Hypothetical: player involvement
- Thread starter Coxy
- Start date
- Mar 5, 2008
- 9,600
- 1,305
Nashy said:
Petero does his in crayon
- Mar 5, 2008
- 54,673
- 34,991
Anonymous person said:
I can only assume you thought I was going against you. But no, I wasn't.
I said in another thread, the names being thrown around, they earn massive money, they have many houses, business' etc. No way they know the money that's coming in and out.
Anonymous person
Banned User
- Dec 16, 2008
- 4,635
- 932
yeah i thought you were loling at what i said, not ari. i apologise for that.
there is absolutely no way players of this level are sitting down come tax time with their shoebox of receipts and doing their own tax return. i bet half the players couldnt even tell you what their yearly income was, let alone figure out how much tax they have to pay. i dont earn 300k and i have a hard enough time working it out lol.
there is absolutely no way players of this level are sitting down come tax time with their shoebox of receipts and doing their own tax return. i bet half the players couldnt even tell you what their yearly income was, let alone figure out how much tax they have to pay. i dont earn 300k and i have a hard enough time working it out lol.
- Mar 13, 2008
- 6,522
- 2,807
Yes, of course they would have accountants do their taxes. But they are still lying by proxy if they decide not to disclose to them the additional payments (providing they knew they were getting them).
I would have thought it'd be easy enough to see how it's the same basic thing, but obviously not.
I would have thought it'd be easy enough to see how it's the same basic thing, but obviously not.
Anonymous person
Banned User
- Dec 16, 2008
- 4,635
- 932
do you really think that NRL players do their own tax returns? lol[/quote:3i6pmowc]The Rock said:
Regardless, they are still 100% responsbile for what they claim from their tax returns.[/quote:3i6pmowc]
are they though?
if i pay an accountant to do my tax return and he fudges it without my knowledge, surely he is responsible?
ari, i would say its the players managers job to provide their accountant with all the details needed to do the tax, since they are the one getting their client contracts. i doubt the player even has a single thing to do with their tax return.
- Mar 13, 2008
- 6,522
- 2,807
do you really think that NRL players do their own tax returns? lol[/quote:39rp3yi1]Anonymous person said:
Regardless, they are still 100% responsbile for what they claim from their tax returns.[/quote:39rp3yi1]
are they though?
if i pay an accountant to do my tax return and he fudges it without my knowledge, surely he is responsible?
ari, i would say its the players managers job to provide their accountant with all the details needed to do the tax, since they are the one getting their client contracts. i doubt the player even has a single thing to do with their tax return.[/quote:39rp3yi1]
It all depends. If you go to your accountant, and he fudges something without you knowing, then it's not your fault, nor would it be the players' fault.
But if your employer pays you an extra $50,000 that isn't taxed, and you know of it, and deliberately decide NOT to tell your accountant, then I'm fairly certain you're committing tax fraud.
- Thread starter
- #45
do you really think that NRL players do their own tax returns? lol[/quote:2al6ws5w]Ari Gold said:
Regardless, they are still 100% responsbile for what they claim from their tax returns.[/quote:2al6ws5w]
are they though?
if i pay an accountant to do my tax return and he fudges it without my knowledge, surely he is responsible?
ari, i would say its the players managers job to provide their accountant with all the details needed to do the tax, since they are the one getting their client contracts. i doubt the player even has a single thing to do with their tax return.[/quote:2al6ws5w]
It all depends. If you go to your accountant, and he fudges something without you knowing, then it's not your fault, nor would it be the players' fault.
[/quote:2al6ws5w]
Incorrect. It is the taxpayer's responsibility to understand their tax return before signing. If you sign it, and there's bad info, the ATO chases YOU, not your accountant.
If criminal proceedings were started by the ATO then you may have a case if you can prove that your accountant behaved fraudulently without you knowing, perhaps changing the return AFTER you signed it. But otherwise no, it's all your responsibility.
Hence why it surprises me how many people don't review their tax agent's work before signing.
Professor47
NRL Player
- Mar 5, 2008
- 1,632
- 81
Coxy - your hypothetical situation
(which is basically 5 dodgy administrators sat down with GI, Slater and co. told them this is what we're going to do and we're going to win a few premierships and they all were in on it)
If this is the case I would lose pretty much all respect for the QLDers involved... it is just not a matter of state pride... and I would say they have to be de-registered and banned for a certain TIME but not forever... do your time and you're good to go IMO.
FTR - I reckon the players had SLIGHT and innocent inklings but not to the extent of a DELIBERATE system of cheating --> and if thats the case I support the players... but as mrslong (I think) said - in professional sport you have to cop what the club copped...
(which is basically 5 dodgy administrators sat down with GI, Slater and co. told them this is what we're going to do and we're going to win a few premierships and they all were in on it)
If this is the case I would lose pretty much all respect for the QLDers involved... it is just not a matter of state pride... and I would say they have to be de-registered and banned for a certain TIME but not forever... do your time and you're good to go IMO.
FTR - I reckon the players had SLIGHT and innocent inklings but not to the extent of a DELIBERATE system of cheating --> and if thats the case I support the players... but as mrslong (I think) said - in professional sport you have to cop what the club copped...
FWIW I don't think that the players KNEW of the systematic cheating, but probably had an inkling/suspicion something was probably dodgy. I heard a former trainer at the Storm say on the radio yesterday he would sometimes stand on the training field, look around and wonder how they could keep all the worth of talent together under the cap (then just shrug it off and get on with things). Players aren't that stupid, many of them must have done the same thing - they would know what they personally would be getting paid and based on that be able to make some fair assumptions on the type of money their team-mates would be getting paid - and would have on occassion looked around the training paddock and wonder how they could keep everyone together under the cap, but then would have shrugged it off, not asked any questions and just got on with training/playing. Ergo - if you don't ask, you don't know.
On the signing of the second contracts - sure they would have signed them and believed Waldron when he said they would be sent off to the NRL no problems. The players don't get a copy of the contract back with an NRL "Registered" stamp on it or anything, so they would have no idea if the club didn't lodge it.
With regards to knowing what payments they were getting - well I agree with AP that most people don't keep a really close eye on their accounts. I don't keep a mega-close eye on them, but I know the weekly amount of my pay and even just a cursory glance once in a while would tell me if it was unexpectedly more - same thing goes for if another amount money gets paid into my account that I wasn't expecting. This goes back to them believing the second contact detailing the full amount of their payments and where they were coming from was above board - they would have expected all of those amounts, but not necessarily have known the NRL didn't expect them to get those payments.
On the tax issue - Coxy is correct, it doesn't matter who actually prepared the tax return the individual is 100% responsible for it so if it's dodgy the Tax Office will prosecute the individual (the individual may also take action against the accountant or whoever).
Finally, usually the more people who are in on a dodgy scheme the greater the chances it will come out sooner rather than later. And agree that players who have been forced to leave the club, if they knew about it, they would have blown the whistle - cause they would have been thinking "well you're cheating the cap to keep everyone else, why not me? Screw you Melbourne Storm."
On the signing of the second contracts - sure they would have signed them and believed Waldron when he said they would be sent off to the NRL no problems. The players don't get a copy of the contract back with an NRL "Registered" stamp on it or anything, so they would have no idea if the club didn't lodge it.
With regards to knowing what payments they were getting - well I agree with AP that most people don't keep a really close eye on their accounts. I don't keep a mega-close eye on them, but I know the weekly amount of my pay and even just a cursory glance once in a while would tell me if it was unexpectedly more - same thing goes for if another amount money gets paid into my account that I wasn't expecting. This goes back to them believing the second contact detailing the full amount of their payments and where they were coming from was above board - they would have expected all of those amounts, but not necessarily have known the NRL didn't expect them to get those payments.
On the tax issue - Coxy is correct, it doesn't matter who actually prepared the tax return the individual is 100% responsible for it so if it's dodgy the Tax Office will prosecute the individual (the individual may also take action against the accountant or whoever).
Finally, usually the more people who are in on a dodgy scheme the greater the chances it will come out sooner rather than later. And agree that players who have been forced to leave the club, if they knew about it, they would have blown the whistle - cause they would have been thinking "well you're cheating the cap to keep everyone else, why not me? Screw you Melbourne Storm."
Charmamba
Life is a Fantasy League
- Jan 9, 2011
- 8,348
- 952
Every player would be at fault for what the storm did if they have contracts sent out by the NRL saying registered.
You sign a contract for $700,000, the NRL sends you back your contract with the stamp at you see it says $400,000..Player is then at fault if he does not inform the NRL or ask Questions.
You sign a contract for $700,000, the NRL sends you back your contract with the stamp at you see it says $400,000..Player is then at fault if he does not inform the NRL or ask Questions.
- Mar 26, 2008
- 7,910
- 6,825
thedman said:
The ATO wouldn't ask where the money came from as long as you declare all of it and pay the correct amount of tax.
Also the money wasn't coming from an illegal source just bypassing the salary cap so all good from what I understand.
If the extra payments were from 3rd party sponsorships I don't think they are included in the NRL contract but have to be declared for auditing purposes as 3rd party deals have to be arranged seperately and the club has no involvement at all.
Smiths 3rd party deals with foxsports have been in question for years because News Ltd own or part own the Storm and fox.
- Mar 26, 2008
- 7,910
- 6,825
As far as hypotheticals go surely clubs could come up with legit ways to pay players outside the cap.
This is just me and a few mates throwing some ideas around .
Nrl clubs have plenty of expenditure on services such as cleaning, security, maintenance to name a few. Is there anything stopping a player from forming a company then the club awarding that company contracts for the above services which are then subcontracted out to other businesses.
The players company then gets paid say $500 000 a year with subcontracting costs at $200 000 a year.
He employs a manager to run it and pockets a dividend from his company or lets the company hold dividends until he has finished his playing carreer.
This is just me and a few mates throwing some ideas around .
Nrl clubs have plenty of expenditure on services such as cleaning, security, maintenance to name a few. Is there anything stopping a player from forming a company then the club awarding that company contracts for the above services which are then subcontracted out to other businesses.
The players company then gets paid say $500 000 a year with subcontracting costs at $200 000 a year.
He employs a manager to run it and pockets a dividend from his company or lets the company hold dividends until he has finished his playing carreer.
