When did the broncos lose their culture?

[BroncsFan]

So I'm bored and thought I would do a deep dive into this culture issue that is currently the hot topic for NSWRL media to heap on the broncos as if it is some new phenomenon.

Apologies in advance for the long post... but if you read my posts regularly you're probably not surprised :)

I have said a few times that I believe the genuine winning culture of the broncos died in 08... I use this as a generalisation to say that there appeared to be an attempt to bring through what was deemed to be a crop of young talent which first jumped onto the scene across the country in 08 when the Toyota Cup started, and basically the point in time when the NRL apprenticeship through reserve grade died (effectively Toyota Cup became reserve grade, with players bypassing reserving grade and coming straight into first grade).

It is not too dissimilar to what is happening now, except it is the 08 generation being moved on. The issue that I have with this period is all the legends who came into grade on the back of the golden generation and carried through that winning culture were too quickly phased out before they could pass it on to the 08 generation.. so the 08 generation effectively had to create their own culture.

I thought I would take a look at the losses over from 2006 until 2011 (when Lockyer retired) to see how quickly the new brigade were brought in for some of the legends that were in that 06 GF team. Table below has the key losses each year up until Lockyer retired and by the start of 2009 11 of the 17 in the 06 GF team had been moved on with the end of 07 being by far the biggest change losing Tate, Berro, Petero (absolute travesty to this day), Thorn and Carlaw... Karmichael and Carroll left at the end of 2009.

Year	Losses
2007​	Shane Webcke	GF Team
	Casey McGuire	GF Team
2008​	Brent Tate	GF Team
	Shaun Berrigan	GF Team
	Petero Civoniceva	GF Team
	Brad Thorn	GF Team
	Dane Carlaw	GF Team
2009​	Darius Boyd	GF Team
	David Stagg	GF Team
	Shane Perry	GF Team
	Ben Hannant	GF Team
	Michael Ennis
	Greg Eastwood
	Nick Emmett
	Joel Moon
	Denan Kemp
	Reece Robinson
2010​	Karmichael Hunt	GF Team
	Tonie Carroll	GF Team
	Dave Taylor
	Steve Michaels
	PJ Marsh
	Joel Clinton
2011​	Denan Kemp
	Ashton Sims
	Israel Folau
	Antonio Winterstein
2012​	Darren Lockyer	GF Team
	Nick Kenny
	Dane Gagai

The 2009 squad saw a huge introduction of the 08 generation with what I can see as 14 toyota cup players in the NRL squad (~50% of the squad), by 2012 I've got 20/29 players being 08 generation (~70% of the NRL squad) with the notable senior players being:
Hodgo, Petero (came back for 1yr, but damage had already been done), Thaiday & Parker - as those I would consider having the broncos culture
Other senior players being Hannant (had returned from the dogs), Peter Wallace & Scott Anderson
I have also excluded Te'o & Korbin Sims from the 08 generation count as they didn't come directly from the broncos NYC team, although Korbin was part of the broncos 20's team. With them added as "NYC graduates" it becomes 75% of the squad.

That's basically going from a handfall of young players prior to Toyota Cup to the majority being U20's graduates in 4 years... it's a huge turnover of the playing roster and a massive reliance on young players.

I'm thinking the turnover was also salary cap related. It's likely after the 08 toyota cup GF the broncos admin saw a crop of juniors coming through and figured they needed to bring them in as the new core with the intent they would be there for the next decade, and before they got poached by rivals. The issue is they left themselves with basically only Hodgo and Lockyer from the past to lead them, and Sammy and Parker coming along as leaders, but not the same level as those two.

If anyone is wanting to know what happened to the broncos culture they only need to take a look at this period... it also shows the impact that the salary cap has on squads and having to move veterans on before a team probably wants them to be moved on... I'd also flag a couple of very sloppy business decisions by the admin, most notably Petero and potentially Thorn (although he may have been hell bent on going to union at that point anyway).

I think the admin get a little too excited about youth coming through and probably need to be willing to take some losses and let a couple slip through in order to keep some veterans around (if they're the right veterans)... looking back a lot of that 08 generation failed to live up to the hype in the grand scheme of things.

Anyway it was pretty eye opening seeing how quickly a GF team was overhauled for the next new shiny toys :)

 

[holdzy]

2011 was a great year and was probably misleading about the clubs chances of success with the youth after Locky. 2011 and 2015 turned out to be outlier seasons, it seemed there was an attitude about that would carry on for years.

Curious how things would have turned out if we made and won the grand final in 2011.

 

[Mister Wright]

Great in-depth analysis. It is why a salary cap doesn’t truly work unless you have a draft. It stops teams from stockpiling the young talent & also has the reverse effect of saving teams from themselves of having too many young players in the team. It is a tough balancing act all teams must go through.

 

[hench2020]

Wayne Bennett is the Broncos. The Broncos are Wayne Bennett.

Man Utd have a similar "problem" with Alex Ferguson.

No matter who the coach is or how good the players are it just doesn't seem right.

 

[holdzy]

Wayne Bennett is the Broncos. The Broncos are Wayne Bennett.

Man Utd have a similar "problem" with Alex Ferguson.

No matter who the coach is or how good the players are it just doesn't seem right.

True to a large extent and Broncos botched his leaving both times. He did contribute to it though in fairness. It did put a crack in an otherwise pretty solid club ethos. On field mediocrity was tolerated for financial success.

 

[I bleed Maroon]

It was the 2006 premiership and Bennett's falling out with Bruno Cullen. Following those two events, Bennett departed and Cullen ceased giving a shit all the way to his departure, and left behind a culture of mediocrity and indifference to success that is anti-thetical to what the club was meant to stand for. Paul White it seems has just carried on that same toxic culture, holding up the clubs quarterly earning report up in front of the shareholders like a trophy of his own, forgetting that his job is to get the players to lift the actual trophy that matters.

 

[pennywisealfie]

Agreed with the 2008 thing.

 

[winslow_wong]

2015 was the last hurrah for mine. Mainly because Hodges was leading the team. He came up through the old school culture and had that winners mentality. Corey Parker gave it one last jolt but the culture was already on its way out especially with the way the grand final loss effected certain players.

 

[Crazy Sam]

Lost it in 2003 when we couldn't score more than 40 in any game and lost the last 8-9 games in a row to limp into the finals.

 

[Rico]

IMO We had a chance to wrestle the sliding culture back but the Mental weakness that followed 2015 has never been repaired and evidenced by the 2016 and 2017 finals exits which were through Lack of discipline and away from home capitulations respectively and both still remain. The the Completion of the berghoffer centre just gave average players an even softer edge as they thought they’d made by puffing their chest out in the car park hoping Chanel 9 would be there.

 

[Thelmus]

The biggest problem is a lack of resilience. It comes with younger teams. We need some good forwards to lead the way and some crafty backs to "pull a rabbit out of a hat" when needed, but that is not our lot.
We have spent a small fortune securing young players on the expectation they will naturally develop into great ones by themselves. This has put older players offside as they are expected to do more for less, and led to the complacency of these same young players as they become "indispensable" with their high salary.
The solutions to our current problems are not simple because this is not the only problem (if it were only so). Because we have a young team with young leaders, they fall into the trap of being tunnel-visioned in their strategies and tactics, never adapting to the flow of the game (if you want to see that, watch the knight versus raiders from last nights). They need a leader to not just get them to follow the coaches plans but to be strong enough to break with them as a team, as one when needed. This is a lot to ask of young leaders (or for that matter older leaders insecure of their place in the team).
Of course an experienced coach might try and give the team the flexibility to adapt. But we went a different way, forgetting we have no Cameron Smith, Billy Slater, or any other with strength of character to change direction of the ship, mid-course.
When asked one about the value of a good coach and a good captain, Wayne Bennet said (in res

 

[Sproj]

The biggest problem is a lack of resilience. It comes with younger teams. We need some good forwards to lead the way and some crafty backs to "pull a rabbit out of a hat" when needed, but that is not our lot.
We have spent a small fortune securing young players on the expectation they will naturally develop into great ones by themselves. This has put older players offside as they are expected to do more for less, and led to the complacency of these same young players as they become "indispensable" with their high salary.
The solutions to our current problems are not simple because this is not the only problem (if it were only so). Because we have a young team with young leaders, they fall into the trap of being tunnel-visioned in their strategies and tactics, never adapting to the flow of the game (if you want to see that, watch the knight versus raiders from last nights). They need a leader to not just get them to follow the coaches plans but to be strong enough to break with them as a team, as one when needed. This is a lot to ask of young leaders (or for that matter older leaders insecure of their place in the team).
Of course an experienced coach might try and give the team the flexibility to adapt. But we went a different way, forgetting we have no Cameron Smith, Billy Slater, or any other with strength of character to change direction of the ship, mid-course.
When asked one about the value of a good coach and a good captain, Wayne Bennet said (in res

I was enjoying reading this but then it stopped. We’re you writing this while trying to avoid a big ship and then said ship too you down?

 

[Thelmus]

Sorry, I meant to finish it but I was interrupted by some hungry cats and pushed send by mistake. Id only say to finish that Bennet when asked about the importance of a good coach or captain stated that a good captain was far more important. It was said by him in relation to langer but I believe he reiterated it for locker. I believe it's true and it corresponds pretty well with both our downward slide and our lack of premierships.
I believe in the long wrong both carrigan and croft will be exactly those types of leaders but right now they don't have the authority or wisdom to achieve what past captains have done.
If we could somehow lash out and buy a coydner or his ilk, with both the prestige and leadership this team needs, it might go a long way to fixing our problems.
I can see why we persisted with the captains we have. If glenn could stay on the field and lend authority to croft it might work too. Darius, in form was the right choice but can't lead when you are out of form yourself and struggling for selection.
This more so than anything else puts a line through most of the team. I think it's also important that we have leadership in both attack and defence. Hence, the co-captaincy of croft and carrigan. The problem is their age, youth and their newness to the team.
It's something that might right itself by next year, but I shudder to think what it might do to the young players to have a season like the last two rounds.

 

[lynx000]

It was the 2006 premiership and Bennett's falling out with Bruno Cullen. Following those two events, Bennett departed and Cullen ceased giving a shit all the way to his departure, and left behind a culture of mediocrity and indifference to success that is anti-thetical to what the club was meant to stand for. Paul White it seems has just carried on that same toxic culture, holding up the clubs quarterly earning report up in front of the shareholders like a trophy of his own, forgetting that his job is to get the players to lift the actual trophy that matters.

Actually, you might be surprised to know that is not his job, that job belongs to the coaching staff. His job is the administration and operation of the organisation with a very heavy focus on ensuring that the business runs at a profit and the financial outcomes are favourable for the shareholders. Once again, some semblance of thought and research on your part would go some way to avoiding you posting tripe.

 

[I bleed Maroon]

Actually, you might be surprised to know that is not his job, that job belongs to the coaching staff. His job is the administration and operation of the organisation with a very heavy focus on ensuring that the business runs at a profit and the financial outcomes are favourable for the shareholders. Once again, some semblance of thought and research on your part would go some way to avoiding you posting tripe.

Enjoy the ignore list. Blindside and Brent will keep you company.

 

[lynx000]

You can't hack a bit of valid criticism @I bleed Maroon, you are weak as. I shall thoroughly enjoy not having to read your crap.

 

[Unbreakable]

Not really relevant to this thread, but felt like posting it anyway.. I really wish Barba worked out for us.

That ankle injury he suffered in 2013 genuinely just ruined that move, he came to the Broncos in 2014 overweight and with no confidence in the ankle. We also had Hook playing him at Five-Eighth for portions of the season and dicking him around, as per program. And then Bennett comes in and ***** him off to make room for Darius.

Imagine what we could've had in 2015 with Dally M level Barba at Fullback, fully fit and firing Milford at Five-Eighth, peak Ben Hunt prior to losing his confidence. Would've been so fun to watch, and I think we would've won the comp.

Prime Barba would have been better for us than Boyd, despite how good Darius was in 2015-17. It may have completely changed the entire course of the clubs history if that ankle injury didn't happen.

 

[winslow_wong]

Not really relevant to this thread, but felt like posting it anyway.. I really wish Barba worked out for us.

That ankle injury he suffered in 2013 genuinely just ruined that move, he came to the Broncos in 2014 overweight and with no confidence in the ankle. We also had Hook playing him at Five-Eighth for portions of the season and dicking him around, as per program. And then Bennett comes in and ***** him off to make room for Darius.

Imagine what we could've had in 2015 with Dally M level Barba at Fullback, fully fit and firing Milford at Five-Eighth, peak Ben Hunt prior to losing his confidence. Would've been so fun to watch, and I think we would've won the comp.

Prime Barba would have been better for us than Boyd, despite how good Darius was in 2015-17. It may have completely changed the entire course of the clubs history if that ankle injury didn't happen.

This is true but barba probably would have bashed his mrs while out celebrating our gf win.