NEWS Sleepy Joe: he attacked us

[NSW stables]

Can't agree. Bend the line? The point is the line can be bent which ever style of defence is used. The issue is the tackling effectiveness and the speed the line coordinates and reforms is what counts. As I see it, a quick play the ball is particularly effective against sloppy marker defence and a defensive line which hasn't reformed because of the play the ball speed. The defence we used in 2015 had our line formed ready and waiting no matter what.

Either defensive structure will work provided the tackles count and the line is always formed waiting and ready with cover - everyone helping everyone else, exactly what we did back then, and what the Roosters did tonight.

The issue with the passive defence is that you typically lose the collision, and the momentum goes with the attacker. Additionally, by not moving up the attack has a greater opportunity to move the ball around, think and identify weak points in the line, create opportunities and gaps or get to the weaker defenders. Whilst looking at teams with agressive line speed, cronk got through GF with a busted scapula because their defence cut melbourne's opportunity to get to him.

In 2015 this defence worked because our goal line defence moved up off the line, cutting the opposition teams time to move the ball around (in effect achieving what aggressive line speed does) and we showed great desperation. We dont have that anymore. On top of this, we could also defend this way because the 2015 broncos could score from anywhere on the field and score long distance tries, this is not something we can do as often and it is reflected in our difficulties scoring points.

 

[rnabokov]

The issue with the passive defence is that you typically lose the collision, and the momentum goes with the attacker. Additionally, by not moving up the attack has a greater opportunity to move the ball around, think and identify weak points in the line, create opportunities and gaps or get to the weaker defenders. Whilst looking at teams with agressive line speed, cronk got through GF with a busted scapula because their defence cut melbourne's opportunity to get to him.

In 2015 this defence worked because our goal line defence moved up off the line, cutting the opposition teams time to move the ball around (in effect achieving what aggressive line speed does) and we showed great desperation. We dont have that anymore. On top of this, we could also defend this way because the 2015 broncos could score from anywhere on the field and score long distance tries, this is not something we can do as often and it is reflected in our difficulties scoring points.

I agree with most of what you say. My reply is that first, as an example, our 2015 side didn't lose the collision as you put it, there were always 2 or 3 defenders in, wrestled the attacker while he was upright and not on the ground (much) before putting them on their back, which stopped any momentum. That was the key. Hold up (literally) the play the ball and stop the offload. As for weak points, there weren't any. And that's the key - that side, as you rightly point out, was coached to defensive perfection (almost) whereas we are using the structure without being trained and drilled to do it any sort of justice. Without that coaching, and as you again rightly say - desperation, the "wait for it"defence is a turnstile.

What you said about the scoring potential of then and now is of course 100% - a 100% tragedy that hopefully will improve when we get our best side on the park, which itself becomes difficult with the Staggs injury. Dammit, we can't take a trick.

I have posted this link about our 2015 a few times now, sorry for being repetitive. I just get a blast from watching how good we were back then.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2015/06/24/the-breakdown-with-matt-elliott-broncos-defence/

And, it is a credit to Bennett for giving the players the self belief and attitude needed to defend like that, as a group, and individually. I keep wondering if Seibold's analytic style lacks that key element of building self belief and team spirit.

 

[Gaz]

The best wrestling teams use their tactics while the ball-runner is still upright, holding them up and slowly dancing them around while their defensive line sets, before the tackled player is on the ground.

We do this, but not so well.

On far too many occasions the held up attacking player is allowed to pop the ball causing second phase play before we can get him to the ground. Resulting in our resetting defensive line, assuming the tackle is made, having their backs to the play and getting their pants pulled down.

This comes down to technique, something Rhino will fix.

 

[Fernando]

Not to mention, Melbourne's overall mental attitude and desire to win every game is light years ahead of ours.

This is the biggest issue of them all.

 

[Kooly87]

So is Ryan working for us and the Reds?

Could you blame him?

If I was guessing which organisation will definitely still be around in 12 months time to be able to continue paying my salary, I know which way I'd be hedging my bets.

 

[Morkel]

No you're 100% right , the game hasn't sped up at all.

You didn't ready what I said, it appears you only saw that I disagreed with part of your argument and then deflected.

The game has sped up, but not because the new refereeing is eliminating wrestling.

 

[Organix]

Could you blame him?

If I was guessing which organisation will definitely still be around in 12 months time to be able to continue paying my salary, I know which way I'd be hedging my bets.

No, I would not blame him, but it was a genuine question. Is he working 2 jobs?

 

[1910]

So is Ryan working for us and the Reds?

No he left the Reds in April. Because he was a contractor the QRU stood him down- his defence company is Ryno TT- Tackle Tech.

 

[Dexter]

You didn't ready what I said, it appears you only saw that I disagreed with part of your argument and then deflected.

The game has sped up, but not because the new refereeing is eliminating wrestling.

Yeah I just figured you missed my point about the game being quicker .

 

[rnabokov]

Yeah I just figured you missed my point about the game being quicker .

I'll butt in here about the game speeding up. You said it well before when you posted about the Manly game :

"Watching Manly just form up in attack so easily and quickly shows how far away we are.
We have to get tired the way we play.
Chooks did it as well. They just get it a point in the field then the 6 or 1 switches to make the extra man and just like that we are short a defender.
That's coaching."

"That's coaching" is right. For mine the game has sped up significantly, from years ago when forming and reforming shapes, both attack and defence became a feature of the top sides. The 6-Again Rule just adds to that rather than explaining the speed of the game which is already super fast the way the top sides play. It has done nothing for us because we have no shapes or defensive structures to take advantage of the new rule.

It also helps to have halves and hooker who take advantage of set shapes and run like hell at the defensive line to exploit sluggish, ill formed defensive lines. Keary and Moses are experts at that because they have structures in place on the field which allows them to do just that. Their attacking shape has supports set deep and wide, and as the old saying goes, "bodies in motion". The ball does the work. That's good football.

We don't. Milf and Croft are knobbled because of this, separate to any criticisms of them not taking on the line. We have no support plays set to take advantage of any line running. The best we can do is hope for offloads from say Haas and hope someone is running in support.

We haven't adapted well to the speed of the game. We were great in '15 and '16 and have fallen away since. And again, as you say, that's a coaching issue first and foremost.

 

[Dexter]

Yep. That first try of the chooks last night was superb
Keary started on the left side of the posts and on the next play he sweeps around the ruck while signalling to those on the right side to stay out.
Crighton is next to the ruck and makes the effort to sweep around the back of teddy and manu who immediately straightens and runs the block play.
Teddy gets the ball and finds Crighton who scores .
**** me it was so easy for them .
I just hate admiring them but it's hard not to.

 

[rnabokov]

Yep. That first try of the chooks last night was superb
Keary started on the left side of the posts and on the next play he sweeps around the ruck while signalling to those on the right side to stay out.
Crighton is next to the ruck and makes the effort to sweep around the back of teddy and manu who immediately straightens and runs the block play.
Teddy gets the ball and finds Crighton who scores .
**** me it was so easy for them .
I just hate admiring them but it's hard not to.

They are like this well oiled machine, great plays all over the park in attack and defence. You don't need individual brilliance to make things happen in that situation although it does help. Look at Tedesco and what he adds to the already well set shapes. They make it easier for him to showcase his talents. I wonder how he would go in our team as it is set up at the moment.

Equally, and I know this is a sore point with many here, if Milford was playing 5/8 for the Roosters, for mine he would absolutely come into his own and kill it with his running game and ball skills. He has it all. We just don't give him opportunities to show them off.

 

[BroncsFan]

I'll butt in here about the game speeding up. You said it well before when you posted about the Manly game :

"Watching Manly just form up in attack so easily and quickly shows how far away we are.
We have to get tired the way we play.
Chooks did it as well. They just get it a point in the field then the 6 or 1 switches to make the extra man and just like that we are short a defender.
That's coaching."

"That's coaching" is right. For mine the game has sped up significantly, from years ago when forming and reforming shapes, both attack and defence became a feature of the top sides. The 6-Again Rule just adds to that rather than explaining the speed of the game which is already super fast the way the top sides play. It has done nothing for us because we have no shapes or defensive structures to take advantage of the new rule.

It also helps to have halves and hooker who take advantage of set shapes and run like hell at the defensive line to exploit sluggish, ill formed defensive lines. Keary and Moses are experts at that because they have structures in place on the field which allows them to do just that. Their attacking shape has supports set deep and wide, and as the old saying goes, "bodies in motion". The ball does the work. That's good football.

We don't. Milf and Croft are knobbled because of this, separate to any criticisms of them not taking on the line. We have no support plays set to take advantage of any line running. The best we can do is hope for offloads from say Haas and hope someone is running in support.

We haven't adapted well to the speed of the game. We were great in '15 and '16 and have fallen away since. And again, as you say, that's a coaching issue first and foremost.

What's odd to me is that Souths 2018 were playing that heads up game plan to exploit defences... so I'm thinking it's an inability for the coach to get across what he wants his players to do (simplifying the role for each player)... or the players being unable to actually do it (previous style too embedded in them).

I think fitness must be an issue as well... a huge emphasis in the preseason was whipping them into shape and I think in rounds 1 & 2 we had no issues with the opposition, whereas now we look completely spent if the opposition get back to back sets. You can't just lose that and the covid break of 8 weeks or so is actually longer than what they get at the end of the year so it's like all the gains over preseason may have been lost straight away by an impromptu off season almost immediately into the season

We've also had no ball or roll on through the forwards to get an idea of what we might look like... it's extremely fucking frustrating watching each week with 30 fucking percent of possession and no territory.

I mean even the fucking Bulldogs managed to get 49% possession last night despite being destroyed by the roosters.

 

[Morkel]

We can get in to attacking formation quite fast, and create opportunities easily. We just either haven't had the field position to be able to call those plays, or if we have, we've often bombed them. I'm pretty sure I've seen 3 tries bombed in Rounds 3 & 4 where the kicks were perfect but the would-be-scorer dropped the ball (Boyd x2, Milf x1 ???).

Just look at last week to show the difference possession & field position makes. We should have been up 24-0, because we frustrated Manly in to errors, and made our attacking opportunities count (even if the refs did their part to deny us). The second half we dropped the ball, compounded errors with penalties, and had little field position or posession, and went 0-20 instead.

 

[rnabokov]

We can get in to attacking formation quite fast, and create opportunities easily. We just either haven't had the field position to be able to call those plays, or if we have, we've often bombed them. I'm pretty sure I've seen 3 tries bombed in Rounds 3 & 4 where the kicks were perfect but the would-be-scorer dropped the ball (Boyd x2, Milf x1 ???).

Just look at last week to show the difference possession & field position makes. We should have been up 24-0, because we frustrated Manly in to errors, and made our attacking opportunities count (even if the refs did their part to deny us). The second half we dropped the ball, compounded errors with penalties, and had little field position or posession, and went 0-20 instead.

There is absolutely no doubt how the lack of possession, field position and shit refereeing has crippled any attack we have, as well as stressing our suspect defence with predictable results. I also recall some neat attacking moves - the try v Manly where Milf and Croft stood on the same side (bloody good move that - should be more of it) and after some deft passing, Boyd scored Nice.

However, what I am talking about is the formation and re-formation of both attack and defence shapes a la the well oiled Roosters machine, a repertoire of set plays which just happen constantly and consistently and which destroy most other sides.

Sure, the clever kicks you refer to are great but that's only part of an attacking arsenal we just don't have, and I sure hope Seibold can coach it into the DNA of this highly talented roster, injuries notwithstanding.

 

[BroncsFan]

There is absolutely no doubt how the lack of possession, field position and shit refereeing has crippled any attack we have, as well as stressing our suspect defence with predictable results. I also recall some neat attacking moves - the try v Manly where Milf and Croft stood on the same side (bloody good move that - should be more of it) and after some deft passing, Boyd scored Nice.

However, what I am talking about is the formation and re-formation of both attack and defence shapes a la the well oiled Roosters machine, a repertoire of set plays which just happen constantly and consistently and which destroy most other sides.

Sure, the clever kicks you refer to are great but that's only part of an attacking arsenal we just don't have, and I sure hope Seibold can coach it into the DNA of this highly talented roster, injuries notwithstanding.

I think the lack of consistency in team selections hasn't helped us at all either.

We've gone from the 2018 team to the blood letting of deadwood and detractors to injuries and suspensions galore.

I think in round 13 vs the Titans Seibold probably had the team reasonably close to what he would've been happy with for the rest of 2019 ... after the clean out had occurred. The team is below and had Dearden at 7 and Turpin starting at 9, unfortunately Dearden got injured about 8mins in and Turpin was shoe horned into 7 for the rest of the game... we also bombed maybe 3 tries (Shiba was one from memory), which led to 7 tackle sets and tries at the opposite end.

SOS was then given the 7 and Turps had an absolute nightmare the next week against Parra leading to Macca coming back as starting 9... Milf was chucked into fullback to try and spark his running game vs Knights (leading to Milf doing everything) and eventually an injury to SOS vs sharks led to Turps being the 7 for the rest of the year.

I think if Dearden doesn't get injured in that game we probably go on to win, but more importantly Dearden likely keeps the 7 for an extended run. This would lead to Milf being eased on the organising side and overall stability with the 6, 7 & 9 ... we'd also have an idea if Dearden was ready to lead the team (potentially no need to get Croft... although I have no issues with Croft). I think Gillett was in and out through injury around this time, but Fifita was a ready replacement on the bench and Sua or Carrigan probably then get an extended run in the team.

To me that is a real sliding doors moment and I don't think we have a full strength team since and I would say we wouldn't have had a full strength team before it either (with Seibold always earmarking Dearden as the 7).

So basically I think we've had a full strength team that was committed to Seibold's style for about 3 games and 8mins in the last 2 seasons. EDIT: looks like we had a similar team for rd 9 vs Manly (win), 10 vs rooster (win) & warriors rd 11(win) ... so maybe I just recall this game against Titans as a turning point where things started going wrong due to injuries and the game was lost due to unfortunate errors that led to tries

1. Darius Boyd
2. Corey Oates
3. Kotoni Staggs
4. Gehamat Shibasaki
5. Jamayne Isaako
6. Anthony Milford
7. Tom Dearden
8. Matthew Lodge
9. Jake Turpin
10. Payne Haas
11. Alex Glenn
12. Matt Gillett
13. Tevita Pangai

14. Andrew McCullough
15. David Fifita
16. Thomas Flegler
17. Joe Ofahengaue

18. Patty Carrigan
19. Jaydn Su'A
20. Richard Kennar
21. Sean O'Sullivan

 

[rnabokov]

Ryan's challenge - our edge defence and wider - positioning shape,and slide

Look at this and you can see what I mean. Line shape? Where is Oates? Why is Herbie so far back? And of course why did Darius come infield to go for Walker when Milf had him covered, and with TurboT and Suli looming up on the outside? Woeful

And the Manly try earlier ... WTF?! Where is Offa? Where is Isaako? Jesus. Poor Haas, a prop tried to cover which was Offa and Isaako's job. I do not like Isaako as a FB. His defensive positioning is suspect

 

[007]

Ryan's challenge - our edge defence and wider - positioning shape,and slide

Look at this and you can see what I mean. Line shape? Where is Oates? Why is Herbie so far back? And of course why did Darius come infield to go for Walker when Milf had him covered, and with TurboT and Suli looming up on the outside? Woeful

View attachment 8160

View attachment 8161

And the Manly try earlier ... WTF?! Where is Offa? Where is Isaako? Jesus. Poor Haas, a prop tried to cover which was Offa and Isaako's job. I do not like Isaako as a FB. His defensive positioning is suspect

View attachment 8162

My breakdown:

1)Oates and Milf to then Boyd zero talk and slide.

2)Laziness + fitness + communication between anyone

3)Lack of slide and marker ran directly backwards instead of splitting, dropping one and sliding diagonally the other. Caused a knock on. This is not Isaako's fault, they play a fb in the line until play 3 with maybe a hover or ball follow from there at best.