers not being answered. Mental illnesses. Disease bearing insects. Tooth Decay. Slow deaths. Natural disasters. Poor quality of life for those who do not have the benefit of technology from those who came before them. Ancient life was harsh and unforgiving. 50% of children never made it to 12 in old times.

Many design flaws within the "intelligent loving design" itself.

I'm failing to see the loving God.

Assigning faith or complete desperation as the only means for him to be apprant to an individual.
To counter those:

* Religions from different civilisations, who never had any contact, and had no way of knowing each other's beliefs, often had striking similarities between their "God(s)". They may have attributed different names, appearances etc, but these are generally based on what their unique cultures valued.

* The negatives associated with human function are almost exclusively down to mechanisms that actually drove evolution, towards where humanity sits today. "Childhood cancer", I know that is a classic meme used against religion, like what God would force that upon a child and their family? The reality is that cancer is just one of many ways that cellular duplication, the spreading of life itself, can manifest. Without it, life does not exist beyond single-cell organisms. If at all.

* The Matrix explored the human condition and its suffering quite well - if everything was perfect, would humanity reject the notion? Where would the joy be? Where would the achievement, the reward for effort, the development and improvement?

One aspect of Christianity, that is shared with great number of religions, is the notion that God made the world not for him/her/itself, but for us. This is our world, it was given to us with every possible resource we would ever need, but also an instruction manual should we lose our way.

To that end, consider the Fermi paradox. With the trillions of galaxies, stars, planets, the universe should be teeming with life. So where is everyone? The existence of other life would not discount the notion of a creator, as our "world" extends beyond our planet, but it would appear that the odds for life occurring, let alone intelligent life, are pretty slim.

From there, the fact that we are literally made up from the particles of long dead stars and interstellar matter. The sheer complexity of our world. From the macro scale, right down to the microscopic. All just, what, a random lucky accident caused by the Big Bang? What's more, the further we delve in to it, the more it seems there are physics and mechanisms that allow us to continually advance, to find new solutions to problems that seemed impossible to overcome. Weird, counter-intuitive shit like quantum entanglement, a mechanism so impossibly tiny yet seems like it will enable us to do stuff that is just exponentially more powerful than can be done using the physics of a larger scale. Exactly as it would be had a creator given us every tool we would ever need.

Does any of this prove that there is a higher power? Of course not. But, at least in my opinion, it shows something far removed from a lazy, limited, uncaring God that just plonked us here to rot.
 

Huge

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To counter those:

* Religions from different civilisations, who never had any contact, and had no way of knowing each other's beliefs, often had striking similarities between their "God(s)". They may have attributed different names, appearances etc, but these are generally based on what their unique cultures valued.

* The negatives associated with human function are almost exclusively down to mechanisms that actually drove evolution, towards where humanity sits today. "Childhood cancer", I know that is a classic meme used against religion, like what God would force that upon a child and their family? The reality is that cancer is just one of many ways that cellular duplication, the spreading of life itself, can manifest. Without it, life does not exist beyond single-cell organisms. If at all.

* The Matrix explored the human condition and its suffering quite well - if everything was perfect, would humanity reject the notion? Where would the joy be? Where would the achievement, the reward for effort, the development and improvement?

One aspect of Christianity, that is shared with great number of religions, is the notion that God made the world not for him/her/itself, but for us. This is our world, it was given to us with every possible resource we would ever need, but also an instruction manual should we lose our way.

To that end, consider the Fermi paradox. With the trillions of galaxies, stars, planets, the universe should be teeming with life. So where is everyone? The existence of other life would not discount the notion of a creator, as our "world" extends beyond our planet, but it would appear that the odds for life occurring, let alone intelligent life, are pretty slim.

From there, the fact that we are literally made up from the particles of long dead stars and interstellar matter. The sheer complexity of our world. From the macro scale, right down to the microscopic. All just, what, a random lucky accident caused by the Big Bang? What's more, the further we delve in to it, the more it seems there are physics and mechanisms that allow us to continually advance, to find new solutions to problems that seemed impossible to overcome. Weird, counter-intuitive shit like quantum entanglement, a mechanism so impossibly tiny yet seems like it will enable us to do stuff that is just exponentially more powerful than can be done using the physics of a larger scale. Exactly as it would be had a creator given us every tool we would ever need.

Does any of this prove that there is a higher power? Of course not. But, at least in my opinion, it shows something far removed from a lazy, limited, uncaring God that just plonked us here to rot.
So many fallacies! The puddle thinks how perfectly the hole is shaped, it's depth and breadth so precisely fitted ! This hole MUST have been created for me, how else could it be that I fit so precisely?

The argument from incredulity!

A naturalistic explanation, complete with gaps is way more plausible than an appeal to an even greater mystery. You should just go with 'I don't know, we may never know' instead of inserting a god. It's illogical and without foundation. An untestable and unprovable piece of drivel.
 

Broncapz

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Religions from different civilisations, who never had any contact, and had no way of knowing each other's beliefs, often had striking similarities between their "God(s)". They may have attributed different names, appearances etc, but these are generally based on what their unique cultures valued.
We can see in each instance where a God(s) was used to explain a phenomenon, as our knowledge increased we found out the natural causes and using God to explain stuff has been a rapidly shrinking piece if a pie chart. Every single time, as we remove the curtain of ignorance we do not find a God hiding back there.

The negatives associated with human function are almost exclusively down to mechanisms that actually drove evolution, towards where humanity sits today. "Childhood cancer", I know that is a classic meme used against religion, like what God would force that upon a child and their family? The reality is that cancer is just one of many ways that cellular duplication, the spreading of life itself, can manifest. Without it, life does not exist beyond single-cell organisms. If at all.
When you're in charge of the very fabric of our reality, then this does not have to be. If there is nothing he cannot do, then this does not have to be. Mosquitos do not have to be disease carrying insects.

The Matrix explored the human condition and its suffering quite well - if everything was perfect, would humanity reject the notion? Where would the joy be? Where would the achievement, the reward for effort, the development and improvement?
We can create enough challenge and suffering within ourselves, when left to our own devices. We do not need the unnessary natural challenges that are created for us. Particualy for the undeserving.

From there, the fact that we are literally made up from the particles of long dead stars and interstellar matter. The sheer complexity of our world. From the macro scale, right down to the microscopic. All just, what, a random lucky accident caused by the Big Bang? What's more, the further we delve in to it, the more it seems there are physics and mechanisms that allow us to continually advance, to find new solutions to problems that seemed impossible to overcome. Weird, counter-intuitive shit like quantum entanglement, a mechanism so impossibly tiny yet seems like it will enable us to do stuff that is just exponentially more powerful than can be done using the physics of a larger scale. Exactly as it would be had a creator given us every tool we would ever need.
It's also quite possible we don't even have the knowledge yet to even form a theory that is close to the truth. For example, the simulation and computing theories wasn't known about till 20 years ago, it would have been an impossible hypothesis to make due to our lack of knowledge of our universe's potential. What other huge gaps lay in our knowledge that are preventing us from even hypothesising the cause of us? So so so many.

I refer to my first point. Everytime we've attributed something to be God (sick child, bad weather, day/night/stars) we've been proven wrong. That is the one constant abour our growing knowledge. It's a bit like pulling the curtain back on the Wizard of Oz.
 
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McHunt

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Ok, just give us a quick recap. What is 'atheist propaganda' . Oh, for fucks sake keep it short too.
Give us a couple examples and explain exactly where we are getting it from. You did answer whether god exists or not with 'I don't know'.

You also claim you believe in a god some of the time. You appear to be extremely confused and angry at those that are certain a god doesn't exist. I'm not dismissing it completely in the same way science doesn't claim absolute certainty about it's findings.

I'm not making claims about what you believe, I'm quoting you !!!! You really appear to have no idea what you believe. Some of the time you believe in something for which there is no evidence and that is hardly a good thing.
I prefer God botherers to tedious atheists. They seem like nicer people. Neither have a fucking clue, obviously. But do keep blithering if it makes you feel like a clever clogs.

Oh, and Climate Change: you don't have a clue about that either. You should start by admitting that instead of pretending you're on the side of "science" whatever the **** that means. If you think there's something that's being "denied" you might try to find out what that exactly is, and where the conversation about it is being held.

You might not cite Andrew Bolt as some kind of litmus test.

You have no idea what I think other than I've pointed out your knowlege on the subject is extremely superficial. I don't pretend mine is much better.

In my experience, overconfidence on both subjects is a rookie move.

I won't be responding to any further comments on this. It's divisive and unproductive.
 
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Huge

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I prefer God botherers to tedious atheists. They seem like nicer people. Neither have a fucking clue, obviously. But do keep blithering if it makes you feel like a clever clogs.

Oh, and Climate Change: you don't have a clue about that either. You should start by admitting that instead of pretending you're on the side of "science" whatever the **** that means. If you think there's something that's being "denied" you might try to find out what that exactly is, and where the conversation about it is being held.

You might not cite Andrew Bolt as some kind of litmus test.

You have no idea what I think other than I've pointed out your knowlege on the subject is extremely superficial. I don't pretend mine is much better.

In my experience, overconfidence on both subjects is a rookie move.

I won't be responding to any further comments on this. It's divisive and unproductive.
Bully for you!

I'm not sure what you base your overconfidence accusations on! I've NEVER claimed I understand the complexities of global weather. I just know that the people who study it, you know climatologists and weather/atmosphere sciences are likely to have a much better understanding. You really aren't very bright are you?

Atheists? Haven't got a clue? Again with the stupid!!! Atheists don't think the god claim is true. There's nothing after that ! What's to know beyond that and what fucking claim are these atheists making? Oh, that's right, no claims. Atheists have a clue alright because it's an extremely simple position. After that you have a person and we all know how flawed people are.

God botherers on the other hand are the truly clueless and most likely to misunderstand as they clearly demonstrate gullibility. ****, I'll take a roomful of atheists over a room full of gullible non thinkers. At least the atheists want proof of a thing and therefore more likely to reach sound conclusions.
 

Broncapz

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I prefer God botherers to tedious atheists. They seem like nicer people.
That totally depends on what region you're from. Try that in Africa or the Southern States of America. We're lucky here, because we get the watered down Christianity. We only get that watered down Christianity because people have been pushing back against religious insitutions for the last few decades.

Neither have a fucking clue, obviously
Having a lack of belief in mythology and magic instead of asserting one exists is a much more beneficial position to figure out the problems of the world. For example - We can start attributing things like behavioral problems to the brain and not evil spirits. We can see the sick child has an infection and that his illness is not caused by upsetting a higher being.

Athiesm isn't an assertion that there is no God, it's simply a lack of belief.

In my experience, overconfidence on both subjects is a rookie move.
Apply that same logic to Scientology, Islam or Mormonism. Judaism/Christianity fall under the same catagory of "man goes up alone to speak with god comes back with answers". Magic answers everything is not a position that will advance mankind.

I won't be responding to any further comments on this. It's divisive and unproductive.
Well I hope you enjoyed the read at least.
 
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Broncapz

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Oh, and Climate Change: you don't have a clue about that either. You should start by admitting that instead of pretending you're on the side of "science" whatever the **** that means. If you think there's something that's being "denied" you might try to find out what that exactly is, and where the conversation about it is being held.
Not many are left denying Climate Change. That is a point even most "deniers" accept. The argument is actually man's role in it.
 
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Huge

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Not many are left denying Climate Change. That is a point even most "deniers" accept. The argument is actually man's role in it.
To be fair I've encountered quite a few who are in the 'it's all just the natural cycle' category. I've asked how they know such a thing exists and with a straight face they say it's proven 'by science'!!!! When I point out that same science tells us that human influenced climate change is real the scientists 'are all in a scam or don't know what they're talking about'

They want it both ways😯
 

Renegade

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Does anyone care that scotty from marketing took a one week holiday in the xmas period with his family? I personally don't.
 

Nashy

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Does anyone care that scotty from marketing took a one week holiday in the xmas period with his family? I personally don't.
I find it pretty fucking shitty that he feels he has to apologise for going on holiday with his family. He wasn't doing anything about the fires here, he might as well at least get away for a few days and do nothing about it there.
 

holdzy89

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I find it pretty fucking shitty that he feels he has to apologise for going on holiday with his family. He wasn't doing anything about the fires here, he might as well at least get away for a few days and do nothing about it there.
He didn't even apologize. "Sorry if anyone was offended".

Not, "sorry I'm a shitty PM putting my head in the sand while the country burns. Sorry."

I hope his whole family gets gastro. Merry xmas **** face.
 

Nashy

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He didn't even apologize. "Sorry if anyone was offended".

Not, "sorry I'm a shitty PM putting my head in the sand while the country burns. Sorry."

I hope his whole family gets gastro. Merry xmas **** face.
I meant that apology. I'm not talking about his shitty politics, he's allowed to go on holiday just like any other employee is. Could have been better timing, but he's hardly the last PM to make a stupid decision.
 

Renegade

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He didn't even apologize. "Sorry if anyone was offended".

Not, "sorry I'm a shitty PM putting my head in the sand while the country burns. Sorry."

I hope his whole family gets gastro. Merry xmas **** face.
Why does he need to apologize for going on holiday?

You can absolutely castrate him for not purchasing our own equipment, for not formulating a better bushfire plan, for not meeting with fire chiefs prior to bushfire season, etc etc. Plenty of things you can throw stones at. Having a holiday with the family and being put through the ringer as a result of? Get fucked, everyone deserves time off with their family regardless of their position.

What do you expect him to do at this moment in time? Click his fingers and stop the bushfires? Throw on a suit and get out there amongst it (incredibly dangerous for someone that isn't trained)? Go back in time and purchase equipment?
 
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