FOOTBALL 2022 FIFA World Cup

[Renegade]

This debate is dumb. Everyone knows that Ronaldo (R9) and Ronaldinho are the real GOATS.

R9 could've been the GOAT for sure if his knees didn't explode. Ronaldinho was washed by 30. Magnificent player though.

 

[BroncosFever]

This debate is dumb. Everyone knows that Ronaldo (R9) and Ronaldinho are the real GOATS.

It always ends up being Messi vs Ronaldo, somehow

 

[Wolfie]

If you can find statistical data that states that Maldini was roughly 25% better than any other defender, I'll happily agree with you. Because that's what the data shows with Messi and every other forward.

I can agree with the idea of you can't really compare different eras, so I'm with you on the idea of best of their generation... but Messi is an outlier.

Its much harder though to quantify what a defender does compared to an attacker. Like i posted, Maldini was part of a defence that won the champions league conceding only 2 goals. Thats just insane, but how do you quantify that as an individual. You can measure an assist or a goal as an individual, but especially from years gone by when the metrics weren't tracked like they are now, how do you measure clearances, tackles, blocks etc. Its not a fair comparison imo, all you can go on is a players ability to perform in his position and his influence on a team. I dont really go to hard into the stats, trophies and award because there are too many variables. The Ballon d`Or for example with the way its voted on these days is basically Eurovision for football.

 

[Wolfie]

His individual stats in those years were still insane though. Even despite Barca's drop off he managed to pick up a Balon D'or and a couple Golden Shoes (top goal scorer in Europe) in a struggling side.

I don't think you can put any of those UCL defeats on his shoulders. It's a team game ultimately and Barcelona has been poor for a while now, both on and off the pitch.

What's funny is seeing all the Twitter handles change from Ronaldo to Mbappe over the last few days. There have been so many anti-Messi fans out there that have jumped ship since realising there's no longer a case to be made that Ronaldo is better than Messi. By whatever metric you use (aside from perhaps pure goals) Messi is clear.



What we do know for sure though, is that the tactical side of football has progressed, as has the sport science behind the scenes. Modern players are at peak levels in terms of physical attributes and have all the psychological tools you could possibly want to be the best. I genuinely think we'll never see another player with Messi's physical traits achieve what he has. We will likely see either Haaland or Mbappe surpass all the goal scoring records that Ronaldo has set but they won't surpass what Messi has done. The man has completed football and he's done it with pure intelligence and technical ability.

There will be a better player than Messi because football will evolve. It always does. People probably said it about Pele. I know they said it about Maradona. The gap between the best players imo is still minimal.

Myself, its something i've never really got into this whole GOAT debate, especially with Ronaldo and Messi. I just see good footballers who have their own strengths and weaknesses. Maybe i look at things a little differently, i just dont base things of statistics, never have and never will because as i even say in other sports, the variables in them are too great.

 

[The True King]

There will be a better player than Messi because football will evolve. It always does. People probably said it about Pele. I know they said it about Maradona. The gap between the best players imo is still minimal.

Myself, its something i've never really got into this whole GOAT debate, especially with Ronaldo and Messi. I just see good footballers who have their own strengths and weaknesses. Maybe i look at things a little differently, i just dont base things of statistics, never have and never will because as i even say in other sports, the variables in them are too great.

You really think someone in our life times will win more than 7 Balon D'ors, a World Cup, a Copa, two Golden Boots, 4 UCLs etc?

Maybe I will be proven wrong but I think being the first person ever to do what he has is a pretty good indication as to how rare it is.

 

[The True King]

Look at a team like Chelsea, they'd love a poacher right now. You say it like they're not hard to find.

Lewandowski, Suarez, Cavani, Haaland, Aguero, Kane, Tevez, Van Persie, Drogba, Torres, Zlatan, Rooney....

That's just off the top of my head. You could go back further than 10-15 years and name guys like Owen, Shearer, Fowler, Wright, Saviola, Vieri, Del Piero, Trezeguet, Henry, Eto'o etc.

All these guys have phenomenal goal scoring records and could be called poachers... yet none of them put as way as many goals as frequently as Messi.

If you believe that Cristiano Ronaldo could have dropped into the space, seen and then played the pass that Messi did against Holland then I'm not sure what Ronaldo you have been watching for the last 15 years. The ability to read the game like that and then execute it in a clutch moment is the difference. Ronaldo will have his highlight reels but it will include very few moments where he is cutting defences open with passes or dribbling through entire teams.

 

[Renegade]

I think eventually someone will come along that will at the very least, pose the question. Look at Jordan/LeBron.

 

[Wolfie]

You really think someone in our life times will win more than 7 Balon D'ors, a World Cup, a Copa, two Golden Boots, 4 UCLs etc?

Maybe I will be proven wrong but I think being the first person ever to do what he has is a pretty good indication as to how rare it is.

Yep, because i dont get hung up on stats, i judge players on their ability and consistency or performance or i'd be throwing in somebody like Dani Alaves who iirc is the most decorated footballer in history. Like i said, the Ballon dÒr is all politically voted these days ( and probably still was back when it was the European football of the year ) so i would discount that. You might not and thats fine, but i still think its like Eurovision.

 

[The True King]

Yep, because i dont get hung up on stats, i judge players on their ability and consistency or performance or i'd be throwing in somebody like Dani Alaves who iirc is the most decorated footballer in history. Like i said, the Ballon dÒr is all politically voted these days ( and probably still was back when it was the European football of the year ) so i would discount that. You might not and thats fine, but i still think its like Eurovision.

If you cant see Messi's ability with your eyes then that's an issue haha.

The accolades are just the icing on top. Just watch the guy and you can see he is head and shoulders above every other player on the planet, and has been for a long time.

 

[The True King]

I think eventually someone will come along that will at the very least, pose the question. Look at Jordan/LeBron.

It is likely to be a conversation we are having about Mbappe in the next 10 years.

The guy is 23yo and basically already France's top goal scorer ever. Who knows how many more records he is going to break over the next few years.

The question is will he ever have a comparable trophy cabinet that he can be put alongside Messi or will it just be a subjective discussion based on how he plays the game?

 

[Wolfie]

I think eventually someone will come along that will at the very least, pose the question. Look at Jordan/LeBron.

Yep, it always happens. I dont know enough about Basketball to say what kind of side Jordan or LeBron played in and what impact they had, but in football i know if you had Messi, or Pele or Ronaldo playing for Crystal Palace or Vallecano for example, they dont have the league titles, Champions league success and goal ratios they had at clubs like Barca, Real, PSG or Juventus. Thats probably why i edge Maradona out over everyone i have seen because he turned average sides into great ones.

 

[Sproj]

Mbappe has already played in two World Cup finals, won one and scored a hat trick in the other final, he’s fast tracking to all time great status and still has a decade of his best years in front of him.

 

[Wolfie]

If you cant see Messi's ability with your eyes then that's an issue haha.

The accolades are just the icing on top. Just watch the guy and you can see he is head and shoulders above every other player on the planet, and has been for a long time.

I can see his ability, i think you are making stuff up i havent said. Show me when i have said i dont think he is a talented player. Thats just nonsense on your part saying that just because i'm not swayed by titles and stats and a flawed awards sytem.

He might be the greatest player you have ever seen, I dont know how old you are and how many players you have watched on a regular basis over the years to make that comparison, but i've seen others equally as good as Messi, they just havent played in sides as good as the Barcelona side he had his success with.

 

[BroncosFever]

Mbappe has already played in two World Cup finals, won one and scored a hat trick in the other final, he’s fast tracking to all time great status and still has a decade of his best years in front of him.

Nah, he's just a poacher.

 

[The True King]

I can see his ability, i think you are making stuff up i havent said. Show me when i have said i dont think he is a talented player. Thats just nonsense on your part saying that just because i'm not swayed by titles and stats and a flawed awards sytem.

He might be the greatest player you have ever seen, I dont know how old you are and how many players you have watched on a regular basis over the years to make that comparison, but i've seen others equally as good as Messi, they just havent played in sides as good as the Barcelona side he had his success with.

This whole point is why it's great he carried Argentina to the World Cup.

For too long people have criticised Messi's achievements at Barca because of the team he had. Clutching at straws now that he's broken that hoodoo and won a major trophy with another team. Not just once, but twice.

Wonder what you'll roll out if he wins the UCL with Paris. I'm guessing the old "oh but the team around him is so good" excuse.

Your point above re: titles and stats are basically the only thing we have to judge a players greatness. You can prefer to watch whoever you want (he wouldn't be in my top 20 favourite players either) but the numbers don't lie, Messi is unequivocally the greatest footballer to have lived.

 

[Wolfie]

This whole point is why it's great he carried Argentina to the World Cup.

For too long people have criticised Messi's achievements at Barca because of the team he had. Clutching at straws now that he's broken that hoodoo and won a major trophy with another team. Not just once, but twice.

Wonder what you'll roll out if he wins the UCL with Paris. I'm guessing the old "oh but the team around him is so good" excuse.

Your point above re: titles and stats are basically the only thing we have to judge a players greatness. You can prefer to watch whoever you want (he wouldn't be in my top 20 favourite players either) but the numbers don't lie, Messi is unequivocally the greatest footballer to have lived.

Argentina were a pretty good side. Its not like he was playing with one of the weaker sides in the tournament. Its not like he carried them on his back like Maradona did in 1986. They had plenty of quality players.

I'm certainly not criticising his achievements with Barcelona, he was a vital player in a very good side, but you cant deny he's only done it at dominant sides. Like it or not, thats a fact. He was a part of one of the best club sides i think i have ever seen. Then he moved to PSG, another side with huge resources who have quality all over the park. Again, using Maradona, its not like he is testing his ability at a lower level side like when he went to Napoli and was the driving force behind them climing up the league and winning the title. Being fair to Messi and Ronaldo in that respect, i dont think you are getting the best players in the world dropping down to a side in any top league who just avoided relegation these days and then winning titles with them.

Stats and titles dont prove you are a great player unless your team is clearly a one man team. Thats obviously not the case with teams with players like Xavi, Puyol, Ineista, Pique, Fabregas, Villa, Alaves, Sanchez etc. You judge a player on ability and influence and having watched them regularly. Also, if you are using stats how do you compare him to say Ferenc Puskas from the 1950's, or even Pele for that matter when the data just wasnt collected like it is in the modern game. Pele depending on what information you believe scored between about 775 goals to over 1250. We dont have reliable stats to give a fair comparison, hence why i say you can probably only call a player the best of his generation.

Just because in your opinion ( and you are clearly a Messi fanboy ) he is the GOAT, it doesnt mean he is. Its all subjective. If you want to say statistically he is the best because he has been a part of sides that win trophies, thats what you should say. I'd have him in my top 5 of who i have seen, but in reality i think who i pick today would be different next week.

 

[The True King]

Argentina were a pretty good side. Its not like he was playing with one of the weaker sides in the tournament. Its not like he carried them on his back like Maradona did in 1986. They had plenty of quality players.

I'm certainly not criticising his achievements with Barcelona, he was a vital player in a very good side, but you cant deny he's only done it at dominant sides. Like it or not, thats a fact. He was a part of one of the best club sides i think i have ever seen. Then he moved to PSG, another side with huge resources who have quality all over the park. Again, using Maradona, its not like he is testing his ability at a lower level side like when he went to Napoli and was the driving force behind them climing up the league and winning the title. Being fair to Messi and Ronaldo in that respect, i dont think you are getting the best players in the world dropping down to a side in any top league who just avoided relegation these days and then winning titles with them.

Stats and titles dont prove you are a great player unless your team is clearly a one man team. Thats obviously not the case with teams with players like Xavi, Puyol, Ineista, Pique, Fabregas, Villa, Alaves, Sanchez etc. You judge a player on ability and influence and having watched them regularly. Also, if you are using stats how do you compare him to say Ferenc Puskas from the 1950's, or even Pele for that matter when the data just wasnt collected like it is in the modern game. Pele depending on what information you believe scored between about 775 goals to over 1250. We dont have reliable stats to give a fair comparison, hence why i say you can probably only call a player the best of his generation.

Just because in your opinion ( and you are clearly a Messi fanboy ) he is the GOAT, it doesnt mean he is. Its all subjective. If you want to say statistically he is the best because he has been a part of sides that win trophies, thats what you should say. I'd have him in my top 5 of who i have seen, but in reality i think who i pick today would be different next week.

He was literally their best player in every game, including the final. Not only was he the best player in this World Cup but he also did it in 2014, if you remember his performances then. You only have to watch Argentina for 20min to see how crucial he is to everything they do. Mascherano was the only guy in those Barca sides that was in either of those Argentina teams

I didn't watch the 1986 tournament but I am almost certain Maradona's Argentina weren't one of the weaker sides either.

I am also not a fanboy. Stated already I can't stand Barcelona and for the most part I actually preferred Ronaldo as a player. I watched Messi score live against my team in a UCL knock out game, maybe that does make me bias having seen his greatness in the flesh. You can name all the players you want that he played alongside as contributing to his success but nearly all of them have said he's the best player they have ever played with and/or seen. That alone should mean as much as any of the stats.

 

[Wolfie]

He was literally their best player in every game, including the final. Not only was he the best player in this World Cup but he also did it in 2014, if you remember his performances then. You only have to watch Argentina for 20min to see how crucial he is to everything they do. Mascherano was the only guy in those Barca sides that was in either of those Argentina teams

I didn't watch the 1986 tournament but I am almost certain Maradona's Argentina weren't one of the weaker sides either.

I am also not a fanboy. Stated already I can't stand Barcelona and for the most part I actually preferred Ronaldo as a player. I watched Messi score live against my team in a UCL knock out game, maybe that does make me bias having seen his greatness in the flesh. You can name all the players you want that he played alongside as contributing to his success but nearly all of them have said he's the best player they have ever played with and/or seen. That alone should mean as much as any of the stats.

I did watch it in 86, and Argentina were average at best aside from Maradona. They weren't on anyone's radar to win the tournament. I never said they were one of the weaker sides either, they were just an average side. They were nowhere near the Argentina sides of the last decade.

Using his team mates to justify why he is the best isnt that great of an argument you could have used. They are obviously going to say he is best player they have played with because he probably is. They are hardly going to say he isnt. That probably means even less that the stats. The thing we will never know is could he go to a lower side in Spain and turn them into champions. I doubt any modern player would have the balls to go and test himself like Maradona did. I'm actually struggling to think of any player since i have been watching football who has done it tbf.