FOOTBALL 2022 FIFA World Cup

[The True King]

When there are other players who qualify for GOAT status that have dragged their side to WC victories, it does matter that Messi is yet to win one.

Maradona never won a Copa America with Argentina. Pele never played in Europe. You can pick holes in pretty much anyone's resume if you try.

Messi getting to the final with this Argentina side should be the end of the debate. The 2014 side was littered with stars but he's basically single-handedly dragged this side (which is average in truth) the whole way. Even more remarkable when you consider his age.

 

[Sproj]

Messi has long been the greatest of this generation, Mbappe is taking / has taken his throne. So excited to see them both up against each other.

 

[BroncsFan]

Messi has long been the greatest of this generation, Mbappe is taking / has taken his throne. So excited to see them both up against each other.

Mbappe will never be in a goat conversation whilst he stays in the French League.

He can basically stay in 2nd gear for 90% of the year and turn up for Champions League games... which PSG havent won yet

 

[Renegade]

Mbappe's a funny one, he could be a 2x WC winner by 24 with feasibly at least two more good chances to add to that, whilst starring in both thus far. I don't think skillwise he has shown he belongs in the absolute top tier convo but if he keeps racking up accolades then by default he will be in the convo.

 

[BroncosFever]

A bit of logic here, finally. I have never got the whole World Cup winner or you don't count argument. You can have an amazing career and dominate club football week in and week out for years on end, but if you don't play lights out for a specific four week period regardless of whether you have good players around you or not, then you aren't worthy, apparently.

Playing lights out against the best, is the key. There's no better exhibition of Football than the World Cup. Even the lesser teams can beat you if you're not prepared, Saudi Arabia case and point.

Scoring bags of goals against the likes of Cadiz, doesn't really cut it for mine.

 

[BroncosFever]

As for France vs Argentina, France just have a better all round team where as with Argentina, it's really only going to be Messi who can get them over the line within the initial 90 minutes.

So for all the Messi fans, this is his big moment, the world will be watching what he is able to do in a World Cup final against probably the best team in the world. There's no official "greatest of all time" accolade but certainly if he can get his team past France, he will have every right to that title. If not, oh well, he had a good run.

 

[Super Freak]

Maradona never won a Copa America with Argentina. Pele never played in Europe. You can pick holes in pretty much anyone's resume if you try.

Messi getting to the final with this Argentina side should be the end of the debate. The 2014 side was littered with stars but he's basically single-handedly dragged this side (which is average in truth) the whole way. Even more remarkable when you consider his age.

He has one more game to go.

It's easy to dominate in a ridiculously stacked Barcelona side in a comp that for the better part of the past couple of decades has been a two horse race.

It's not so easy coming into a different side and doing it for a 4 week period in a comp where there's far more competition.

One of the things that separates the GOATs from the great players is their influence. Their influence over a game, over a team, their ability to inspire and lift their team making the players around them better, their ability to drag that team to victory.

He had his opportunity against Germany, he couldn't do it. He's now got another against France, his last chance.

 

[BroncosFever]

He has one more game to go.

It's easy to dominate in a ridiculously stacked Barcelona side in a comp that for the better part of the past couple of decades has been a two horse race.

It's not so easy coming into a different side and doing it for a 4 week period in a comp where there's far more competition.

One of the things that separates the GOATs from the great players is their influence. Their influence over a game, over a team, their ability to inspire and lift their team making the players around them better, their ability to drag that team to victory.

He had his opportunity against Germany, he couldn't do it. He's now got another against France, his last chance.

Actually his last few years at Barcelona weren't that great either.

 

[ZTop]

He has one more game to go.

It's easy to dominate in a ridiculously stacked Barcelona side in a comp that for the better part of the past couple of decades has been a two horse race.

It's not so easy coming into a different side and doing it for a 4 week period in a comp where there's far more competition.

One of the things that separates the GOATs from the great players is their influence. Their influence over a game, over a team, their ability to inspire and lift their team making the players around them better, their ability to drag that team to victory.

He had his opportunity against Germany, he couldn't do it. He's now got another against France, his last chance.

It's probably even easier in a PSG that have literally no competition

 

[pennywisealfie]

It's easy to dominate in a ridiculously stacked Barcelona side in a comp that for the better part of the past couple of decades has been a two horse race.

Give me a break. Spoken like a person that only watches EPL. Atletico, Valencia, Sevilla and Villarreal have all been title contenders or won the league in that time.

People go on about how stacked English football is but then these hopeless teams in La Liga like Sevilla and Villarreal consistently beat their "big teams" in Europe.

Meanwhile Man City and Liverpool were ahead of everyone else by 18 points or more. Yet La Liga is the two horse race league?

 

[The True King]

Give me a break. Spoken like a person that only watches EPL. Atletico, Valencia, Sevilla and Villarreal have all been title contenders or won the league in that time.

People go on about how stacked English football is but then these hopeless teams in La Liga like Sevilla and Villarreal consistently beat their "big teams" in Europe.

Meanwhile Man City and Liverpool were ahead of everyone else by 18 points or more. Yet La Liga is the two horse race league?

I was about to go to town with a response but you've nailed most my points.

Post above mentions banging in goals against Cadiz and La Liga being a 'two horse race'. For the best part of Messi's career at Barca, La Liga was the best league in the world. Those sides you mentioned were consistently in the latter stages of Europe. It's only really been overtaken by the EPL in the last 2-3 years, that's evident by the UEFA coefficient.

Nothing Messi has done at PSG is relevant to the debate. He was amongst the greats before he left Barca. I do think trophy collecting in the Ligue 1 means nothing. The Balon D'or and Copa America do though. If he can win a UCL there it'll be massive for him and put to bed the whole one club player thing.

Playing lights out against the best, is the key. There's no better exhibition of Football than the World Cup. Even the lesser teams can beat you if you're not prepared, Saudi Arabia case and point.

Scoring bags of goals against the likes of Cadiz, doesn't really cut it for mine.

This is such a silly point after arguing Pele and Maradona are greater. If you want to poke holes in Messi's club career you have to appreciate that those two played the majority of their careers in Argentina/Brazil. You can hardly argue the quality of those opponents Pele was banging them in for Santos was any better than Cadiz.

 

[The True King]

Actually his last few years at Barcelona weren't that great either.

By his own standards maybe.

All of those seasons he had over 40 goals + assists. Even at Barca's worst he was carrying them.

 

[BroncosFever]

By his own standards maybe.

All of those seasons he had over 40 goals + assists. Even at Barca's worst he was carrying them.

That’s where the argument comes into it about the quality of the opposition. I have seen some of those La Liga teams. Don’t worry, Lewandowski has the exact same queries about him as well.

 

[Wolfie]

Give me a break. Spoken like a person that only watches EPL. Atletico, Valencia, Sevilla and Villarreal have all been title contenders or won the league in that time.

People go on about how stacked English football is but then these hopeless teams in La Liga like Sevilla and Villarreal consistently beat their "big teams" in Europe.

Meanwhile Man City and Liverpool were ahead of everyone else by 18 points or more. Yet La Liga is the two horse race league?

I dont think La Liga is anywhere near as competitive as the Premier league. Its not the 2 horse race it has been between Real and Barca previously, In the last decade Atletico have really come into the equation but the bottom half of La Liga isnt as strong as the bottom half of the premier league imo. I think the top 6-8 of La Liga and the Premier league are probably similar in standards.

This is such a silly point after arguing Pele and Maradona are greater. If you want to poke holes in Messi's club career you have to appreciate that those two played the majority of their careers in Argentina/Brazil. You can hardly argue the quality of those opponents Pele was banging them in for Santos was any better than Cadiz.

Pele you have a point about, but not Maradona, he played most of his career outside Argentina. He played in top flight Spain with Barcelona and Sevilla, he played in Serie A with Napoli, who were a very ordinary side until he got there, and he turned them not only into title challengers but winners. He also won a world cup with a pretty average Argentina team and like at Napoli, he was the driving force behind it.

Hard to be over critical of Pele though really as when he was coming through players didnt tend to move abroad like they do now. In terms of World cup players, imo he is the GOAT. Won and dominated in 3 world cups, and probably would have in a 4th in 1966 if he didnt get brutally kicked from pillar to post. I dont think anyone has come close to him in that respect.

Messi, as much as it pains me to say it just isnt as good as Maradona. Maradona has proved he can turn an ordinary team into a great one, Messi, like Ronaldo, has just made a great side better. I think this Argentina side is a lot better than you are giving them credit for as well. They have a lot of talent all over and are a very strong side. I dont think they have performed well, Messi hasnt even had a great tournament but you would expect them to be capable of challenging with the talent they have.

 

[Foordy]

I have watched very little of this world cup, so i'm wondering if the officiating has really been NRL level bad or it's just a case of losers whinging and blaming the ref.

because you can add Morocco to the list of countries complaining about the officiating. they have reportedly lodged a formal complaint with Fifa

 

[pennywisealfie]

I dont think La Liga is anywhere near as competitive as the Premier league. Its not the 2 horse race it has been between Real and Barca previously, In the last decade Atletico have really come into the equation but the bottom half of La Liga isnt as strong as the bottom half of the premier league imo. I think the top 6-8 of La Liga and the Premier league are probably similar in standards.



Pele you have a point about, but not Maradona, he played most of his career outside Argentina. He played in top flight Spain with Barcelona and Sevilla, he played in Serie A with Napoli, who were a very ordinary side until he got there, and he turned them not only into title challengers but winners. He also won a world cup with a pretty average Argentina team and like at Napoli, he was the driving force behind it.

Hard to be over critical of Pele though really as when he was coming through players didnt tend to move abroad like they do now. In terms of World cup players, imo he is the GOAT. Won and dominated in 3 world cups, and probably would have in a 4th in 1966 if he didnt get brutally kicked from pillar to post. I dont think anyone has come close to him in that respect.

Messi, as much as it pains me to say it just isnt as good as Maradona. Maradona has proved he can turn an ordinary team into a great one, Messi, like Ronaldo, has just made a great side better. I think this Argentina side is a lot better than you are giving them credit for as well. They have a lot of talent all over and are a very strong side. I dont think they have performed well, Messi hasnt even had a great tournament but you would expect them to be capable of challenging with the talent they have.

You've claimed Messi can't be the GOAT because he has great players around him all the time yet all glory to Pele for winning "three" World Cups. Forgetting, of course that Pele only played in the first two matches of 1962 and then Brazil went on to win without him anyway.

For the other argument about the better league. EPL has been the better league since about 2019. But before that, La Liga had it over EPL easily, even these terrible teams down the bottom end of the table.

 

[Wolfie]

You've claimed Messi can't be the GOAT because he has great players around him all the time yet all glory to Pele for winning "three" World Cups. Forgetting, of course that Pele only played in the first two matches of 1962 and then Brazil went on to win without him anyway.

For the other argument about the better league. EPL has been the better league since about 2019. But before that, La Liga had it over EPL easily, even these terrible teams down the bottom end of the table.

I said Pele is the GOAT as a world cup player, not overall and i still think he is. As good as i do think Pele was, i dont think he tested himself against the best players in the World on a weekly basis like a lot of the other contenders. Thats always going to go against him in the debate.

You are twisiting what i have said. I didnt claim Messi cant be the goat because he has great players around him, i just dont see Messi as the type of player to carry a team on his back like Maradona did at Napoli for example, or Argentina. To put it into perspective, it would be like Messi joining somebody like Elche, Celta Vigo or Vallecano at the start of this season ( all mid table sides in 2021/22 ) and turning them into a top 2 side in Spain. Maradona did it with a worse Argentina side as well. Messi hasnt really ever performed in a world cup to the level Maradona did. My take is still though i can think of plenty of footballers in different positions who are just as good as Maradona, Messi, Pele or Ronaldo, they just get overlooked for being the GOAT because they arent attackers. Nobody will ever convince me that Maldini for example as a defender isnt as good as Messi or Ronaldo are as attackers.

Still dont agree about La Liga and again, i think you are twisting what i'm saying. I never said anything about the Premier League being better or worse, i said its more competitive overall, and i think it is. As i said, i think the top 6-8 sides in both La Liga and the Premier League are pretty closely matched and even allowing for how well Spain has done in European competitions i still think thats the case, i dont think there is much in it. Anything can happen in European competitions compared to a 38 game season.

 

[Super Freak]

Nice work from Dari.

10 minutes in and it's 1-1.