FOOTBALL 2022 FIFA World Cup

[Wolfie]

Messi lifted his country to a world cup. The pinnacle of the sport like Maradona and Pele did. It needs to be on your resume if your in the talk for best of all time.

Honestly, i dont think International football is the pinnacle of football anymore. When i was growing up it was, but I think since the Champions League has become so big, i think thats overtaken the international game.

 

[The True King]

I dont think anyone is saying he shouldnt be up there, but his stats, like Ronaldo are a product of the modern game so its difficult to compare his achievements to players of years gone by when the game is totally different no to say when Maradona or Pele was playing. Modern players dont get constantly brutally assaulted like Pele did say in 1966 against Bulgaria and Portugal, or Maradona when he got his leg broken by Goikoetxea. The modern game lets players express themselves without the fear of just being kicked out of games. I think the modern game is much better to watch, but it does allow attacking players to play without fear. I still dont think i would put Messi as the GOAT, but he's probably the best player of his generation.

And as i keep saying, simply using attacking metrics to measure a players greatness is a terribly flawed system of picking the best player of all time when you can have players of equal ability in other positions that get overlooked, which is why the Ballon d'Or isnt a great way to judge the best player in the world in a particular season. I've used him a fair bit, but the year AC Milan won the Champions League and Serie A, he was the best player in the game and the leader of a defence that won the Champions league conceding only 2 goals and just 15 in Serie A, yet he was miles behind the winner of the Ballon d'Or that year. Its an award thats supposed to reward the best performing player, not the most entertaining or attacking player, and i dont think it does.

All I took from this is that Virgil Van Dijk was robbed of the Balon D'or.

Defenders deserve to be in the conversation for the big awards. Cannavaro basically the only exception to the norm but I wouldn't be comfortable saying anyone in the time since has been a better footballer than Messi or Ronaldo.

 

[Wolfie]

All I took from this is that Virgil Van Dijk was robbed of the Balon D'or.

Defenders deserve to be in the conversation for the big awards. Cannavaro basically the only exception to the norm but I wouldn't be comfortable saying anyone in the time since has been a better footballer than Messi or Ronaldo.

I didnt even think of Van Dijk tbh, i was speaking about Maldini.


I think the GOAT debate will always been generational though based on who you grew up with, but i do think with the coverage out there now at least it gives people the opportunity to base their opinions on players they can watch week in week out, not just in a major tournament every 4 years. We just dont have the luxury to go back and watch Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Di Stefano, Puskas, Best etc. Without watching those players on a weekly basis like we can now, i dont think anyone can really make a fair comparison between Messi and Pele because our exposure to Pele is basically highlight clips. You can get on youtube right now and see a video of Pele for example doing everything every top player from the last 30 years has done way before they did. Trophies won and awards dont really tell you enough about what a footballer is all about imo.

 

[BroncosFever]

Huge chance and even more magnified given the time, but Martinez had a handful of chances when he came on and fluffed them all as well. Could've been higuain 2.0

Lautaro had a pretty ordinary World Cup, it has to be said

 

[Super Freak]

Messi was already the greatest of all time. Before he won the World Cup, before he won the Copa America. He's done it all now. Now people who don't watch the games have no leg to stand on.

Who doesn't watch the games?

 

[BroncosFever]

Who doesn't watch the games?

I reckon old mate was having a bit of a laugh as he wrote that.

I know he's a Barcelona fan himself and being a Barcelona fan, he would know Messi's last few years at Barcelona weren't that great at all. They squandered 2 significant leads in the UCL finals to get sent packing by Rome and Liverpool and also copped one of the more recent humiliating defeats when going down 8-2 to Bayern Munich (not sure if that's the exact sequence it happened, it all definitely happened though).

Since then, they've qualified for UCL but haven't qualified for the Finals, they'll compete in Europa League for the 2nd year running. Last year they lost to Eintracht Frankfurt. I know this has no relevance to Messi but it's relevant to how every Barcelona fan has suddenly turned into a life long Argentinian, it's been a while since they've had anything to cheer about. A while by their standards anyways.

Yes, it does agitate me how Barcelona fans are carrying on like they were born and bred in Argentina. We'll see how much support Argentina has next time around. I suspect Spain will have gained a few fans.

 

[Foordy]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet but French media claiming that the 3rd Argentina goal should have been disallowed (on a technicality). their reasoning is because 2 Argentinian substitutes took a step onto the field to celebrate before the ball had actually crossed the line, which according to the rules means the goal should be disallowed.

 

[pennywisealfie]

Who doesn't watch the games?

I don't know bro. It's the only way I can imagine someone not thinking Messi is the best is if you don't watch his games. It just seems like people are either a hater or go off what his stats are on FIFA or something.

Wolfie's talk about defenders and goalkeepers not being involved in the discussions has some merit since they are different roles and can't really be compared. Then he goes and says the Euros are harder to win than the World Cup. So I feel like I'm done trying to discuss this with you guys lol.

 

[The True King]

I reckon old mate was having a bit of a laugh as he wrote that.

I know he's a Barcelona fan himself and being a Barcelona fan, he would know Messi's last few years at Barcelona weren't that great at all. They squandered 2 significant leads in the UCL finals to get sent packing by Rome and Liverpool and also copped one of the more recent humiliating defeats when going down 8-2 to Bayern Munich (not sure if that's the exact sequence it happened, it all definitely happened though).

Since then, they've qualified for UCL but haven't qualified for the Finals, they'll compete in Europa League for the 2nd year running. Last year they lost to Eintracht Frankfurt. I know this has no relevance to Messi but it's relevant to how every Barcelona fan has suddenly turned into a life long Argentinian, it's been a while since they've had anything to cheer about. A while by their standards anyways.

Yes, it does agitate me how Barcelona fans are carrying on like they were born and bred in Argentina. We'll see how much support Argentina has next time around. I suspect Spain will have gained a few fans.

His individual stats in those years were still insane though. Even despite Barca's drop off he managed to pick up a Balon D'or and a couple Golden Shoes (top goal scorer in Europe) in a struggling side.

I don't think you can put any of those UCL defeats on his shoulders. It's a team game ultimately and Barcelona has been poor for a while now, both on and off the pitch.

What's funny is seeing all the Twitter handles change from Ronaldo to Mbappe over the last few days. There have been so many anti-Messi fans out there that have jumped ship since realising there's no longer a case to be made that Ronaldo is better than Messi. By whatever metric you use (aside from perhaps pure goals) Messi is clear.

I didnt even think of Van Dijk tbh, i was speaking about Maldini.


I think the GOAT debate will always been generational though based on who you grew up with, but i do think with the coverage out there now at least it gives people the opportunity to base their opinions on players they can watch week in week out, not just in a major tournament every 4 years. We just dont have the luxury to go back and watch Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Di Stefano, Puskas, Best etc. Without watching those players on a weekly basis like we can now, i dont think anyone can really make a fair comparison between Messi and Pele because our exposure to Pele is basically highlight clips. You can get on youtube right now and see a video of Pele for example doing everything every top player from the last 30 years has done way before they did. Trophies won and awards dont really tell you enough about what a footballer is all about imo.

What we do know for sure though, is that the tactical side of football has progressed, as has the sport science behind the scenes. Modern players are at peak levels in terms of physical attributes and have all the psychological tools you could possibly want to be the best. I genuinely think we'll never see another player with Messi's physical traits achieve what he has. We will likely see either Haaland or Mbappe surpass all the goal scoring records that Ronaldo has set but they won't surpass what Messi has done. The man has completed football and he's done it with pure intelligence and technical ability.

 

[BroncosFever]

By whatever metric you use (aside from perhaps pure goals) Messi is clear.

Yeah look, I am no Ronaldo fan but that's a significant metric to be overlooking.

 

[Renegade]

And as i keep saying, simply using attacking metrics to measure a players greatness is a terribly flawed system of picking the best player of all time when you can have players of equal ability in other positions that get overlooked, which is why the Ballon d'Or isnt a great way to judge the best player in the world in a particular season. I've used him a fair bit, but the year AC Milan won the Champions League and Serie A, he was the best player in the game and the leader of a defence that won the Champions league conceding only 2 goals and just 15 in Serie A, yet he was miles behind the winner of the Ballon d'Or that year. Its an award thats supposed to reward the best performing player, not the most entertaining or attacking player, and i dont think it does.

If you can find statistical data that states that Maldini was roughly 25% better than any other defender, I'll happily agree with you. Because that's what the data shows with Messi and every other forward.

I can agree with the idea of you can't really compare different eras, so I'm with you on the idea of best of their generation... but Messi is an outlier.

 

[The True King]

Yeah look, I am no Ronaldo fan but that's a significant metric to be overlooking.

Not really when one is a playmaker while the other spent half his career as a poacher

 

[Renegade]

Yeah look, I am no Ronaldo fan but that's a significant metric to be overlooking.

Not when Messi is something like 30 career goals behind Ronaldo it's not.

 

[BroncosFever]

Not really when one is a playmaker while the other spent half his career as a poacher

Look at a team like Chelsea, they'd love a poacher right now. You say it like they're not hard to find.

 

[Renegade]

Look at a team like Chelsea, they'd love a poacher right now. You say it like they're not hard to find.

As a Liverpool fan, I too would like to see another EPL club sign Ronaldo. Let the circus consume them while they play with 10 men every game.

 

[BroncosFever]

As a Liverpool fan, I too would like to see another EPL club sign Ronaldo. Let the circus consume them while they play with 10 men every game.

I think you're getting a bit tied up in my actual point, I don't care about this Ronaldo vs Messi debate, I just think if you want to overlook the "goals scored" metric, I couldn't think of a more meaningful stat to overlook.

In football the objective is to score more goals than your opposition. The team that scores the most goals, will go on to win the game.

 

[Renegade]

I think you're getting a bit tied up in my actual point, I don't care about this Ronaldo vs Messi debate, I just think if you want to overlook the "goals scored" metric, I couldn't think of a more meaningful stat to overlook.

In football the objective is to score more goals than your opposition. The team that scores the most goals, will go on to win the game.

If Messi was a significant margin behind Ronaldo, I think yes it would be very foolish to overlook the goal scored metric. But the fact that there is 30 goals or less difference between the two makes it insignificant. Nevermind the fact Messi has played something like 10k less minutes than Ronaldo and is within that 30 goal margin. While also being 100+ assists ahead of him. And playing the most through balls in the final 3rd out of anyone in the last 15 years (by a huge margin) and the most successful takeons/dribbles in the last 15 years (by a huge margin)

It really is stupid how far in front Messi is.

 

[Santa]

This debate is dumb. Everyone knows that Ronaldo (R9) and Ronaldinho are the real GOATS.