Has Cameron Smith had more influence on the game than Darren Lockyer?

[Black Philip]

Influence is a broad term in this case. Locky influenced the game in a more positive way by virtue of who he is as a person, and to be one of the best of all time in two positions is basically unparalleled. Smith is considered to be the best hooker the game has seen and this is probably true. So much of the argument would be the influence a fullback and also a half has against the influence of a hooker, and with these two as well the influence a captain has. As far as results go, it's Locky. He set the standard and Cam has met it, but not necessarily surpassed it or improved it. He will break a few of Locky's records though.

But I think there is a real story there about the influence they had on each other and each other's careers. In the same way that Locky was mentored in rep teams by the likes of Alf, Joey, Freddy etc - JT, Smith, Slater etc mentored under Locky. They influenced each other with shared success (even though Smith/Storm potentially robbed Locky of more glory towards the end of his career, fucking 08).

Cameron learned everything he knows from Locky, shit Bellamy probably did too.

Totally non-biased response here.

Good point about Lockyer's influence on other players. I can remember hearing JT speak about playing with Lockyer at the start of his Origin career and being amazed at his resilience physically and mentally. I honestly believe Lockyer had a massive part in Thurston becoming the player that he is today and the same would go for Cameron Smith.

Smith is, as far as I'm concerned, the greatest hooker the game has ever seen. And I'm not sure we'll see another like him, and we probably won't see another like Lockyer. The same goes for JT, Johns, Fittler etc etc. They're all incredible in their own right and I'm not sure they can be split in terms of influence on the game as they all do it in different ways. As long as they keep influencing the next generation and helping to produce the next crop of superstars, that's all I'm concerned about. Otherwise I think it's a bit of a pointless pissing contest.

 

[I bleed Maroon]

Begrudgingly, you have to say yes, but emphasis on begrudgingly. I like Cameron and I respect him and everything he's achieved, but even as someone who Bleeds Maroon, it would be remiss of me to ignore all of his shortcomings as well and there are plenty.

Cam has repeatedly shown both on field and off that he isn't just a first class player, he's also a quality Politician. And Politicians are first and foremost self serving. Even Bennett for all of the influence he commands has never tried to exert as much control over the game as Cameron has, and I have no doubt he has picked that up from his coach and the culture of his club. Whether it be strong arming the NRL and the clubs via the RLPA for a bigger payday, case in point this farcical trial match he and JT are looking to cash in on, or his lawyer like lecturing of the referees on field to get his own way, or captaining a side that won a premiership 2 years after being snagged in the biggest cheating scandal in Australian sport and never batting an eyelash since. He has never, ever minded serving himself and his club first and everyone else second, and that would be okay if not expected, were it not for the fact the competition as a whole has suffered greatly for it.

He's a future immortal and probably a future class coach/administrator, there's no denying that, but it isn't right to forget all the people he has stepped on to get there either. That sort of attitude has never been in Locky's character and I love and respect him a lot more for that.

 

[Broncs_Fan]

Begrudgingly, you have to say yes, but emphasis on begrudgingly. I like Cameron and I respect him and everything he's achieved, but even as someone who Bleeds Maroon, it would be remiss of me to ignore all of his shortcomings as well and there are plenty.

Cam has repeatedly shown both on field and off that he isn't just a first class player, he's also a quality Politician. And Politicians are first and foremost self serving. Even Bennett for all of the influence he commands has never tried to exert as much control over the game as Cameron has, and I have no doubt he has picked that up from his coach and the culture of his club. Whether it be strong arming the NRL and the clubs via the RLPA for a bigger payday, case in point this farcical trial match he and JT are looking to cash in on, or his lawyer like lecturing of the referees on field to get his own way, or captaining a side that won a premiership 2 years after being snagged in the biggest cheating scandal in Australian sport and never batting an eyelash since. He has never, ever minded serving himself and his club first and everyone else second, and that would be okay if not expected, were it not for the fact the competition as a whole has suffered greatly for it.

He's a future immortal and probably a future class coach/administrator, there's no denying that, but it isn't right to forget all the people he has stepped on to get there either. That sort of attitude has never been in Locky's character and I love and respect him a lot more for that.

You've summed it up very well here. He's a very self serving person. Fair enough he is looking after his own interests but he's not a 'statesman of the game' like he sometimes called.

 

[JayPee]

Begrudgingly, you have to say yes, but emphasis on begrudgingly. I like Cameron and I respect him and everything he's achieved, but even as someone who Bleeds Maroon, it would be remiss of me to ignore all of his shortcomings as well and there are plenty.

Cam has repeatedly shown both on field and off that he isn't just a first class player, he's also a quality Politician. And Politicians are first and foremost self serving. Even Bennett for all of the influence he commands has never tried to exert as much control over the game as Cameron has, and I have no doubt he has picked that up from his coach and the culture of his club. Whether it be strong arming the NRL and the clubs via the RLPA for a bigger payday, case in point this farcical trial match he and JT are looking to cash in on, or his lawyer like lecturing of the referees on field to get his own way, or captaining a side that won a premiership 2 years after being snagged in the biggest cheating scandal in Australian sport and never batting an eyelash since. He has never, ever minded serving himself and his club first and everyone else second, and that would be okay if not expected, were it not for the fact the competition as a whole has suffered greatly for it.

He's a future immortal and probably a future class coach/administrator, there's no denying that, but it isn't right to forget all the people he has stepped on to get there either. That sort of attitude has never been in Locky's character and I love and respect him a lot more for that.

Yes looking to up the minimum wage of a bottom tier pro rugby league player so he doesn't have to pick up garbage bins in his spare time to pay for his mortgage along with trying to fund more money into the grassroots so the games next generation can continue to come through aswell as trying to find out where the huge "warchest" has gone and why the NRL continues to need to borrow money from a bank. You are correct big bad Cameron is being such a strong armer. Spare me

 

[Foordy]

Yes looking to up the minimum wage of a bottom tier pro rugby league player so he doesn't have to pick up garbage bins in his spare time to pay for his mortgage along with trying to fund more money into the grassroots so the games next generation can continue to come through aswell as trying to find out where the huge "warchest" has gone and why the NRL continues to need to borrow money from a bank. You are correct big bad Cameron is being such a strong armer. Spare me

the current minimum wage for rugby league players is significantly higher than what i earn ... and i have a mortgage without having to pick up garbage bins in my spare time

 

[I bleed Maroon]

Yes looking to up the minimum wage of a bottom tier pro rugby league player so he doesn't have to pick up garbage bins in his spare time to pay for his mortgage along with trying to fund more money into the grassroots so the games next generation can continue to come through aswell as trying to find out where the huge "warchest" has gone and why the NRL continues to need to borrow money from a bank. You are correct big bad Cameron is being such a strong armer. Spare me

Very narrow minded way of looking at it. Perhaps young players looking to get their start in the top grade are best served working their asses off in the gutter like everyone else while fighting for their place. It helps to keep their feet firmly on the ground, instead of getting **** turds like Hayne and Gallen who adore the smell of their own farts and let everyone around them know about it.

 

[JayPee]

the current minimum wage for rugby league players is significantly higher than what i earn ... and i have a mortgage without having to pick up garbage bins in my spare time

I apologise. I meant the second tier guys that are plying the trade mostly in the level below that still put the work in in regards to training etc but aren't remunerated as high as the fulltime nrl bloke. The narrative is still the same this notion that Smith is only looking out for his buddies up top is complete crap.

 

[JayPee]

Very narrow minded way of looking at it. Perhaps young players looking to get their start in the top grade are best served working their asses off in the gutter like everyone else while fighting for their place. It helps to keep their feet firmly on the ground, instead of getting **** turds like Hayne and Gallen who adore the smell of their own farts and let everyone around them know about it.

It is not narrow minded at all. Narrow minded is saying that a bloke that is at the top of the games only purpose is to line his own pockets when he has been spruiking what he and blokes like Vunakece who is on the RLPA are trying to get. Somebody has got to be a spokesman for the players and fair or not people listen to what bigger names have to say over blokes on the way up.

 

[Big Pete]

The one criticism against Smith that I've never understood is his relationship with referees.

The media (particularly from NSW) have a field day and act like Smith is a master manipulator since he talks to referees like they're human beings and challenges the rationale of their decisions. What do they want him to do? To yell at the referees like Graham, Gallen and Thurston? Everybody should be following Smith's example.

This seemed to crop up after Game 3 2013 when the streaker ran onto the field. The call was always going to go the Maroons way and Smith just happened to weigh in.

I can sort of understand the issues fans have with the Storm's Brazillian Jiu Jitsu in the ruck, but the criticisms against Smith have always smelled of sour grapes.

 

[WASSHHH]

I know a guy who lived with him years ago, he's apparently the nicest, most genuine man you will meet.

I'm interested to know if you have any examples to see what you have seen to form that opinion. If not, no big deal, but I've just never personally felt he is nothing but a decent person.

It's not like he's sacrificing the team to make these records.

I don't know him personally, so I can't argue with what the guy you know said.
I also don't doubt he is a nice person, not one bit.
However, one example that comes to mind is never sitting out a game - even when asked to by his coach. The coach, who ultimately has his head on the chopping block, obviously thinks it's best for the team. That may be to rest the player, expose a young player to NRL when the game isn't an overly important one etc. But I can't think of a time when Smith hasn't overruled Bellamy.
Now I am not naive enough to think that's not the approach of pretty much every player, but toward the end of his career, I remember Lockyer sitting out a game (or games, my memory is not that amazing to recall every game of every year) when asked to do so (by Griffin I think), because it was better for the team.
Same thing when Sheens was the coach of the Australian team - Smith flat out refused to sit out a game and let Farah start (who could blame him, right...). Obviously Sheens thought it was best for the team to expose Farah to the environment, in the event he is needed or to test out combinations (or because he loved Farah, most likely). But if my memory serves me correctly, I do recall Lockyer sitting out so that Carney could play 6.
It just doesn't sit well with me when players overrule their coaches requests for games that aren't important - that's not being a team player and lends me to think he is chasing records for games played. If it was a sudden death game (NRL, Origin, Test) then I understand. But just another game, it's not the same.
And to reinforce my thoughts, Lockyer sat out the 2011 preliminary final because he didn't want to risk being a liability to the team, which essentially ended up retiring him from the NRL. That's a team man.
I honestly don't see Smith doing the same.
With that said, that's just my opinion, one of just an average fan who has no claim to being a league fountain-of-knowledge.

 

[tommy]

The one criticism against Smith that I've never understood is his relationship with referees.

The media (particularly from NSW) have a field day and act like Smith is a master manipulator since he talks to referees like they're human beings and challenges the rationale of their decisions. What do they want him to do? To yell at the referees like Graham, Gallen and Thurston? Everybody should be following Smith's example.

One thing he does get away with though is gaining an audience with the ref when he is not supposed to, usually when his team needs a breather. Other captains get told to go away, I think it was Jake Friend and Trent Robinson complaining about this earlier in the year.

 

[Big Pete]

One thing he does get away with though is gaining an audience with the ref when he is not supposed to, usually when his team needs a breather. Other captains get told to go away, I think it was Jake Friend and Trent Robinson complaining about this earlier in the year.

He can be chatty and I remember the instance you're referring to. However on that occasion I didn't have an issue since it was such a technical and controversial call.

The only time where I felt Smith was in the wrong was the Alex McKinnon situation...and boy didn't the media let him have it.

 

[Lockysillegitimatechild]

I admire smith more then any other current player, broncos included. The media goes on about the broncos missing out on Inglis but for me, smith is the one who would have brought us a guaranteed premiership and he was close to signing with us on a couple of occaissions I believe. He coaches the storm from the field better then anyone who has ever played the game and has reinvented the hooking role to new standards. On the other hand, smith learnt a lot of his game management from Lockyer, he has said this in multiple interviews, and Lockyer is the ultimate clutch player.

My admitted bias leans me to Lockyer, simply because smith learnt off Lockyer, not the other way around. And Lockyer was a great in 2 positions (although smith could easily be a great half judging from the little I've seen him play there)

 

[Porthoz]

I'm not sure I can be unbiased in this, and I'm by no means a Cam Smith hater, since I think he, Thurston and Lockyer are the top three Queenslanders ever (yes, all are ahead of "the king" in my opinion).

Each of the above players will go down as the greatest in his own right, for now... Cam, as the greatest hooker, Jonno as the greatest halfback (although NSW'kers may disagree), and Locky as the greatest 5/8 and Fullback.

In terms of the Kangaroos, there can be no discussion really. Lockyer is so far ahead of anyone else, it's not even a competition.

Smith has longevity in the Qld arena as a winner, but he did it alongside Slater, Cronk, and more importantly, Thurston and Lockyer, whom was instrumental in making Qld the winning team it became and stayed after his retirement. Of course, Cameron deserves credit for maintaining Qld's dominance, but he has to share that credit with his NQ mate.

At club level, none of them can be underestimated, although Smith has again had his mates Cronk and Slater helping out a fair bit, not to speak of Inglis earlier on. Thurston had to do it almost on his own in NQ, and that is no small task, but he couldn't make the Cowboys a winning force until very late in his career, helped by one of the most dominant forward packs ever assembled.

Lockyer however, took it to another level in both positions he played, and no matter the cattle around him, the Lockyer Broncos were always a team to heed.
Most NRL (ex) players will drop his name when asked the player they feared and respected most in the opposition's team, because he lead by example without extravagant gestures or complaints, not to mention the fact he could (and many times did) beat you on his own at any time in a game.

That is in my opinion, the best measure of a player's influence in the game, and it is why even Gus called him the God of Rugby League.

 

[subsbligh]

Smith by a mile. In positive and negative ways.

Lockyer is my favourite player of all time. BUT Lockyer came to a club with a burgeoning roster of the best players in the game, in rugby league heartland.

Smith has literally built a successful rugby league franchise and pioneered an entirely new rugby league market on his back, in Melbourne, and maintained success for a generation.

In a period of 15 years, the Storm have literally changed the game with their tactics. They have been the benchmark for a generation of players.

For Storm fans, the fear would have to be that they become the Brisbane Lions of the NRL. Once the players go and with it success, there's no organic fan base.

 

[Cult]

But Smith is a major reason said situation isn't reversed. The bottom line is, on a football field, you would take either and both would be reason to celebrate premierships already.

*premiership

 

[Big Pete]

Smith has literally built a successful rugby league franchise and pioneered

No he didn't, in fact Melbourne were one of the best teams in the competition from day dot because of former Broncos management.

 

[Super Freak]

Smith wasn't exactly surrounded by nobodies either. Melbourne had arguably the best spine in the competition along with some Origin and International forwards.