The Federal Election

Who will you vote for in the 2019 Federal Election?

  • Labor

  • Greens

  • Liberal

  • Other


Results are only viewable after voting.

Morkel

International Captain
Staff
20,578
16,818
You're joking yourself if you think Australia doesn't NEED that mine. We have **** all sustainables thanks to the LNP. Now we are backed into a corner.

I'm glad my family will have job security in Mackay now.
From an economical point of view, I agree.

But @mitch222's comment was "LNP are fucked when there is no more resources to pull out of the ground in mining", like it's only the LNP that are reliant on mining. As to the mining tax, I am all for taxing the fuckers BIG, it's the country's resources, we should all benefit from them. But as we've already seen, these companies act just like all the multinationals - they just funnel the money overseas and end up with the books showing little to no profit, so it's just another "great in theory, does **** all in practice" policy.

And... coal. The Labor party are pushing environment. Climate change? Renewable energy? I'm not saying the LNP would do it differently, but claiming a political high ground and then bowing down to what is, literally, dirty money, is hypocritical for me.
 

Nashy

International Captain
Staff
38,702
13,478
Brisbane
From an economical point of view, I agree.

But @mitch222's comment was "LNP are fucked when there is no more resources to pull out of the ground in mining", like it's only the LNP that are reliant on mining. As to the mining tax, I am all for taxing the fuckers BIG, it's the country's resources, we should all benefit from them. But as we've already seen, these companies act just like all the multinationals - they just funnel the money overseas and end up with the books showing little to no profit, so it's just another "great in theory, does **** all in practice" policy.

And... coal. The Labor party are pushing environment. Climate change? Renewable energy? I'm not saying the LNP would do it differently, but claiming a political high ground and then bowing down to what is, literally, dirty money, is hypocritical for me.
No, it's not "great theory, does **** all". Mining keeps towns alive. You talk about all this money going off shore, but absolutely and utterly refuse to talk about that money being put into Australia, the amount of jobs it gives both directly, and indirectly.

It's that reason I'm not going into further discussion about it. It's quite clear that you will continue to refuse to look at how it actually DOES help the economy, and only want to look at where the profits end up. That's not the right way to look at it.
 

Porthoz

International Captain
Staff
So Libs spend less on schools and hospitals , therefore better economic managers?
I didn't say that at all. Labor's problem with expenditure is not education or health, it's on plenty of useless bottomless pits they throw way too much money at. It's on the inability to strike a balance and prioritise their expenditure and as a consequence try to retrieve more money from the businesses which drive most of the economy. Money which then doesn't get invested by those businesses and you get into a downward spiral.

Education and health are prickly subjects because they are costly. IMO, they are fundamental to a good economy. An educated healthy population, is a great stream of revenue and low costs for a government, but conservatives rarely have that kind of foresight.

You're joking yourself if you think Australia doesn't NEED that mine. We have **** all sustainables thanks to the LNP. Now we are backed into a corner.

I'm glad my family will have job security in Mackay now.
Of course we need the mine, but it has very little to do with sustainables, and everything with economy, because 90%+ of the coal will be going overseas.

How will you pay the ginormous costs of building sustainables if not for mining, which is currently Australia's lifeblood, and was the victim of various assassination attempts by Labor at the behest of the Greens?
 
Last edited:

Socnorb

NRL Captain
3,505
1,981
I didn't say that at all. Labor's problem with expenditure is not education or health, it's on plenty of useless bottomless pits they throw way too much money at. It's on the inability to strike a balance and prioritise their expenditure and as a consequence try to retrieve more money from the businesses which drive most of the economy. Money which then doesn't get invested by those businesses and you get into a downward spiral.

Education and health are prickly subjects because they are costly. IMO, they are fundamental to a good economy. An educated healthy population, is a great stream of revenue and low costs for a government, but conservatives rarely have that kind of foresight.


Of course we need the mine, but it has very little to do with sustainables, and everything with economy, because 90%+ of the coal will be going overseas.

How will you pay the ginormous costs of building sustainables if not for mining, which is currently Australia's lifeblood, and was the victim of various assassination attempts by Labor at the behest of the Greens?
Yeah, I don't agree with that at all, explain to me how Labor try to retrieve money from business.
I own and operate a small business.the only party from which I have received a real and tangible benefit was labor during the GFC. I know that the narrative is that the conservatives are better economic mangers. i think that it's a myth. example: save all that money downgrading tafe. Nek minnit No skills. how is that good long term economic management. The LNP are full of dubious short term solutions,typical of short sighted no vision accountants.
 

Porthoz

International Captain
Staff
Yeah, I don't agree with that at all, explain to me how Labor try to retrieve money from business.
I own and operate a small business.the only party from which I have received a real and tangible benefit was labor during the GFC. I know that the narrative is that the conservatives are better economic mangers. i think that it's a myth. example: save all that money downgrading tafe. Nek minnit No skills. how is that good long term economic management. The LNP are full of dubious short term solutions,typical of short sighted no vision accountants.
So you didn't read my post in which I say similar things, but you decided to disagree because LNP bad, Labor goood...

Higher taxes is how they retrieve more money from business of course.

P.S. Using the incentive provided by Labor during the GFC as evidence for good economic management is at the very least intellectually dishonest.
 
Last edited:

Morkel

International Captain
Staff
20,578
16,818
No, it's not "great theory, does **** all". Mining keeps towns alive. You talk about all this money going off shore, but absolutely and utterly refuse to talk about that money being put into Australia, the amount of jobs it gives both directly, and indirectly.

It's that reason I'm not going into further discussion about it. It's quite clear that you will continue to refuse to look at how it actually DOES help the economy, and only want to look at where the profits end up. That's not the right way to look at it.
I'm arguing the points @mitch222 made, one of which is that Labor are apparently better at managing the mining because they tax them more for the privilege. I said it doesn't work out that way, the "mining tax" doesn't do what it's supposed to.

I didn't even refuse to talk about the economical benefits, I said it was vital for the economy. I just said it was hypocritical for Labor to champion environmental concerns, and publicly lay a platform to preference the environment over "big business", but when push comes to shove, they are more than happy to green-light projects that do the exact opposite.
 

Nashy

International Captain
Staff
38,702
13,478
Brisbane
So you didn't read my post in which I say similar things, but you decided to disagree because LNP bad, Labor goood...

Higher taxes is how they retrieve more money from business of course.

P.S. Using the incentive provided by Labor during the GFC as evidence for good economic management is at the very least intellectually dishonest.
Stating that Labor didn't manage this countries economy well through the GFC is an outright blind lie.
 

Socnorb

NRL Captain
3,505
1,981
So you didn't read my post in which I say similar things, but you decided to disagree because LNP bad, Labor goood...

Higher taxes is how they retrieve more money from business of course.

P.S. Using the incentive provided by Labor during the GFC as evidence for good economic management is at the very least intellectually dishonest.
I was disagreeing with the bolded.
Labor are far from good at the moment.
I don't know about intellectually dishonest, what ever that means,It's just a fact that after 25+ years in business that is the only example that I can recall Government policy has had positive effect. I don't recall at any point being gouged by labor tax wise. I just don't buy the rhetoric. I know you'll say "neither do I."
My view is that LNP care little for small business. Name 1 thing apart from Howards gun control that has come from the LNP that has had any positive effect on Australian society.
 

Porthoz

International Captain
Staff
Stating that Labor didn't manage this countries economy well through the GFC is an outright blind lie.
I didn't state that. I stated that the mining boom is what saved us from diving into a depression like most other western countries, and Labor profited from it to look good.
 

Porthoz

International Captain
Staff
I was disagreeing with the bolded.
Labor are far from good at the moment.
I don't know about intellectually dishonest, what ever that means,It's just a fact that after 25+ years in business that is the only example that I can recall Government policy has had positive effect. I don't recall at any point being gouged by labor tax wise. I just don't buy the rhetoric. I know you'll say "neither do I."
My view is that LNP care little for small business. Name 1 thing apart from Howards gun control that has come from the LNP that has had any positive effect on Australian society.
Define positive effect. Is having lower inflation, lower unemployment, lower debt, higher GDP a positive effect on Australian society? Or are you talking about social benefits, Health, Education, Abortion, LGBTQI, Aboriginal, Immigration and Asylum, etc...?
I have plenty from the first part, while Labor is much better providing the second.

BTW, the LNP recently passed a bill to progressively reduce the Small Business Tax rates from 30% to 25% by 2022. Rhetoric you say?

upload_2019-5-1_13-19-8.png
 

Kimlo

International Captain
Staff
22,963
8,269
Brisbane
I did prove it.

Labor as Govt: Debt increases as consequence of more expenditure and less revenue.
Libs as Govt: Debt reduces as consequence of less expenditure and higher revenue.

The first could point only to correlation, the second establishes causation.

It is definitely not a long bow to draw to compare other western countries with similar party and govt structures.
The political spectrum in democracies is the same everywhere. The differences are found where in that spectrum parties find themselves, and of course individual policies influenced by local culture.

Republicans in the US are way further right than Libs are here, in the same way as Democrats are increasingly moving left, so they aren't great examples to use (The US is example to nothing really nowadays), but most European democracies would be a fair comparison to Australia, especially when used to demonstrate the exact same trends.
If the best evidence you have for LNP being better economic managers is a net debt and revenue/expenses over time graph and some sort of cross country left/right correlation then I'm sorry if I can't take your claim too seriously. That's also not enough evidence to establish causation LOL. There's so many other variables, selling off assets would show higher revenue in the short term but is not good economic management in the long term. It's basic economics, revenue generating assets should not be sold for short term gain. Looks great for the budget for that year, fucks up the country in the long term.

You said (implied) LNP are better economic managers and it is historically "very easy to prove".

Well go on, I'm waiting. Prove it. Show me how the LNP have better managed the economy in their time in government compared to Labor. Perhaps, just maybe, you're wrong here and just because the Murdoch media and the LNP constantly claim "Labor don't know how to manage an economy" is actually not true when the actual facts and figures historically show otherwise.
 

Nashy

International Captain
Staff
38,702
13,478
Brisbane
I didn't state that. I stated that the mining boom is what saved us from diving into a depression like most other western countries, and Labor profited from it to look good.
The mining boom had nothing to do with it. That's a shitty buzz word thrown around by politicians. Mining was making this country tonnes of money long before the GFC, and still does.

How can you have such hate for a political party, that you simply cannot admit that their fiscal management, managed to keep this country from recession.

The steps taken by Rudd's Labor is what saved this country. The problem wasn't bringing money into the economy, we already had that, it was managing a major crash of markets, including that sector. In that way, the crash hurt us a lot.

Yet, Labor managed us through it, with among the lowest debt/GDP ratio across the world. We didn't lose any banks, and very few citizens were affected in the way of losing their deposits into whatever they had invested. We kept our AAA credit rating through the entire thing, if the debt problem was such an issue, as LNP supporters would suggest, we would have lost that rating.

Rudd also convinced the yanks to bailout a large insurance company which had major ties down here. That's before even taking into consideration the things they did to stimulate the economy, and keep it moving.

I don't know how anyone can sit there, and look at us now and then, and think that what Labor did, was bad. It's fucking mental to not give them that credit.
 

Nashy

International Captain
Staff
38,702
13,478
Brisbane
Define positive effect. Is having lower inflation, lower unemployment, lower debt, higher GDP a positive effect on Australian society? Or are you talking about social benefits, Health, Education, Abortion, LGBTQI, Aboriginal, Immigration and Asylum, etc...?
I have plenty from the first part, while Labor is much better providing the second.

BTW, the LNP recently passed a bill to progressively reduce the Small Business Tax rates from 30% to 25% by 2022. Rhetoric you say?

View attachment 4984
Part of the problem is that the LNP rely on paper and numbers, but they can't think in the real world.

5% for Mum and Dad business' is next to nothing. It's a shit saving and doesn't help the people that need the most help. It's just the LNP pandering to the top of the scale again, and making sure it looks good on paper.

If you think that tax saving, which conveniently doesn't start immediately, is actually going to help those who need it the most, you're out of touch.
 

Porthoz

International Captain
Staff
If the best evidence you have for LNP being better economic managers is a net debt and revenue/expenses over time graph and some sort of cross country left/right correlation then I'm sorry if I can't take your claim too seriously. That's also not enough evidence to establish causation LOL. There's so many other variables, selling off assets would show higher revenue in the short term but is not good economic management in the long term. It's basic economics, revenue generating assets should not be sold for short term gain. Looks great for the budget for that year, fucks up the country in the long term.

You said (implied) LNP are better economic managers and it is historically "very easy to prove".

Well go on, I'm waiting. Prove it. Show me how the LNP have better managed the economy in their time in government compared to Labor. Perhaps, just maybe, you're wrong here and just because the Murdoch media and the LNP constantly claim "Labor don't know how to manage an economy" is actually not true when the actual facts and figures historically show otherwise.
I did prove it and showed causation LOL. If you don't understand how correlation / causation works, I can't help you.
If you don't understand the most elementary basics of a country's economy, I also can't help you.

I don't rely on Murdoch to tell me who is bad or good for the economy, but "perhaps" it's an nice straw man.
The facts and figures show exactly the opposite of what you claim, but hey keep riding that high horse of yours delivering plenty of bluster and zero actual evidence.

If you want to delve into the details, there is certainly plenty both sides could do better, and yes Labor's policies will often be better long term than the LNP's as I already argued with Socnorb Socnorb . That is in fact my whole point, but your anxiety about blaming LNP and elevating Labor "perhaps" doesn't let you see that.

Trying to imply selling assets is how the LNP made higher revenue and lower expense consistently throughout their years is your claim to prove btw.
 

Kimlo

International Captain
Staff
22,963
8,269
Brisbane
I did prove it and showed causation LOL. If you don't understand how correlation / causation works, I can't help you.
If you don't understand the most elementary basics of a country's economy, I also can't help you.

I don't rely on Murdoch to tell me who is bad or good for the economy, but "perhaps" it's an nice straw man.
The facts and figures show exactly the opposite of what you claim, but hey keep riding that high horse of yours delivering plenty of bluster and zero actual evidence.

If you want to delve into the details, there is certainly plenty both sides could do better, and yes Labor's policies will often be better long term than the LNP's as I already argued with Socnorb Socnorb . That is in fact my whole point, but your anxiety about blaming LNP and elevating Labor "perhaps" doesn't let you see that.

Trying to imply selling assets is how the LNP made higher revenue and lower expense consistently throughout their years is your claim to prove btw.
If you think a line graph over time government is in power is enough to show causation for something as complicated as a national economy, then okay...

There's no anxiety at all, and I'm not trying to elevate Labor anywhere, I'm disputing an inaccurate claim which you've went on to back with piss weak evidence. If that's your entire evidence of LNP being better economic managers and that's your "historically easy to prove" evidence then I'll leave the conversation there. You believe what you want to believe.
 

Porthoz

International Captain
Staff
You know what, I am leaving this discussion as it is, because this is about to turn into the same shit as my Bennett or Boyd opinions, where me saying that both parties have negatives and positives, will get turned into "Porthoz hates Labor and is a Murdoch puppet LNC lover", when it couldn't be further from the truth.
 

Porthoz

International Captain
Staff
If you think a line graph over time government is in power is enough to show causation for something as complicated as a national economy, then okay...

There's no anxiety at all, and I'm not trying to elevate Labor anywhere, I'm disputing an inaccurate claim which you've went on to back with piss weak evidence. If that's your entire evidence of LNP being better economic managers and that's your "historically easy to prove" evidence then I'll leave the conversation there. You believe what you want to believe.
It's not my entire evidence, but it is sufficient to support my claim at the basic level. At least I showed something, while you have done nothing but argue against it without providing a single shred of contrary evidence.

As I said in the previous post, I will leave it here as well.
 

Kimlo

International Captain
Staff
22,963
8,269
Brisbane
It's not my entire evidence, but it is sufficient to support my claim at the basic level. At least I showed something, while you have done nothing but argue against it without providing a single shred of contrary evidence.

As I said in the previous post, I will leave it here as well.
upload_2019-5-1_18-31-4.png
There's a shred of evidence for you.

Labor have always had better GDP growth for Australia while in government.
 

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create free account

Create an account on our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

Login or Register

Forgot your password?
Don't have an account? Register now

Twitter

Top