Round 6 - Tigers vs Broncos - Post Match Discussion

[Anonymous person]

If it hit his hands, then bounced into his chest and then bounced forward, it would've been ruled a knock on, and rightly so.

you mean INCORRECTLY so. even coxy has acknowledged that hands->chest->forwards is not a knock-on, even if a ref rules it is. refs get calls wrong.

and yes, the last time we had this discussion people - i believe you were one of them jeb - were arguing that a ball that hits an attackers chest even without hitting his hands when hes trying to catch it is a knock-on if it goes forwards.

 

[Twiztid]

you mean INCORRECTLY so. even coxy has acknowledged that hands->chest->forwards is not a knock-on, even if a ref rules it is. refs get calls wrong.

It is a knock on though. As soon as you touch the ball with your hands and the ball goes forward either to the ground or into an opposing player it is a knock on, it doesn't matter if it comes off the chest 2nd or not. If it hits the players chest without any contact from their hands then it isn't classed as a knock on.

 

[Coxy]

you mean INCORRECTLY so. even coxy has acknowledged that hands->chest->forwards is not a knock-on, even if a ref rules it is. refs get calls wrong.

No, technically it's not a knock on.
Under the fabric of the game, it is a knock on 100% of the time.

 

[jarro65]

I can't believe this conversation is still going on :confused:

It was a knock-on.

 

[mrslong]

You're not reading the whole phrase. "Drop the ball from the hands". That's a deliberate action. You have to have control of something to drop it. Gillett never had control of it, therefore, not a drop goal. End of debate.

Remember Benji had a try awarded last year for a similar thing, he dropped the ball cold, got a boot to it and they said that it was a drop kick. Not disagreeing with you, just remembered him get away with it. I actually think it could have been against the Broncos??? HMMM!

 

[Coxy]

Remember Benji had a try awarded last year for a similar thing, he dropped the ball cold, got a boot to it and they said that it was a drop kick. Not disagreeing with you, just remembered him get away with it. I actually think it could have been against the Broncos??? HMMM!

It was against the Dragons in the semis. The ruling was that he got his foot to it before it hit the ground. The video referee's eyes were painted on.

 

[Anonymous person]

It is a knock on though. As soon as you touch the ball with your hands and the ball goes forward either to the ground or into an opposing player it is a knock on, it doesn't matter if it comes off the chest 2nd or not. If it hits the players chest without any contact from their hands then it isn't classed as a knock on.

think about what youre saying:

"As soon as you touch the ball with your hands and the ball goes forward"

"it doesn't matter if it comes off the chest 2nd or not"

if it comes off your chest AFTER your hands then it obviously didnt go forward, did it? and it doesnt matter what you THINK the rules might be, the fact is that the rule book says that for it to be a knock-on the LAST thing that the ball touches before it hits either the ground in a forward direction or an opposition player has to be your arm/hand. not chest, not head, your arm/hand. hand->chest->ground is 100% play on. hand->ground is not. just like how if you drop the ball accidentally but it hits your foot before it hits the ground its not a knock on, hand to chest to ground is not a knock-on.

 

[nathano11]

The rule book is inconsistent how it's not a knock on off the chest, but you can score a try with downward pressure from the chest. I reckon if you can force a try with your chest, it should also be deemed a knock on off the chest, or if it's not played at off the chest, you shouldn't be able to score a try with your chest

 

[Twiztid]

think about what youre saying:

"As soon as you touch the ball with your hands and the ball goes forward"

"it doesn't matter if it comes off the chest 2nd or not"


if it comes off your chest AFTER your hands then it obviously didnt go forward, did it?

It didn't go forward from your hands because it hasn't touched the ground or hit an opposing player or the other things (see below). If you do not regather the ball after it has hit your chest, it is still classified as a knock on. Because as we are all telling you, the ball is counted as being in your possession when you touch the ball with your hands.

and it doesnt matter what you THINK the rules might be, the fact is that the rule book says that for it to be a knock-on the LAST thing that the ball touches before it hits either the ground in a forward direction or an opposition player has to be your arm/hand.

This is what I got from the 2011 Rulebook on the NSWRL website from - http://admin.nrl.sportal.net.au/site/_content/document/00001820-source.pdf

SECTION 10
KNOCK-ON AND FORWARD PASS
Deliberate 1. A player shall be penalised if he deliberately knocks on or passes forward.
Accidental 2. If, after knocking-on accidentally, the player knocking-on regains or kicks the ball before it touches the ground, a goal post, cross bar or an opponent, then play shall be allowed to proceed.
Otherwise play shall stop and a scrum shall be formed except after the fifth play-the-ball.
Charge-down 3. To charge-down a kick is permissible and is not a knock-on.
Heading the ball 4. It is illegal to head the ball in a forward direction.

So by that idea and as what I THINK the ruling is. Once you touch the ball with your hands the ball is in your possession. If at any time you drop the ball forward not matter if it hits your chest. If you do not grab it with your hands before it touches the above things then it is classified as a knock on. You are not allowed to head the ball on purpose and last time I checked your head would be in the same line as your chest if your hands were in front of you.

not chest, not head, your arm/hand. hand->chest->ground is 100% play on. hand->ground is not. just like how if you drop the ball accidentally but it hits your foot before it hits the ground its not a knock on, hand to chest to ground is not a knock-on.

I have just proved that you are wrong with facts and you should admit it. If you still think you are right, prove it. Find a better ruling from an Official NRL rulebook (something I have been unable to find for years) that might give more information on the rulings or provide videos to prove your side.

I'll even help you - go to the NRL website and view the Video section called "2012 smart video replay", when inside there go look at the "Errors". This will shortcut the errors in a match and you can go through and see every error the NRL video crew has deemed so and most errors are usually when you drop the ball and I will bet you will find a fair few hand->chest-> ground calls being classed as knock ons.

 

[Bucking Beads]

The rule book obviously wasn't written with common sense in mind.

 

[Anonymous person]

I have just proved that you are wrong with facts and you should admit it.

are you serious? the rules you just posted dont really prove much because you left out the definition of knock-on lol. i have posted it in this very thread, from the NRL rules, and it DOES NOT MENTION ANYTHING OTHER THAN HANDS AND THE DIRECTION THAT THE BALL TRAVELS FROM THEM. if it goes backwards from the hands, it doesnt matter what happens after that - its a knock-back. if it goes forwards, that is when the rule you posted comes in to play:

"If, after knocking-on accidentally, the player knocking-on regains or kicks the ball before it touches the ground, a goal post, cross bar or an opponent, then play shall be allowed to proceed."

thats just saying that if it comes FORWARDS from your hands, if you regather or kick it before it hits the ground or an opposition player, its play on.

dropped balls can be put in 2 categories basically.

1. dropped backwards from hands.
2. dropped forwards from hands.

1 is ALWAYS a knock back. always.
2 has 2 sub categories:
- 2.1 regathered/kicked before hitting ground/opposition player
- 2.2 not regathered/kicked before hitting ground/opposition player

2.1 is play on, 2.2 is knock-on.

im seriously stumped as to how people find this so hard to understand. IF IT COMES OFF YOUR HANDS AND GOES BACKWARDS, IT CANNOT BE RULED A KNOCK ON! knock on by definition is FORWARDS from the hands lol. not chest, not head, not leg - HANDS!

"Find a better ruling from an Official NRL rulebook (something I have been unable to find for years) that might give more information on the rulings or provide videos to prove your side. "

i have proven without a shadow of a doubt using the official nrl rulebook that a knock-on is only a knock-on if it goes forwards from your hands lol. i even linked to it in this thread, with the quote that says it lol.

 

[Jeba]

Everyone knows what you are saying AP, but what you seem to lack is the ability to apply common sense. I don't care what a rulebook says, and I dont think the majority do either. What I care about is professionalism and the fabric of the game. There is not one player, coach or club official who would even think about complaining if a player had a knock on ruled against him, after the ball hit his hands, went onto the chest and then forward. Don't believe me? Well then find me some examples, because those types of errors would occur at least once a round, and I've never heard anyone complain about an incorrect decision.

We don't want laziness and clumsiness to go unnoticed in our game. Well, when I say we, I mean everyone who watches Rugby League except for you.

 

[Twiztid]

It was against the Dragons in the semis. The ruling was that he got his foot to it before it hit the ground. The video referee's eyes were painted on.

http://www.nrl.com/Video/2011SmartR...videoquality=1&type=blooper&period=1&time=225

It should been classed as a knock on from either just before the kick or when he regathers at it looks like it goes Dragon - Benji - Dragon (knock on) Benji - Benji, The problem is the ruling says "DROP KICK is a kick whereby the ball is dropped from the hands (or hand) and is kicked immediately after it rebounds from the ground." So there is a slim chance they could say he performed an attempted drop goal and why they rewarded it but it really is just stupid to think it was.

How cool would it have been if this was then classed as a field goal - http://www.nrl.com/Video/2012SmartR...ideoquality=1&type=blooper&period=1&time=1170

 

[Fozz]

*snore*

 

[Twiztid]

dropped balls can be put in 2 categories basically.

1. dropped backwards from hands.
2. dropped forwards from hands.

1 is ALWAYS a knock back. always.
2 has 2 sub categories:
- 2.1 regathered/kicked before hitting ground/opposition player
- 2.2 not regathered/kicked before hitting ground/opposition player

2.1 is play on, 2.2 is knock-on.

im seriously stumped as to how people find this so hard to understand. IF IT COMES OFF YOUR HANDS AND GOES BACKWARDS, IT CANNOT BE RULED A KNOCK ON! knock on by definition is FORWARDS from the hands lol. not chest, not head, not leg - HANDS!

See this is where you are missing the point. The ball can go backwards from your hands but until the ball hits the ground it can not be judged to have gone backwards or forwards as that is defined by the position of the player and direction of the opposing dead ball line.

So if you knock it backwards into your chest by using your hands, even though it has travelled backwards into your chest and it lands in front of your legs that is a knock on as the position of the ball has hit the ground in front of you. If you some how had a huge hole in your chest that the ball could go through to behind you, then it would be a knock back.

"Find a better ruling from an Official NRL rulebook (something I have been unable to find for years) that might give more information on the rulings or provide videos to prove your side. "

i have proven without a shadow of a doubt using the official nrl rulebook that a knock-on is only a knock-on if it goes forwards from your hands lol. i even linked to it in this thread, with the quote that says it lol.

You actually haven't proven anything, but I apologise I didn't read the first 4 pages of the thread and jumped in on the end. But my Rulebook seems to be the 2011 edition compared to your 2004 version. Though all rulings regarding knock ons are the same.

 

[Bucking Beads]

Just **** off AP, you're trying to debate about **** that no one cares about, and you're the only one that has these long winded arguments about ******ed crap. So over it!

It's like you read everybody's mind.

 

[Anonymous person]

See this is where you are missing the point. The ball can go backwards from your hands but until the ball hits the ground it can not be judged to have gone backwards or forwards as that is defined by the position of the player and direction of the opposing dead ball line.

wrong. just wrong.

it is not defined by the position of the player, it is defined by the direction that it (the ball) goes when it comes off the players hands. it does not need to touch the ground.

"You actually haven't proven anything, but I apologise I didn't read the first 4 pages of the thread and jumped in on the end. But my Rulebook seems to be the 2011 edition compared to your 2004 version. Though all rulings regarding knock ons are the same."

so hang on.....i didnt prove anything, even though the rules I quoted are 100% exactly the same as the ones you did, and im right concerning them?

 

[Twiztid]

it is not defined by the position of the player, it is defined by the direction that it (the ball) goes when it comes off the players hands. it does not need to touch the ground.

Yes it is defined by the direction the ball goes (towards the opposing deadball line). The direction is obviously defined by the position of the player and the direction he is facing. If he is facing his own deadball line and then drops it hands->ground or hands->chest->ground it isn't a knock on as the ball is landing in the direction to his own deadball line even though he knocks it in front of himself.

If he is facing the side line then they have to work out which direction the ball goes by his position and which way the opposing dead ball line is.

If he is facing forward then obviously if the ball lands infront of him because that is in front of him towards the direction of the opposing deadball line, then it is a knock on.

It doesn't have to just hit the ground, it can hit any of those other things mention a few posts above.

Think of this idea - if you drop the ball from your out stretched hands and the ball lands an inch in front of your boot and never attempted to kick it. Though the ball has technically travelled backwards from your hands, your position is defined by your feet and this is a knock on. This is why they define onside by your feet when scoring from kicks.

so hang on.....i didnt prove anything, even though the rules I quoted are 100% exactly the same as the ones you did, and im right concerning them?

We are 100% quoting the same rules but your understanding of the rules are wrong and the only thing I can see that you are stubbornly disputing is because they do not have a sub section regarding contact with the "chest" like they do the head.

As everyone is trying to tell you including myself that contact with the chest after touching your hands means nothing if the ball lands in front of you. If it some how hit your hands -> chest -> and went flying over your shoulder behind you then that would be play on and be counted as backwards, depending on which direction the player is facing and if the ball went towards his own deadball line.


Maybe call the NRL or ARL to fix up their rulebook to define it better so you understand it. Even tough I feel the Official copy that NRL ref's see are more in depth than the ones we are using here. Anyways I am out, you are obviously stuck on you are right and everyone else on here is wrong and by that I feel you are just fishing for responses so enjoy.