FOOTBALL 2022 FIFA World Cup

[Wolfie]

I'm putting achievements down as the measurement of greatness, which is why I think it's Messi. No different to how many consider Brady the greatest QB, or Jordan the greatest basketball player. In football it's made more difficult due to the array of competitions and the different styles depending on the era.

If you're measuring it any other way other than maybe longevity, it gets very subjective and really becomes a debate about what you enjoy watching. Someone like Ronaldinho did things with the ball that many great players couldn't have dreamt of, while no one could hit a dead ball like Juninho. If defenders are your thing then its probably someone like Maldini, Baresi or Desailly.

Messi wouldn't make my top 20 favourite players ever but even as someone who can't stand Barcelona I accept he's the greatest when you weigh it up based on what he's achieved.

See, i think achievements are very subjective as well. I dont think basing it on trophies won or goals scored at giant, dominant football clubs is a good metric. Taking nothing away from say Ronaldo and Messi, who have probably won pretty much the same amount of trophies, you are going to win things when you play for Man United, PSG, Juventus, Barcelona and Real Madrid. Same applies to Maldini. When you play for AC Milan, you are going to win things. Even at International level, Ronaldo, Messi and Pele were all part of great sides with Portugal, Argentina and Brazil, especially that 1970 side who are widely regarded as the greatest team of all time.

For that reason, as i did say previously, its why i feel Maradona has the edge over all of them because he didnt play in a great side with top class players around him for either Napoli or Argentina in 1986. But his ability just dragged them to a level they probably had no right to be at and won Serie A titles and a World cup. That to me is a bigger achievement than winning 30+ trophies with the likes of Barcelona or Man United playing with some of the best players in the world. As i mentioned previously though, you have to put a bit of a question mark over Maradona due to his drug use.

My favourite players generally though arent the most skillful ones. Not including Wolves players, but my favourite player of all time is Roy Keane. I've been watching football for a long time and i've never seen any player dominate a game like he did against Juventus in 1999, and he did it against 3 top, top players in Deschamps, Zidane and Davids. Probably tells you a lot why i get the shits with the flair players getting all the plaudits!

 

[BroncosFever]

I have really only ever seen him play in the Socceroos game a couple of weeks back. He was pulling on collars, pushing people over, taking dives etc etc etc. Got away with all of it scot-free too which I found pretty retarded, basically anyway he could think of cheating, he did. Is this kind of stuff taken into consideration when talking GOAT or is it completely acceptable because it’s soccer? He was the worst for it by far out of anyone playing in that game. Is this normal for him? I know in our game he would be hammered from pillar to post by all and sundry and denounced as one of the greats.

He blatantly handballed in one of the games, it's a yellow card every single time.

Not this time.

 

[Wolfie]

He blatantly handballed in one of the games, it's a yellow card every single time.

Not this time.

Well, he should have been red carded against Holland. Automatic yellow for a deliberate hand ball, then booked as well. I think Argentinians getting away with hand balls and then going on to win the world cup is just one of those things!

 

[pennywisealfie]

Messi was already the greatest of all time. Before he won the World Cup, before he won the Copa America. He's done it all now. Now people who don't watch the games have no leg to stand on.

 

[BroncosFever]

Messi was already the greatest of all time. Before he won the World Cup, before he won the Copa America. He's done it all now. Now people who don't watch the games have no leg to stand on.

Righto Lionel, thanks for that.

 

[The True King]

Messi was already the greatest of all time. Before he won the World Cup, before he won the Copa America. He's done it all now. Now people who don't watch the games have no leg to stand on.

The Copa was big as it was equivalent to Ronaldo winning the Euros.
The 7th Balon D'or to pull him clear all time was the tipping point.
Then he went and won a second Golden Ball en route to winning the World Cup at 35yo.
Debate over.

Chances are we will see another Ronaldo in our lifetimes, those sort of physical attributes come along in elite sport fairly regularly. We're already seeing Mbappe and Haaland put up comparable numbers.

Where Messi differentiates himself is that he's 5'7" in a giants game that is becoming more about speed and power than ever before. The guy is a 1 in 1,000,000,000 human being who was literally born to play the sport.

It is time for the naysayers to just accept it for what it is and enjoy the last few years of his career.

 

[Wolfie]

Messi was already the greatest of all time. Before he won the World Cup, before he won the Copa America. He's done it all now. Now people who don't watch the games have no leg to stand on.

I watch all the games and i dont think he is

 

[Wolfie]

The Copa was big as it was equivalent to Ronaldo winning the Euros.
The 7th Balon D'or to pull him clear all time was the tipping point.
Then he went and won a second Golden Ball en route to winning the World Cup at 35yo.
Debate over.

Chances are we will see another Ronaldo in our lifetimes, those sort of physical attributes come along in elite sport fairly regularly. We're already seeing Mbappe and Haaland put up comparable numbers.

Where Messi differentiates himself is that he's 5'7" in a giants game that is becoming more about speed and power than ever before. The guy is a 1 in 1,000,000,000 human being who was literally born to play the sport.

It is time for the naysayers to just accept it for what it is and enjoy the last few years of his career.

Copa America isnt on a par with the Euros. Outside of Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay there isnt the same quality as in the Euros. Regardless of how some of these teams performed in the world cup, you have England, Portugal, Spain, Germany, France, Belgium, Croatia, Italy and Holland who would all be genuine chances of winning the tournament. Even the so called weaker countries like Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark, Czech Republic, Poland, Ukraine and Austria are stronger sides than Peru, Venezuela, Columbia, Bolivia, Paraguay and Ecuador. Copa America just isnt close to the tournament the Euros are.

As i said before, its arguable if the world cup is actually as competitive as the Euro's are.

 

[The True King]

Copa America isnt on a par with the Euros. Outside of Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay there isnt the same quality as in the Euros. Regardless of how some of these teams performed in the world cup, you have England, Portugal, Spain, Germany, France, Belgium, Croatia, Italy and Holland who would all be genuine chances of winning the tournament. Even the so called weaker countries like Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark, Czech Republic, Poland, Ukraine and Austria are stronger sides than Peru, Venezuela, Columbia, Bolivia, Paraguay and Ecuador. Copa America just isnt close to the tournament the Euros are.

As i said before, its arguable if the world cup is actually as competitive as the Euro's are.

Last year was Argentina's first win in the Copa since 1993. Brazil has won it once since 2007, Uruguay once since 1995.

Chile, Peru, Paraguay, Colombia and Mexico have all made the final since 2000. Not sure how you can make out its less competitive or not on par.

Belgium are ranked 2nd based on what they did at the Euros and yet couldn't even get out of their group. Could bring up Denmark too.

 

[Wolfie]

Last year was Argentina's first win in the Copa since 1993. Brazil has won it once since 2007, Uruguay once since 1995.

Chile, Peru, Paraguay, Colombia and Mexico have all made the final since 2000. Not sure how you can make out its less competitive or not on par.

Belgium are ranked 2nd based on what they did at the Euros and yet couldn't even get out of their group. Could bring up Denmark too.

Its just not on a par with the Euros no matter how you want to dress it up. Nobody in their right mind is going to put the Copa America on the same level as the Euros. Just because a few of the big boys had a poor tournament doesn't change that generally, the best sides in Europe are all more than capable of at least making the semis of the world cup if they perform ( as history pretty much shows us ). I'm not seeing anyone out side of Brazil and Argentina making a dent in the World cup from that region or any other region tbh on a regular basis. Morocco making the semis this year was brilliant to see, they would have been my team of the tournament really. Nobody would expect them to get where they did considering they werent even the best side to come from Africa.

 

[Sproj]

Last year was Argentina's first win in the Copa since 1993. Brazil has won it once since 2007, Uruguay once since 1995.

Chile, Peru, Paraguay, Colombia and Mexico have all made the final since 2000. Not sure how you can make out its less competitive or not on par.

Belgium are ranked 2nd based on what they did at the Euros and yet couldn't even get out of their group. Could bring up Denmark too.

Didnt Iceland win it or something once?

 

[Super Freak]

Mate, thank you for all your commentary throughout the tournament

You're welcome.

Now I can get a decent night's sleep. Haven't had one in the past month.

 

[Super Freak]

Didnt Iceland win it or something once?

Nah, knocked out in the Quarter Final by France.

 

[mitch222]

A world cup doesnt really make you the best of all time. Plenty of top, top players have never even come close to winning one but it doesnt mean they werent as talented as a player who has won it. Messi and Ronaldo are just the best players of their generation.

Messi lifted his country to a world cup. The pinnacle of the sport like Maradona and Pele did. It needs to be on your resume if your in the talk for best of all time.

 

[Renegade]

However you look at it, whether you want to or not, Messi's WC puts him on the Mount Rushmore of Football. People can have their aesthetic preferences but when you look at the hard data, Messi is so far in front of everyone else in just about every attacking metric that it's not even conceivable to logically argue against.

 

[Super Freak]

I wonder how many France fans are replaying this moment over and over in their head.

 

[Renegade]

I wonder how many France fans are replaying this moment over and over in their head.

Huge chance and even more magnified given the time, but Martinez had a handful of chances when he came on and fluffed them all as well. Could've been higuain 2.0

 

[Wolfie]

However you look at it, whether you want to or not, Messi's WC puts him on the Mount Rushmore of Football. People can have their aesthetic preferences but when you look at the hard data, Messi is so far in front of everyone else in just about every attacking metric that it's not even conceivable to logically argue against.

I dont think anyone is saying he shouldnt be up there, but his stats, like Ronaldo are a product of the modern game so its difficult to compare his achievements to players of years gone by when the game is totally different no to say when Maradona or Pele was playing. Modern players dont get constantly brutally assaulted like Pele did say in 1966 against Bulgaria and Portugal, or Maradona when he got his leg broken by Goikoetxea. The modern game lets players express themselves without the fear of just being kicked out of games. I think the modern game is much better to watch, but it does allow attacking players to play without fear. I still dont think i would put Messi as the GOAT, but he's probably the best player of his generation.

And as i keep saying, simply using attacking metrics to measure a players greatness is a terribly flawed system of picking the best player of all time when you can have players of equal ability in other positions that get overlooked, which is why the Ballon d'Or isnt a great way to judge the best player in the world in a particular season. I've used him a fair bit, but the year AC Milan won the Champions League and Serie A, he was the best player in the game and the leader of a defence that won the Champions league conceding only 2 goals and just 15 in Serie A, yet he was miles behind the winner of the Ballon d'Or that year. Its an award thats supposed to reward the best performing player, not the most entertaining or attacking player, and i dont think it does.