CONTROVERSIAL The Crux of our Development issues?

[Fitzy]

What is the Crux?
Our shitty coaching?
Poor systems?
Misfortunes?
Wrong Tactics?
Salary cap mismanagement?

I guess to an extent you could say them all. But there is one in particular yet to be mentioned that I think is so important for not only the sufficient development of our clubs players but levelling the differences of QLD clubs and NSW clubs. The Q-cup in my mind just isn’t working and I think we need a genuine reserve grade competition.

What will this look like?
17 teams (2023)
- Broncos
- Cowboys
- Titans
- Dolphins
- Warriors
- Mounties (/Bulldogs)
- Storm
- Knights
- Bears
- Blacktown Workers (/Manly)
- Newtown (/Sharks)
- Eels
- Dragons
- Panthers

Q/NSW cup remains as is with teams and NRL clubs use relationships with feeders to develop grass roots and academy prospects properly. Will just be of a lower quality.

In the NRL reserve grade comp most likely clubs like Newtown and North Sydney will want a piece of the action and fans will want to see that but NRL clubs would love the extra broadcasting money of this comp. So will likely be all 17 NRL teams same brands.

Why change?
I know quite a few of you couldn’t care less about the current reserve grade systems in place and I guess in a way that’s the issue. Currently, the Q-cup offers up an experience to fringe and devolving players that just isn’t desirable. Playing for clubs with little to no passion or pride and playing in non-desirable environments that are reminiscent of park footy players. These players have no desire to put in effort or stick around for quite frankly a horrible product of football. To further that the clubs in QLD cup disperse their players over 2-3 clubs which means they don’t benefit from cohesion and relationships between players.

This new reserve grade will foster better players, coaches, trainers, referees, systems and structures. More likely to keep, develop and enthuse the fringe nrl players with them playing with greater exposure in better environments (training facilities, stadiums, etc).

I’ll be honest currently the Q-cup is tough to watch with low to no crowds, poor streaming, low exposure, poor playing venues, huge discrepancies between player and team qualities. If I as a big fan of reserve grade am losing interest in watching it, how can we expect these budding players have any interest in waiting 2-3 years developing in a shithouse competition when they can go make a quick buck and get fake elsewhere but take much longer to properly develop.

Someone like @1910 is big on reserve grade and I am curious what he and many of you others think about implementing such a change, sooner rather than later.

 

[Jason Simmons]

I think we have a long term issue of looking at athletes instead of footballers.

I don’t think we are the only club that has that problem, but I think it is a major problem for us.

We have so much junior talent available, we likely look at all the usual stats and pick the highest scoring stat-wise and choose them, but are those dominant kids always the best NRL players?

Or are the kids that have to learn how to play against more dominant kids and who have to fight for everything they ever get, the ones who turn out to be the A grade stars?

I dunno, but the amount of absolute dunces we seem to select for our teams over recent years, tends to indicate to me we value physical ability far more than the ability to actually think and I am far from sure that is anywhere near the best approach.

And I’m sorry. Our current coaches suck. I have no idea what the answer is there, unfortunately it seems neither does our club…

 

[BroncsFan]

What is the Crux?
Our shitty coaching?
Poor systems?
Misfortunes?
Wrong Tactics?
Salary cap mismanagement?

I guess to an extent you could say them all. But there is one in particular yet to be mentioned that I think is so important for not only the sufficient development of our clubs players but levelling the differences of QLD clubs and NSW clubs. The Q-cup in my mind just isn’t working and I think we need a genuine reserve grade competition.

What will this look like?
17 teams (2023)
- Broncos
- Cowboys
- Titans
- Dolphins
- Warriors
- Mounties (/Bulldogs)
- Storm
- Knights
- Bears
- Blacktown Workers (/Manly)
- Newtown (/Sharks)
- Eels
- Dragons
- Panthers

Q/NSW cup remains as is with teams and NRL clubs use relationships with feeders to develop grass roots and academy prospects properly. Will just be of a lower quality.

In the NRL reserve grade comp most likely clubs like Newtown and North Sydney will want a piece of the action and fans will want to see that but NRL clubs would love the extra broadcasting money of this comp. So will likely be all 17 NRL teams same brands.

Why change?
I know quite a few of you couldn’t care less about the current reserve grade systems in place and I guess in a way that’s the issue. Currently, the Q-cup offers up an experience to fringe and devolving players that just isn’t desirable. Playing for clubs with little to no passion or pride and playing in non-desirable environments that are reminiscent of park footy players. These players have no desire to put in effort or stick around for quite frankly a horrible product of football. To further that the clubs in QLD cup disperse their players over 2-3 clubs which means they don’t benefit from cohesion and relationships between players.

This new reserve grade will foster better players, coaches, trainers, referees, systems and structures. More likely to keep, develop and enthuse the fringe nrl players with them playing with greater exposure in better environments (training facilities, stadiums, etc).

I’ll be honest currently the Q-cup is tough to watch with low to no crowds, poor streaming, low exposure, poor playing venues, huge discrepancies between player and team qualities. If I as a big fan of reserve grade am losing interest in watching it, how can we expect these budding players have any interest in waiting 2-3 years developing in a shithouse competition when they can go make a quick buck and get fake elsewhere but take much longer to properly develop.

Someone like @1910 is big on reserve grade and I am curious what he and many of you others think about implementing such a change, sooner rather than later.

I think having a reserve grade competition would be great, but I'm not sure it works out logistically.

NRL squads are currently 30 with development players tacked on... with 18 of that top 30 playing each week you will need to supplement the other 12 not playing. I'd say you'd need at least another 20 players for each squad or maybe even 25-30.

If you're going to have the reserve grade team play with the NRL team then you're basically doubling the game day expenses for every team. That would need to be paid by the NRL as they are putting the obligation on the club to do it... and I'm not sure they can cover that additional cost with media rights alone.

The issue with under 20's wasn't that people didn't want to watch it, but more around the current NRL schedule each week, with games largely being back to back, so they only ended up televising 1-2 games a week. For a reserve grade comp that's probably happening again otherwise you're asking Fox to setup the production for a Thursday reserve grade game at 5pm and Friday at like 2pm (so they can get their normal pre-game in as well). People are working through the week and barely attending Thursday night game as it is, so I don't think clubs are getting a whole lot of people to a Friday 2pm game to cover the costs of setting up food and bev, security, etc.

The new players to the comp would also likely not be full time footballers, unless the NRL bump up the salary cap quite a bit, so they can't really be heading over to NZ to play the warriors at 2pm Friday. I think the lowest cap price at the moment is about $75k for 7 players in the top 30 (or something like that).

Assuming an additional 20 players per squad, you'd think $75-100k is the top bracket for that squad and reducing down from there (otherwise they would be in the top 30)... so $50k-75k probably isn't enough to be a full time footballer and sitting at number 40 on the team sheet.

Outside of that there would also be doubling up on team's coaching and fitness staff, and huge impact and lessening of the quality in the ISC comps (that's where the extra 340 players will be coming from)... I just don't think clubs would be keen on it unless the NRL are putting in a lot of money to get it started and keep it going... and if the NRL are paying for it, then it's probably coming out of the club's grants each year (so it ends up costing the clubs anyway).

But in saying all that Vlando seems pretty keen to get something going, so it will probably get up at some point in the near future.

 

[Sproj]

I think having a reserve grade competition would be great, but I'm not sure it works out logistically.

NRL squads are currently 30 with development players tacked on... with 18 of that top 30 playing each week you will need to supplement the other 12 not playing. I'd say you'd need at least another 20 players for each squad.

If you're going to have the reserve grade team play with the NRL team then you're basically doubling the game day expenses for every team. That would need to be paid by the NRL as they are putting the obligation on the club to do it... and I'm not sure they can cover that additional cost with media rights alone.

The issue with under 20's wasn't that people didn't want to watch it, but more around the current NRL games largely being back to back each weekend, so they only ended up televising 1-2 games a week. For a reserve grade that's probably happening again otherwise your asking Fox to setup the production for a Thursday reserve grade game at 5pm and Friday at what 2pm (so they can get their normal pre-game in as well).

The new players to the comp would also likely not be full time footballers, unless the NRL bump up the salary cap quite a bit, so they can't really be heading over to NZ to play the warriors at 2pm Friday. I think the lowest cap price at the moment is about $75k for 7 players in the top 30 (or something like that).

Assuming an additional 20 players per squad, you'd think $75-100k is the top bracket for that squad and reducing down from there (otherwise they would be in the top 30)... so $50k-75k probably isn't enough to be a full time footballer and sitting at number 40 on the team sheet.

Outside of that there would also be doubling up on team's coaching and fitness staff, and huge impact and lessening of the quality in the ISC comps (that's where the extra 340 players will be coming from)... I just don't think clubs would be keen on it unless the NRL are putting in a lot of money to get it started and keep it going... and if the NRL are paying for it, then it's probably coming out of the club's grants each year (so it ends up costing the clubs anyway).

But in saying all that Vlando seems pretty keen to get something going, so it will probably get up at some point in the near future.

All good points but you know what they could try (and I am aware of all the issues with doing it and not being live perhaps), they could play all games in the same location and on the same weekend. Essentially, a reserve grade magic round every weekend or make it two or three locations, whatever. Record the games but do one or both of two things:

1. Play the recorded game before each club’s NRL game each week at the stadium. I don’t know the logistics of this. Perhaps record it the week before.

2. Play all reserve grade games on tv between Monday-Wednesday. They are all recorded games and not live but it does give league games then 7 days a week. Do not release the scores live, only after the game is played on tv.

The thought of watching the NRL Broncos on the weekend and reserve grade Broncos on say a Wednesday is appealing to me. I’m aware this is an out there idea and has LOTS of potential problems.

 

[Nashy]

Apparently Cyril was the only person the club ever paid who actually knew what to look for in a footballer.

These juniors comings through in the past decade have been mostly shit. Only talked up on BroncosHQ, yet here we are, we see them week in, week out. We see a coach get ripped in the papers, makes a single drop in Isaako, like once, but persists and persists.

It's pathetic to see, and sad to see so many bronxnation braindead fuckwits just blindly support the decisions of the club.

 

[HarryAllan7]

Having a reserve grade comp is an excellent idea.

Sure, there are some logistical challenges etc but it's something the NRL should absolutely have. I'm sure alot of fans would get on board with watching a Broncos-branded reserve grade side before the main game each week, where they could watch young players developing before they step up to first grade.
NRL is trying hard to garner interest in the NRLW in the same way, but its appeal is extremely limited to most fans.

It would also be the perfect platform for V'Landys and co. to test and research the impact / effectiveness of rule changes and new technology (eg: Forward pass tech) before it reaches the top pro level.

That's not even mentioning the benefit of engaging and involving the history and fans of clubs like Newtown and North Sydney, as well as providing pathways for clubs in other locations.... a PNG reserve grade team, a second NZ reserve grade team, Adelaide? Perth?

Combine this club-linked reserve grade comp with a Free Agent transfer window and a proper trade system and it would make a huge difference to the competition.

 

[Sproj]

Having a reserve grade comp is an excellent idea.

Sure, there are some logistical challenges etc but it's something the NRL should absolutely have. I'm sure alot of fans would get on board with watching a Broncos-branded reserve grade side before the main game each week, where they could watch young players developing before they step up to first grade.
NRL is trying hard to garner interest in the NRLW in the same way, but its appeal is extremely limited to most fans.

It would also be the perfect platform for V'Landys and co. to test and research the impact / effectiveness of rule changes and new technology (eg: Forward pass tech) before it reaches the top pro level.

That's not even mentioning the benefit of engaging and involving the history and fans of clubs like Newtown and North Sydney, as well as providing pathways for clubs in other locations.... a PNG reserve grade team, a second NZ reserve grade team, Adelaide? Perth?

Combine this club-linked reserve grade comp with a Free Agent transfer window and a proper trade system and it would make a huge difference to the competition.

You could take it a couple of steps further even and potentially have reserve grade teams all be like Newtown / Norths and have separate names. Something like Cairns is NQ's reserve grade side. Burleigh is GC specific. Redcliffe is Dolphins specific. Maybe something like Ipswich is Broncos' specific. It gets some potential lower grade rivalry happening and you could potentially fill it out with some other teams like the PNG Hunters. Turn it into a really important and fun thing.

The other thing, and this would be so hard to do, is bring in some kind of anti-tampering laws where the Roosters cannot steal other club's promising youngsters otherwise, clubs should not let these kids be exposed until they are signed up for multiple years. Maybe something like every youngster in the comp is on a NRL-centered 2+ year contract so other clubs are not allowed to steal anyone who stands out.

 

[1910]

All good points but you know what they could try (and I am aware of all the issues with doing it and not being live perhaps), they could play all games in the same location and on the same weekend. Essentially, a reserve grade magic round every weekend or make it two or three locations, whatever. Record the games but do one or both of two things:

1. Play the recorded game before each club’s NRL game each week at the stadium. I don’t know the logistics of this. Perhaps record it the week before.

2. Play all reserve grade games on tv between Monday-Wednesday. They are all recorded games and not live but it does give league games then 7 days a week. Do not release the scores live, only after the game is played on tv.

The thought of watching the NRL Broncos on the weekend and reserve grade Broncos on say a Wednesday is appealing to me. I’m aware this is an out there idea and has LOTS of potential problems.

The cost for some teams would be massive and nothing for other teams- if you did that in Sydney every week poor Broncos are going down there every weekend while Souths stroll across the road.

Is anyone going to watch a recorded game they already know the result of? It'd be a hard sell.

 

[1910]

I think having a reserve grade competition would be great, but I'm not sure it works out logistically.

NRL squads are currently 30 with development players tacked on... with 18 of that top 30 playing each week you will need to supplement the other 12 not playing. I'd say you'd need at least another 20 players for each squad or maybe even 25-30.

If you're going to have the reserve grade team play with the NRL team then you're basically doubling the game day expenses for every team. That would need to be paid by the NRL as they are putting the obligation on the club to do it... and I'm not sure they can cover that additional cost with media rights alone.

The issue with under 20's wasn't that people didn't want to watch it, but more around the current NRL schedule each week, with games largely being back to back, so they only ended up televising 1-2 games a week. For a reserve grade comp that's probably happening again otherwise you're asking Fox to setup the production for a Thursday reserve grade game at 5pm and Friday at like 2pm (so they can get their normal pre-game in as well). People are working through the week and barely attending Thursday night game as it is, so I don't think clubs are getting a whole lot of people to a Friday 2pm game to cover the costs of setting up food and bev, security, etc.

The new players to the comp would also likely not be full time footballers, unless the NRL bump up the salary cap quite a bit, so they can't really be heading over to NZ to play the warriors at 2pm Friday. I think the lowest cap price at the moment is about $75k for 7 players in the top 30 (or something like that).

Assuming an additional 20 players per squad, you'd think $75-100k is the top bracket for that squad and reducing down from there (otherwise they would be in the top 30)... so $50k-75k probably isn't enough to be a full time footballer and sitting at number 40 on the team sheet.

Outside of that there would also be doubling up on team's coaching and fitness staff, and huge impact and lessening of the quality in the ISC comps (that's where the extra 340 players will be coming from)... I just don't think clubs would be keen on it unless the NRL are putting in a lot of money to get it started and keep it going... and if the NRL are paying for it, then it's probably coming out of the club's grants each year (so it ends up costing the clubs anyway).

But in saying all that Vlando seems pretty keen to get something going, so it will probably get up at some point in the near future.

The clubs don't want to do it because of cost- it is that simple.

 

[Sproj]

The cost for some teams would be massive and nothing for other teams- if you did that in Sydney every week poor Broncos are going down there every weekend while Souths stroll across the road.

Is anyone going to watch a recorded game they already know the result of? It'd be a hard sell.

I am aware, that's why I said there would be lots of issues with it. It may be totally unworkable but then again, with a bit of time given to working through the issues, maybe there are ways to address them, no harm in having conversations about it.

 

[Mister Wright]

The NRL desperately needs a draft!

 

[johnny plath]

It really doesn't. It works for afl and nfl because they're the only league in their games so players can't just piss off if they aren't happy. Rugby league players have other options... super league French or Japanese rugby super rugby... talented players will be lost and other leagues just get stronger off the back of rugby league development systems.

 

[HarryAllan7]

You could take it a couple of steps further even and potentially have reserve grade teams all be like Newtown / Norths and have separate names. Something like Cairns is NQ's reserve grade side. Burleigh is GC specific. Redcliffe is Dolphins specific. Maybe something like Ipswich is Broncos' specific. It gets some potential lower grade rivalry happening and you could potentially fill it out with some other teams like the PNG Hunters. Turn it into a really important and fun thing.

The other thing, and this would be so hard to do, is bring in some kind of anti-tampering laws where the Roosters cannot steal other club's promising youngsters otherwise, clubs should not let these kids be exposed until they are signed up for multiple years. Maybe something like every youngster in the comp is on a NRL-centered 2+ year contract so other clubs are not allowed to steal anyone who stands out.

You either need to have some sort of reward for developing young talent - ensuring that wherever a prospect plays their junior footy, they automatically feed into the associated first grade team for the duration of a rookie contract (2-4 years). But this would kill teams like the Roosters who make no effort to foster their own young talent.

So the alternative....

Have a draft system whereby the team that developed the prospects has 'first rights' to acquire that player for a fair amount (exactly how the AFL do it)... An example: Hypothetically the Tigers get the wooden spoon this year, giving them first pick in the rookie draft. They are keen on young Blake Mozer, but he is linked to the Brisbane system. Given the Broncos have developed Mozer as a junior, they are able to (if they want to) usurp the Tigers to select Mozer by trading an appropriate value of draft picks / players to the Tigers, and the Tigers have no right of refusal. Therefore, the Broncos guarantee they get the junior they developed but ALSO the poorer teams up the top of the draft order still get fairly compensated to ensure parity across the competition.

 

[1910]

You either need to have some sort of reward for developing young talent - ensuring that wherever a prospect plays their junior footy, they automatically feed into the associated first grade team for the duration of a rookie contract (2-4 years). But this would kill teams like the Roosters who make no effort to foster their own young talent.

So the alternative....

Have a draft system whereby the team that developed the prospects has 'first rights' to acquire that player for a fair amount (exactly how the AFL do it)... An example: Hypothetically the Tigers get the wooden spoon this year, giving them first pick in the rookie draft. They are keen on young Blake Mozer, but he is linked to the Brisbane system. Given the Broncos have developed Mozer as a junior, they are able to (if they want to) usurp the Tigers to select Mozer by trading an appropriate value of draft picks / players to the Tigers, and the Tigers have no right of refusal. Therefore, the Broncos guarantee they get the junior they developed but ALSO the poorer teams up the top of the draft order still get fairly compensated to ensure parity across the competition.

Just in this post you have summarized the issue with discounts and drafts all these ideas. Mozer is from the Gold Coast, still lives there and drives to Brisbane. Went to School there and played for Tweed.

So you can't say Roosters take from other areas and that's not development but Broncos should get a discount for Mozer.

It's all grey in development because of situations like this.

Once clubs started to scout the world it has become too hard and too grey to decide what is a junior and what isn't. It's a mess.

 

[Sproj]

You either need to have some sort of reward for developing young talent - ensuring that wherever a prospect plays their junior footy, they automatically feed into the associated first grade team for the duration of a rookie contract (2-4 years). But this would kill teams like the Roosters who make no effort to foster their own young talent.

So the alternative....

Have a draft system whereby the team that developed the prospects has 'first rights' to acquire that player for a fair amount (exactly how the AFL do it)... An example: Hypothetically the Tigers get the wooden spoon this year, giving them first pick in the rookie draft. They are keen on young Blake Mozer, but he is linked to the Brisbane system. Given the Broncos have developed Mozer as a junior, they are able to (if they want to) usurp the Tigers to select Mozer by trading an appropriate value of draft picks / players to the Tigers, and the Tigers have no right of refusal. Therefore, the Broncos guarantee they get the junior they developed but ALSO the poorer teams up the top of the draft order still get fairly compensated to ensure parity across the competition.

The problem with that though, is let's say you have a bumper year in your academy (or whatever you call it) and have a Manu, Haas, Milford, Walsh and Grant coming through. Without thinking it through, despite developing all of these players at your club, you really can only get two, maybe three of them because they are ALL guns. So either way, you lose an incentive to develop.

The draft / trade system of the AFL works because they are drafting school kids and then those kids go into an automatic, non-negotiable 2 year contract with a club. If after that time (really, when they are starting to rise), the Roosters come in and still poach at an age these kids are primed to arrive and so the system in this manner, really still only benefits the Roosters.

A draft system in the NRL would have to be different and somehow stop this loophole being exploited and I just do not have the confidence in NRL administration to be able to do it.

 

[Sproj]

Just in this post you have summarized the issue with discounts and drafts all these ideas. Mozer is from the Gold Coast, still lives there and drives to Brisbane. Went to School there and played for Tweed.

So you can't say Roosters take from other areas and that's not development but Broncos should get a discount for Mozer.

It's all grey in development because of situations like this.

The whole development issue is a relatively easy fix though, you just have to formulate a definition for what it means and put in identifiable and provable steps to prove a player is developed by a club. This is an issue that I reckon could be defined in an afternoon of actual thought and discussion. Implementing it and making a policy around it might then take a further month.

 

[1910]

I am aware, that's why I said there would be lots of issues with it. It may be totally unworkable but then again, with a bit of time given to working through the issues, maybe there are ways to address them, no harm in having conversations about it.

I think the effort and cost would not equal what people think they're going to get. Not being negative but for the amount of time and effort if it was going to be such a great return they'd do it.

AFL doesn't have a reserve grade either.

 

[1910]

The whole development issue is a relatively easy fix though, you just have to formulate a definition for what it means and put in identifiable and provable steps to prove a player is developed by a club. This is an issue that I reckon could be defined in an afternoon of actual thought and discussion. Implementing it and making a policy around it might then take a further month.

Just look on here, it means 20 different things. If you asked people most just say debut- he's a Raiders junior.

What about the Capewell's of the world; he's surely not a Sharks junior at 23. Is he a Broncos or Roosters junior because of 28 NYC games?