Round 14 Discussion

[Huge]

Not quite. The Storm have been coached to play the way they do for years and years consistently, a formula that just works. We have no rhyme or reason as a team, and haven't for years and years. Given that, we rely on individual talent far too much, so injuries to key players seriously impact us more than they should. We are in no way organised like the Storm, and as I said, to get there takes years of hard work.

For mine, Seibold needs a lot more time to fail at that. His coaching is shit for other reasons, like our appalling defence.

First paragraph nails it but I don't agree with the second. Seibold had players to work with from day dot but there's no Melbourne like structure in place even if he didn't have perfect players. For mine there'd be trace evidence but I saw no innovation nor well rehearsed structure. I'm certain you yourself could have done as well and more likely, a better job.

 

[rnabokov]

Fifita is definitely our one sole player who can pull out some individual brilliance. Staggs I feel teams are starting to work him out as we saw him bundled into touch a few times last week. He’s still deadly close to the line though with the right shapes and ball play. Coates and farnworth are solid at best for now and haven’t really threatened teams too much but we have seen glimpses.

What I long for is the old cliche, a champion team not a team of champions.

Agree with most of your post. As for Staggs, a proper coach would turn him into a deadly weapon anywhere on the park. I still feel he would make a very very good FB, or even maybe a replacement for Fifita.

Farnworth and Coates, again with proper coaching can be stars in their best positions, which are again a matter for a good coach. I like Coates's running. Reminds me of KHunt.

 

[rnabokov]

First paragraph nails it but I don't agree with the second. Seibold had players to work with from day dot but there's no Melbourne like structure in place even if he didn't have perfect players. For mine there'd be trace evidence but I saw no innovation nor well rehearsed structure. I'm certain you yourself could have done as well and more likely, a better job.

Like I said, the question of well rehearsed structures takes a lot of time to develop, maybe a few years to fine tune. Having a revolving door roster doesn't help.

As for me doing a good job on structures, thank you. My mantra for any good manager or coach is to surround yourself with experts to make up for one's shortfalls. Robinson is a good example of that with his psychologist for team morale and motivation, and Fitzgibbon as FT defence coach.

In my case, lol, I would need an awful lot of experts.

 

[Huge]

So at present to use a simple analogy - The water in the pot is at boiling point and controlling its output is currently impossible. Water is spitting and boiling over the sides at the least sign of agitation. What we need is for the heat to be turned down a notch to allow the water to find a steady equilibrium.

How you turn down the heat in a one team town remains to be seen.

I really don't think it's too complex. Watching acrobats at an event or professional ballet dancers usually gives the impression that timing, rhythm and control are effortless but rehearsal makes that happen.

Seiplods approach is inherently flawed because he wanted to start at a point just short of perfection instead of the basics first. It's all well and good to shout 'but but they're professionals' but even Federer, Borg and Tiger Woods had/have coaches to keep fundamentals in place.

There's a YouTube channel called Two Set (pro violinists) and they often say 'if you can play it slow you can play it fast'. I take that to mean first you play it, rehearse slowly but with utmost precision before building to greater pace. Control, timing, rhythm. That's how Melbourne are described.

 

[mrslong]

Which again for mine has made Seibold's job even harder trying to build something entirely new, virtually from scratch. Again, I am not excusing him for his shortcomings, like fixing our defence, just giving a bit of perspective.

At the same time, having Seibold use a mantra of "play what's in front of you" is really only a small part of the picture, or what is needed. We need major surgery, not bandaids

100%. Not excusing Seibold's role in all of this or the board. But definitely Wayne had his part to play. Not saying he has scorched the earth as Newcastle fans would believe, and Seibold has ultimately failed. He could have built on what Wayne set up - but his arrogance led him to completely dismantle a proven rugby league strategy, compounding the issue.

 

[rnabokov]

100%. Not excusing Seibold's role in all of this or the board. But definitely Wayne had his part to play. Not saying he has scorched the earth as Newcastle fans would believe, and Seibold has ultimately failed. He could have built on what Wayne set up - but his arrogance led him to completely dismantle a proven rugby league strategy, compounding the issue.

I agree in part with what you say. Seibold is for mine guilty of hubris, a sort of arrogance where he overestimated his abilities by ignoring his limitations, maybe partly because he was new to the high requirements of NRL level of coaching. At Souths, he had the luxury of relatively settled structures and a high quality settled roster. Different story here, and he underestimated that with predictable results.

As for Seibold dismantling what Bennett had set up, I don't know if he did, or, even if he has, not that it made much difference except in the minds of some senior players.

I again believe that the effectiveness of Wayne's game plan was being eroded by the realities of a game that was changing from the halcyon days of 2015, and has became for mine, exposed as less than adequate with the advent of COVID and the 6 Again Rule. For mine Souths are not in the same league as the top 5 teams. They still rely too much on Reynolds Walker and Cook, on individuals, for everything unlike say the Storm where it doesn't really matter who plays where. They all just fit in. Their whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Seibold was always going to fail. The consequences for him are not nice. His professional life is in tatters.

 

[Kimlo]

Which again for mine has made Seibold's job even harder trying to build something entirely new, virtually from scratch. Again, I am not excusing him for his shortcomings, like fixing our defence, just giving a bit of perspective.

At the same time, having Seibold use a mantra of "play what's in front of you" is really only a small part of the picture, or what is needed. We need major surgery, not bandaids

Couldn't disagree more. Second highest winrate in the competition over Wayne's tenure. The basics were well and truly there, we needed a few key signings, smart roster changes and adding some finesse to our style of play. What we didn't need was a destruction of the roster and to (I cringe everytime) "burn the boats".

This mess is entirely on Seibold, he was frothing at the mouth to take over and left a good club/roster to get here.

Seibold is a total **** up and he should never coach an NRL team again. Nathan Brown is a better coach. He doesn't get to use excuses and apportion blame.

 

[rnabokov]

Couldn't disagree more. Second highest winrate in the competition over Wayne's tenure. The basics were well and truly there, we need a few key signings, smart roster changes and adding some finesse. What we didn't need was a destruction of the roster and a (I cringe everytime) "burn the boats".

This mess is entirely on Seibold, he was frothing at the mouth to take over and left a good club/roster to get here.

Seibold is a total **** up and he should never coach an NRL team again. Nathan Brown is a better coach.

My point is not to deny Bennett the kudos he richly deserves but to give an opinion that those days, those coaching methods are over. I don't think those "Bennett" basics have relevance any more, not least of which his " wait for them" style of defence, one-out running up the middle, and his reliance, similar to Seibold's perversely, too much on quality individuals "playing what's in front of them" as opposed to drilled structures. Contrast his methods to those of Bellamy - they just work whereas Bennett's Souths are nowhere near that level. Take Cook and Walker out of the Rabbits and Souths will struggle, as opposed to how well the Storm are doing sans Munster and Smith.

I don't agree this mess is all on Seibold. He played his part but he is not the problem, he is a part of a much bigger one. I think it's important not to lose sight of that otherwise, the board has an excuse to avoid and evade accountability, and also sets up a new coach to fail to meet our high expectations.

As for Nathan Brown, I will reserve judgement on him until he has a year with his new club, ably assisted by Phil Gould, the effect of which is not to be underestimated

 

[Kimlo]

My point is not to deny Bennett the kudos he richly deserves but to give an opinion that those days, those coaching methods are over. I don't think those "Bennett" basics have relevance any more, not least of which his " wait for them" style of defence, one-out running up the middle, and his reliance, similar to Seibold's perversely, too much on quality individuals "playing what's in front of them" as opposed to drilled structures. Contrast his methods to those of Bellamy - they just work whereas Bennett's Souths are nowhere near that level.

I don't agree this mess is all on Seibold. He played his part but he is not the problem, he is a part of a much bigger one. I think it's important not to lose sight of that otherwise, the board has an excuse to avoid and evade accountability, and also sets up a new coach to fail to meet our high expectations.

As for Nathan Brown, I will reserve judgement on him until he has a year with his new club.

Bennett and Boyd literally pioneered fullbacks defending in the line and basically every team has copied it. It's just trite to say Bennett doesn't understand the modern game. Bennett has never tried to be a tactical genius, he's an A+ man manager and he hires excellent coaching staff around him to focus on the tactical/nuanced stuff. Seibold could learn a lot, who did he hire? Ben fucking Cross, Peter Gentle and Demas Wong. WTF.

No wonder we suck. The entire coaching stuff is rubbish.

 

[rnabokov]

Bennett and Boyd literally pioneered fullbacks defending in the line and basically every team has copied it. It's just trite to say Bennett doesn't understand the modern game. Bennett has never tried to be a tactical genius, he's an A+ man manager and he hires excellent coaching staff around him to focus on the tactical/nuanced stuff. Seibold could learn a lot, who did he hire? Ben fucking Cross, Peter Gentle and Demas Wong. WTF.

No wonder we suck. The entire coaching stuff is rubbish.

Bennett and Boyd certainly did pioneer that style of FB play and now, quality teams are CONSTANTLY exploiting the wide open spaces at the back. The kicking game has evolved a lot more than in those days.

As for the man manager, agree 100%. As for Seibold's assistants, agree 100% and agree 100% that our "entire coaching stuff is rubbish." and that is not just on Seibold, it is on the club as well. I like the Warriors have engaged Gould. Smart move. We should learn from that.

 

[Kimlo]

Bennett and Boyd certainly did pioneer that style of FB play and now, quality teams are CONSTANTLY exploiting the wide open spaces at the back. The kicking game has evolved a lot more than in those days.

As for the man manager, agree 100%. As for Seibold's assistants, agree 100% and agree 100% that our "entire coaching stuff is rubbish." and that is not just on Seibold, it is on the club as well. I like the Warriors have engaged Gould. Smart move. We should learn from that.

My understanding has always been the head coach chooses his coaching staff. So all of these rubbish assistants are his choices. Get Michael Hagan in, get Justin Hodges as assistant coach. Get a coaching staff that the team will come into training on Monday and want to look them in the eye and impress them.

I don't know how much the covid bubble affects things and whether he would have sacked his assistant staff by now, so we'll never know but unfortunately NRL is a cruel industry and time isn't a luxury afforded at high expectation clubs.

 

[rnabokov]

My understanding has always been the head coach chooses his coaching staff. So all of these rubbish assistants are his choices. Get Michael Hagan in, get Justin Hodges as assistant coach. Get a coaching staff that the team will come into training on Monday and want to look them in the eye and impress them.

I don't know how much the covid bubble affects things and whether he would have sacked his assistant staff by now, so we'll never know but unfortunately NRL is a cruel industry and time isn't a luxury afforded at high expectation clubs.

... and get Webcke, even if it's Zoom

 

[Jedhead]

Bennett and Boyd literally pioneered fullbacks defending in the line and basically every team has copied it. It's just trite to say Bennett doesn't understand the modern game. Bennett has never tried to be a tactical genius, he's an A+ man manager and he hires excellent coaching staff around him to focus on the tactical/nuanced stuff. Seibold could learn a lot, who did he hire? Ben fucking Cross, Peter Gentle and Demas Wong. WTF.

No wonder we suck. The entire coaching stuff is rubbish.

I have to agree with your assessment of the support staff Pies selected. Maybe they would gain a pass mark for a low lying ISC team, but the Broncos? I mean we're talking the pride of the league here FFS. In addition, we're not short of a quid so he could have had anybody he liked virtually.

If you're judging his tenure by his support staff alone you have to say he was on a c- right from the start. I say that with all due respect to messers Gentle and Wong.

 

[rnabokov]

I have to agree with your assessment of the support staff Pies selected. Maybe they would gain a pass mark for a low lying ISC team, but the Broncos? I mean we're talking the pride of the league here FFS. In addition, we're not short of a quid so he could have had anybody he liked virtually.

If you're judging his tenure by his support staff alone you have to say he was on a c- right from the start. I say that with all due respect to messers Gentle and Wong.

Fitzgibbon at the Roosters sure looks the goods as defence coach.

 

[Fozz]

‘They’ve just watched their last game’: NRL greats call for life bans over alleged racist abuse

‘Just watched their last game’: NRL greats call for life bans over alleged racist abuse

www.foxsports.com.au

Racial abuse directed at Brent Naden. Pretty disgusting stuff.

 

[Kimlo]

Fitzgibbon at the Roosters sure looks the goods as defence coach.

The club needs to do better. Even if Seibold is a crap head coach, take it out of his hands and hire the best assistant coaching staff out there. We're one of the richest clubs yet we have a work experience coaching staff.

 

[Kimlo]

Dead set though, how good do the Warriors look under Payten?

 

[Sproj]

Dead set though, how good do the Warriors look under Payten?

I’d be signing him or Kevvie yesterday. Payton deadset looks something special.