Should Accused Players be Suspended?

Tom said:
If players could be suspended on accusations alone I would not put it past some of the scummier clubs to employ honeytraps that make false accusations on the eve of finals games.
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Or even just opposition fan’s trying to bait players in to an altercation, making highly exaggerated complaints to the police, knowing they’ll be suspended even if they did nothing wrong.
 
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I think they should be suspended once they appear in court. In that case, the police and prosecutors will have been convinced they have a case to answer.


This whole honeypot/false accusation thing is a ridiculous. That is a criminal offence, are people seriously going to risk going to jail for the chance they can get a player suspended?
 
Fozz said:
I think they should be suspended once they appear in court. In that case, the police and prosecutors will have been convinced they have a case to answer.


This whole honeypot/false accusation thing is a ridiculous. That is a criminal offence, are people seriously going to risk going to jail for the chance they can get a player suspended?
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When was the last time a woman went to prison for making a false rape allegation? Genuinely curious.
 
Tom said:
Ok but not really the scenario I meant .That guy is probably lucky he was with family and friends at the time of the alleged incident. When consensual sex occurs is more what I meant.
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I can't answer that question.

At the end of the day the legal system requires guilt to be decided beyond reasonable doubt, if a rape case fails to produce a conviction that doesn't mean a false accusation was made merely that it couldn't be proven beyond reasonable doubt. On that basis, it would be difficult to turn around and convict the accuser.

I know there are deadset shit people around but I just find hard to believe that there could be people out there who would risk jail time for a football game. I'm not talking about the DeBellin case but the hypothetical honeypot/false accusation scenario mentioned in this thread. Are we really saying there are women out there who will go out and have sex with a player with the intent of getting him suspended? It's ridiculous.
 
Fozz said:
Are we really saying there are women out there who will go out and have sex with a player with the intent of getting him suspended?
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Sometimes the intent is far more sinister than that.
 
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Tom said:
Exactly. Which is why players shouldn't be suspended on accusations alone.
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Government employees facing charges are suspended. Cops facing charges are suspended. Suspension doesn't erase the presumption of innocence in court.

The CBA needs to cover this situation in black and white, if they agree that players going through the court process should be suspended then suspend them otherwise it should say they are free play and train until the conclusion of the process. It needs to be set out clearly otherwise we have this cropping up every season.
 
broncospwn said:
Why not? If he's suspended with pay I don't see anything wrong with it. This is a serious accusation. What if it was murder? Do we let them play out a few years while the case is determined in court? It's up to the club/NRL ultimately but given the seriousness of the accusation I can't see how either A) He should play or B) If it's even fair on him to be expected to play given the extreme scrutiny he'll be under in such a public profession.

This is an accusation of violent rape, it's not quite on the same level as a sexual assault allegation of "he touched my thigh" and charges have been laid.
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The AOC do this. If you are charged with a crime, you cannot be picked for the Olympics. Good enough for them, good enough for the NRL
 
Tom said:
Exactly. Which is why players shouldn't be suspended on accusations alone.
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you're right, they shouldn't be suspended on accusations alone ... but it is a completely different story when those accusations are accompanied by a criminal charge.

the police don't go around frivolously charging people ... there needs to be some evidence to indicate a person's guilt.
 
Not sure if I should post this here or in the 'hot water' thread. Some players are in more trouble than others but I want to talk about both.

'Whenever I hear of the latest rugby league off-season infamy, I realise I’ve led a sheltered life. Not only have I never known anyone who has done what, say, Jarryd Hayne is accused of doing on grand final night, I’ve never known anyone who has done what Hayne’s supporters defend him for doing (visiting a complete stranger in a faraway place, keeping the taxi running, out of the house a few innocent-filled fun minutes later). Name the summertime rogues’ gallery through the years - Mitchell Pearce, Ben Barba, Todd Carney, Matt Lodge, Ben Barba, Jack de Belin, Dylan Napa, Ben Barba - and I don’t know anyone who even knows anyone else who’s done some of that stuff. It’s all very eye-opening.'

Malcolm Knox kicked off his take on the off-season from hell with the above passage. I feel the same. Forget the criminal charges. Personally, I don't know anyone who has participated in, filmed and/or released a sex tape. I don't know anyone who knows anyone that's done it.

I'm fairly old-fashioned. It seems a gentleman most certainly does tell these days. And films it. Or one of his mates does.

I don't know if players should be stood down if charged. I don't think it's black and white. The NRL integrity unit is on a hiding to nothing though. Consider the Dylan Walker situation. Roy Masters pointed out something I found peculiar. Walker had the support of his partner (the one he's accused of assaulting) when he fronted up for court.

Masters writes:

'When NSW police arrived at Walker’s home, they filmed his partner giving evidence. Four days later, the couple arrived in a Manly court, hand in hand. The magistrate was therefore confronted by two contrasting pieces of evidence: video of a distraught young woman accusing her partner of domestic violence and the sight of a loving couple. The magistrate eventually decided to send Walker’s case to trial later this month.

If the judicial system finds it difficult to resolve these matters, how can a sport that is primarily concerned with staging eight matches a week be expected to act with the wisdom of Solomon?'

That's kinda weird right? Or is it normal for the victim to support the accused? Genuine question. Again, this is not a world I'm familiar with.

Webster said in a recent article that more tapes are due to drop. Another one just yesterday said new sponsors can't be bothered with Rugby League. In grand Rugby League tradition I expect a tape to be leaked on the eve of round one.

Timing is everything, fellas.

My question to fans is this - what level of degeneracy does the game need to descend to before we decide there are better ways to spend the weekend?

Or am I being too harsh? Is it just a couple of bad eggs that are ruining it for the rest of the players, fans, sponsors, etc?

One of the positives has been the reaction of the fan base. You can't find too many fans that are upset a guy like Barba is out of the game.

Are we getting smarter? Compare the reaction to him with the reaction to Lodge and Lodge can probably thank his lucky stars he's still in the game. What a climate we live in now and what a difference twelve months makes.

Are we catching on to the fact that the clubs and the game can't keep playing up their hospital visits and charity work while downplaying their sex taping, coke snorting, dog humping, partner bashing antics?

Does the NRL applaud us or secretly resent us? I've never known a sport that treats its fans with the contempt the NRL does so would be keen to know.
 
Foordy said:
you're right, they shouldn't be suspended on accusations alone ... but it is a completely different story when those accusations are accompanied by a criminal charge.

the police don't go around frivolously charging people ... there needs to be some evidence to indicate a person's guilt.
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The problem is that evidence could be false evidence. False accusations are common which leads to false evidence being used. There have even been cases of police creating evidence to suit a narrative. I'm not saying that's what is happening here, but these are possibilities you simply cannot rule out. One thing that's been clear from past cases is that the police don't even need much to charge. The biggest reasons why sexual assault cases mostly don't lead to convictions is lack of evidence and no witnesses.

Just because JDB has been charged and it's been taken to court, it does not mean they even have anything that can lead to a conviction. They just need to believe they can convict him.

An accusation that's led to a charge but still an accusation.

Sexual assault cases can take 2-3 years to finalize. It could be 2021 before JDB even learns his fate. If he is suspended and it takes that amount of time to learn his fate and he ends up being found not guilty, which is likely, he's just been robbed several years of his career over an accusation. Like I said before, it's a road the NRL does not want go down. It can lead to much bigger problems for them down the road.

He still has the right to a presumption of innocence and allowed to continue working in his profession.
 
CaptainHook said:
Not sure if I should post this here or in the 'hot water' thread. Some players are in more trouble than others but I want to talk about both.

'Whenever I hear of the latest rugby league off-season infamy, I realise I’ve led a sheltered life. Not only have I never known anyone who has done what, say, Jarryd Hayne is accused of doing on grand final night, I’ve never known anyone who has done what Hayne’s supporters defend him for doing (visiting a complete stranger in a faraway place, keeping the taxi running, out of the house a few innocent-filled fun minutes later). Name the summertime rogues’ gallery through the years - Mitchell Pearce, Ben Barba, Todd Carney, Matt Lodge, Ben Barba, Jack de Belin, Dylan Napa, Ben Barba - and I don’t know anyone who even knows anyone else who’s done some of that stuff. It’s all very eye-opening.'

Malcolm Knox kicked off his take on the off-season from hell with the above passage. I feel the same. Forget the criminal charges. Personally, I don't know anyone who has participated in, filmed and/or released a sex tape. I don't know anyone who knows anyone that's done it.

I'm fairly old-fashioned. It seems a gentleman most certainly does tell these days. And films it. Or one of his mates does.

I don't know if players should be stood down if charged. I don't think it's black and white. The NRL integrity unit is on a hiding to nothing though. Consider the Dylan Walker situation. Roy Masters pointed out something I found peculiar. Walker had the support of his partner (the one he's accused of assaulting) when he fronted up for court.

Masters writes:

'When NSW police arrived at Walker’s home, they filmed his partner giving evidence. Four days later, the couple arrived in a Manly court, hand in hand. The magistrate was therefore confronted by two contrasting pieces of evidence: video of a distraught young woman accusing her partner of domestic violence and the sight of a loving couple. The magistrate eventually decided to send Walker’s case to trial later this month.

If the judicial system finds it difficult to resolve these matters, how can a sport that is primarily concerned with staging eight matches a week be expected to act with the wisdom of Solomon?'

That's kinda weird right? Or is it normal for the victim to support the accused? Genuine question. Again, this is not a world I'm familiar with.

Webster said in a recent article that more tapes are due to drop. Another one just yesterday said new sponsors can't be bothered with Rugby League. In grand Rugby League tradition I expect a tape to be leaked on the eve of round one.

Timing is everything, fellas.

My question to fans is this - what level of degeneracy does the game need to descend to before we decide there are better ways to spend the weekend?

Or am I being too harsh? Is it just a couple of bad eggs that are ruining it for the rest of the players, fans, sponsors, etc?

One of the positives has been the reaction of the fan base. You can't find too many fans that are upset a guy like Barba is out of the game.

Are we getting smarter? Compare the reaction to him with the reaction to Lodge and Lodge can probably thank his lucky stars he's still in the game. What a climate we live in now and what a difference twelve months makes.

Are we catching on to the fact that the clubs and the game can't keep playing up their hospital visits and charity work while downplaying their sex taping, coke snorting, dog humping, partner bashing antics?

Does the NRL applaud us or secretly resent us? I've never known a sport that treats its fans with the contempt the NRL does so would be keen to know.
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What’s the source?
 
NRL clubs get salary relief for accused players

FEBRUARY 14, 2019

St George Illawarra will be offered $600,000 in salary cap relief if star player Jack de Belin is stood down by the NRL this week while he fights sexual assault charges.

The Daily Telegraph can reveal that any club forced to stand down a player facing serious criminal charges in future will receive compensation to ensure the club and their fans are not penalised.

Under the new plan, clubs could sign a replacement player on a short-term agreement. De Belin is on $600,000 at the Saints.

The games independent commission is tipped to rubber stamp the new proposal on Thursday.

If de Belin is stood down, as expected, he would remain on full pay until his court case has been finalised, which could take as long as 18 months.

Clubs have previously been reluctant to accept suspensions because of the effect on their playing rosters.

The Roosters influential supremo Nick Politis told The Daily Telegraph last week: “The problem is you are penalising the club and the fans more than the player.

That's not fair on the clubs.

NRL independent commission chairman Peter Beattie has taken the comments on board.

This element of the debate will be discussed on Thursday," Mr Beattie said.

We've got to be fair to the clubs if the rules are going to be changed.

Both Beattie and NRL chief executive Todd Greenberg will meet with St George Illawarra boss Brian Johnston and the players union on Tuesday before determining a final outcome on de Belin's immediate future.

The Rugby League Players Association has been slammed by critics for its weak attitude regarding player behaviour and their refusal to recognise the brand damage that has been caused during the off-season.

The problem for the Dragons will be finding a suitable replacement for de Belin at short notice.

There are no middle forwards of anywhere near his ability currently on the open market.

Clubs' rosters are all-but finalised for the year and those players potentially available are unlikely to be of the same on-field quality.

However, players could become available if the NRL comes down hard on the Cronulla Sharks and Wests Tigers over salary cap rorting.

The two clubs could be forced to pay several hundred thousand under the cap this year.

De Belin was spotted wearing only his swimmers outside WIN Stadium in Wollongong on Monday.

The 27-year-old - who was ruled out of St George Illawarra's trial clash against Newcastle due to a virus last week - was seen walking a dog with teammate Euan Aitken before they joined other players for a game of basketball.

De Belin is accused of sexually assaulting a 19-year-old woman at his cousin’s apartment after a night out in Wollongong in December last year.

Police have alleged that during the incident he told his friend to "come have a go"

De Belin has pleaded not guilty to the charge of aggravated sexual assault and his matter will return to court on April 17.

He has successfully had his bail conditions varied so he does not need to report to police every Monday and Friday. He has also surrendered his passport.

De Belin's case has been thrust into the spotlight after what has been a horror NRL off-season, plagued by bad player behaviour.

Source: Courier Mail
 
That’s bullshit. If you want to rub bad behaviour out of the game, don’t reward the clubs that sign the *****.

I get that they’re trying to get clubs to be more open with their players getting in trouble, and “rewarding” them for taking a tough stance to stand them down, but that should be the risk involved in signing players with a history of off-field issues.

Of course Politis was up for this. The next under-performing player doesn’t have to fail a drug test. They just have to have some random accuse a player of something and the Roosters can sign whoever they want as a replacement.
 
So we as a club would be better off if Haas had been charged? Or does De Belin have to sit out the season while a replacement takes his place in the top 30? Can he come back if found not guilty and the new bloke replacing him has to piss off? This sounds complicated, not sure the NRL are up to handling complicated senarios.
 
Morkel said:
That’s bullshit. If you want to rub bad behaviour out of the game, don’t reward the clubs that sign the *****.

I get that they’re trying to get clubs to be more open with their players getting in trouble, and “rewarding” them for taking a tough stance to stand them down, but that should be the risk involved in signing players with a history of off-field issues.

Of course Politis was up for this. The next under-performing player doesn’t have to fail a drug test. They just have to have some random accuse a player of something and the Roosters can sign whoever they want as a replacement.
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This should have nothing to do with signing fuckwits. JdB was not a known troublemaker before this accusation came forth, and I think this is a fair measure to ensure clubs don't suffer the consequences of losing a player long term, not only for this reason, but also for something like a season ending injury.

In practice, the clubs will suffer regardless, because there generally won't be players available out there to cover the loss as the article said. And as tommy Tom said, how do you deal with the replacement player, or what constitutes a "short-term agreement", and how do you deal if/when a player is acquitted of the charge(s)?

Besides, it still doesn't address the "lesser offenses" like DUI or the more common "bringing the game into disrepute" scenarios like Payne Haas, for which there is no solution that doesn't "punish" the club and fans... but that's something every code has to deal with, albeit nowhere near as often as the NRL.
This comes down to the NRL being consistent in rubbing fuckwits out of the game, protecting the code and some clubs from their idiots in charge (see latest example in Eels with Salmon and Sharks with Segs), who regard ethics as an afterthought...
 
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