The Wrestle - Are we over-reacting?

[john1420]

First I want to be clear that I am not defending Melbourne - I hate Melbourne and will NEVER forget nor forgive what they did during the salary cap cheating years. Never.

With that said, the season is over and I am sitting home watching the 93 Prelim, Broncos V Dogs

While watching I made the point of noticing what stands out as particularly different to the game that's played now (I had ruck speed in reference to the wrestle in mind)

What I really noticed was;

1 - the ball was fed deeper into the scrums

2 - players actually played the ball with their foot, instead of waving at it

If I wasn't especially looking at the ruck I would not have noticed it as being different, so how different can it actually be?

What I did notice, only because I was paying particular attention, was the techniques employed in the tackle

Teams were still trying to slow down the play the ball back then, they just didn't use wrestling to do so

And I didn't notice any significant increase in play the ball speed

So if that's true, are we over reacting to the wrestle?

We speak of it as the biggest blight on the game, but is it really?

Or are we all jumping on the bandwagon because it's fashionable?

I have been following the Broncos since 92 and so I've seen plenty of footy, I'm far from ignorant of the game, but to be fair I don't know the game anywhere near as intimately as some of you guys on here

So I am interested in your opinions, particularly the opinions of the very knowledgeable folks, are we over reacting? Or am I missing something?

Put your Melbourne bias aside if you have one and ask yourself, is the wrestle really changing the fabric of our game? And when you answer that question, tell me :)

 

[Renegade]

IMO it's a couple of factors;

1. I think you are confusing the type of wrestling comparatively.

Back in the day it was simply about putting them on the ground or wrapping up the offload. It was a contest until the guy was on the ground.

These days, its about turning the guy around so he's facing his own line/or putting him on his back so he takes longer to get up - that is a different type of wrestling employed than the type 25 years ago.

2. Media coverage

Wall to wall 24/7 media coverage will ensure that any small issue is inflamed to a massive one. Forward passes always existed in the game, were they complained about as much? Probably, but not on a medium that allows 100k + people to talk about it all in the same instance. The more technology we introduce the more "mistakes" we are finding, but they always existed, they just weren't magnified to the degree they are now.

3. Players are athletes moreso than footballers nowadays

There's not much to add on this point, but it's easier to have athletes contort bodies if they've been built to perform such measures than it is to have footballers do it. Pure footballers just want to play, athletes want to maximize their athletic contribution and wrestling is a great way of doing just that (i expect this point to be debated).

Are we overreacting? Maybe, maybe not. IMO, it's more a case of 1) what you want to believe and 2) how you were introduced to the game, and when? if it was less than 15 years ago this is probably considered normal, but prior to that, then yeah wrestling is bad. There has to be a balance though - the rugby 7's are boring because it's constant end to end, it doesn't allow you to appreciate a tactic/play that opens up the field because there's always open field, conversely no one wants to see wrestlemania every time there's a game, but either extreme isn't good viewing.

 

[badyon]

Storm didn't have the best PTBS differential in 2017 (Average team play the ball speed versus opponent PTBS). They weren't even top 4. However, they were second in league in slowing opponent play the ball.

The key thing is - the Broncos had the worst PTBS dif in the league last year.



The main issues here for the Broncs -

-self important entitled players like Milf and Boyd taking 9678 seconds to play the ball each time, whilst all the time pissing and moaning at the referee about irrelevant shit,
-a forward pack that generally doesn't dominate nor get quick play the balls,
-WB not insisting on "rassle in the ruck".

I agree with op - I think it is an over rated topic - but we shouldn't be the worst team in the league at it.

 

[Cult]

Watch a 2017 Storm game after a 2015 Broncos game and come back to us. The difference is ridiculous.

 

[Mitchell_Broncos]

Watch a 2017 Storm game after a 2015 Broncos game and come back to us. The difference is ridiculous.

who do you like better ?

 

[Lockysillegitimatechild]

Storm didn't have the best PTBS differential in 2017 (Average team play the ball speed versus opponent PTBS). They weren't even top 4. However, they were second in league in slowing opponent play the ball.

The key thing is - the Broncos had the worst PTBS dif in the league last year.



The main issues here for the Broncs -

-self important entitled players like Milf and Boyd taking 9678 seconds to play the ball each time, whilst all the time pissing and moaning at the referee about irrelevant shit,
-a forward pack that generally doesn't dominate nor get quick play the balls,
-WB not insisting on "rassle in the ruck".

I agree with op - I think it is an over rated topic - but we shouldn't be the worst team in the league at it.

The storm twist and flip every tackle, the grand final showed it.

There are 2 things this stat does not show though:

1. The effort it takes to get into a position to play the ball quickly against teams. Every team wants to play the ball quickly correct? The coach says something along the lines of "play the ball in less then 3 seconds">player does what is required to play the ball in less then 3 seconds. The storm simply make teams work harder to get into those positions.

2. When the wrestle is used: A slow play the ball with the opponents team getting back after a long kick and good chase is worthless compared to a 3rd tackle half break by a big man with the teams players skittled while attacking the opponents try line. BUT, a ref is also hesitant to blow a penalty for a team who has a roll on (which has now been taken away anyway, it's a professional foul that has settled in our game thanks to the weakness of the nrl to stamp it out).

I am actually massively surprised the storm are in the top 3 for opponents play the ball slowness. My guess is Bellamy and co don't want to give he media any leverage or ability to call them out to refs. The problem for the storm every 3-4 years is that the fans eyes aren't painted on and the fans and media get sick of it enough with their success that they eventually get pressured into cracking down on it for 6-12 months. Then the cycle repeats....

It's the equivalent of diving in soccer. It's only illegal when it isn't well hidden.What annoys me more then the storm though is the weakness of the administrators/officials to crack down on it. It could have been stamped out in 1 season if they put their foot down early. Now it's an epidemic and will never go away.

 

[Foordy]

who do you like better ?

Broncos 2015 ...

in fact the Broncos and Cowboys matches that year were a perfect example of how rugby league should be played

 

[Mitchell_Broncos]

Broncos 2015 ...

in fact the Broncos and Cowboys matches that year were a perfect example of how rugby league should be played

round 3

 

[Allo]

I saw that table on the NRL subreddit. With our opponent's average, I get the feeling it's less that we're bad at wrestling (I know we don't focus/ like doing it), but also more how unfairly our defensive ruck gets controlled by the ref. We get hammered every game and so many teams get quick ptb's and catch us out. They probably do go more hand-in-hand than I'm conceding, but it's still an issue imo

 

[I bleed Maroon]

No, we are not overreacting. It is a blight on the game. I want to see quick play the balls and scrambling defence, not be sitting on the couch for 5 minutes waiting for old Cam Smith to get joe schmo flat on his back 5 times in a row. It is a tactic stamped sealed and delivered to serve the likes of Melbourne and only Melbourne. The rest of the comp be damned apparently.

 

[john1420]

Thanks @Renegade @babydon @Lockysillegitimatechild

For your well thought out replies - appreciated:)

 

[john1420]

Watch a 2017 Storm game after a 2015 Broncos game and come back to us. The difference is ridiculous.

Hiya Cult :)

As my post stated, I've been watching league for 25 years and I've seen my fair share of footy

Telling me to go watch footy isn't the answer, but I'd appreciate your analysis of the difference if you have the time to give it

Cheers mate :superhappythumbsup:

 

[john1420]

No, we are not overreacting. It is a blight on the game. I want to see quick play the balls and scrambling defence, not be sitting on the couch for 5 minutes waiting for old Cam Smith to get joe schmo flat on his back 5 times in a row. It is a tactic stamped sealed and delivered to serve the likes of Melbourne and only Melbourne. The rest of the comp be damned apparently.

Hey IBM,

I agree totally, I also want to see quick play the balls and scrambling defence, but I didn't really see that in the 93 Prelim either

Although I have been watching since 92, it's often hard to notice incremental change over 25 years, so with all the hullabaloo over the wrestle I thought it would be great to go back and look at a game from the good ol days before the wrestle

And what struck me most was how different it wasn't - sure, how the ruck was slowed down was different, but it still seemed to be slowed down, and the overall flow of the game didn't seem that different to me

Perhaps I chose the wrong game to watch? :glasscageofemotion:

 

[Cult]

Hiya Cult :)

As my post stated, I've been watching league for 25 years and I've seen my fair share of footy

Telling me to go watch footy isn't the answer, but I'd appreciate your analysis of the difference if you have the time to give it

Cheers mate :superhappythumbsup:

It's simple. 2015 Broncos were showcasing entertaining, ridiculously fast games that had every NRL fan excited. Opposition fans were actually happy to watch the Broncos play and were praising us which, as you know, is crazy because everyone hates the Broncos.

2017 Storm get two attempts at placing their opposition in the perfect spot during every tackle. They'll hold the player upright, the ref will call held and they'll take him to the ground. If the ref doesn't call held at that point its bullshit because it would have been called for every other team. Lets not forget the illegal tackling techniques they have introduced as well.

 

[Viti]

The biggest thing the storm do is get good first contact, once that’s done they look to hold the opposition up for as long as possible and get numbers into the tackle. Only once the ref has called held do they put them on the ground and do they start to peel away one by one.

For me our major failing points are the lack of good contact to begin with because of a lack of line speed and then the lack of numbers coming into tackles because we’re just simply coached not too.

 

[1910]

No, we are not overreacting. It is a blight on the game. I want to see quick play the balls and scrambling defence, not be sitting on the couch for 5 minutes waiting for old Cam Smith to get joe schmo flat on his back 5 times in a row. It is a tactic stamped sealed and delivered to serve the likes of Melbourne and only Melbourne. The rest of the comp be damned apparently.

When Super League enacted that people whinged too. That year in '97 had players diving at the legs of defenders to get a quick play the ball and the line was always going backwards.

 

[I bleed Maroon]

When Super League enacted that people whinged too. That year in '97 had players diving at the legs of defenders to get a quick play the ball and the line was always going backwards.

"People" being the butthurt NSWRL who couldn't quite believe that there was an element within the game that was willing to stand up to their bullshit. If only the clubs had such balls today, maybe the comp wouldn't be bordering on farce.

 

[Alec]

I hate wrestling and I also hated things like Wests Tigers submitting in tackles before even hitting the defence to get a quick play the ball back in 05 too. I want collisions, bit hits and driving tackles as much as possible.