Coen Hess

Big Pete

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I'd rather a player like Hess than Bukuya. Hess is a stronger runner of the football who isn't afraid to run lines and has shown he isn't over-awed by the big stage. When Bukuya was asked to step up without others setting the platform for him, he struggled with it big time. His big advantage is his foot-work before the line which really isn't needed for the Maroons when they already have Papalii, Gillett & Guerra to pick from.

I could buy into other candidates, but Jayson's time is better served doing what he does best for the Sharks. I wouldn't be against keeping an eye on another Queensland backrow at Cronulla though...he's still getting used to the transition from NSW Cup and playing in the backs, but Capewell is an exciting prospect.
 

Unbreakable

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Hess has scored the bulk of his tries this year against the teams running 11th, 12th and 15th ! He averages this season, 93 metres a game. Just for comparison sakes, Jason Bakuya averages 101 metres a game running for 1009 metres this season. Hess has run for 1025 metres, virtually the same but here's the big difference ........Hess has been on the field for almost FOUR HOURS LONGER !!!!!!

Hess has been on the field for 716 minutes compared to Bakuya's 487 minutes yet he has run for the same amount of metres with more per game.
Let's be fair.

A) You're comparing an edge players running metres to a middle players running metres, apples and oranges, he's inherently going to have fewer opportunities to run because of the position he plays, not to mention the inflation that comes with kick-off & drop-out returns, the fact that he's in the ballpark for metres per run is a plus for Hess, not a negative.

B) Hess has 8 tries, 6 line-breaks, 36 tackle breaks.. Bukuya has 1 try, 1 line-break, 18 tackle breaks.

C) Hess misses 5.6% of his tackles, Bukuya misses 7.5% of his tackles.

D) Hess is 20 years old, Bukuya is 28 years old.

You could compare Gillett's minutes / running metres to any middle forward in the NRL and he'd look like a worse player.
 

Sproj

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I'm not sure if I read Huge Huge's point right but I think it is more that Bukuya's stats are favourable compared to Hess's yet no one is arguing for Bukuya to come in.

Hess will get his shot and as much as I am vocally for giving young guys a shot, he is one that should be held back 12 months in my opinion.
 

Sproj

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I feel like I'm a bit of a contradiction in that I don't want Hess in yet but want Holmes ahead of Slater. Haha
 

mitch222

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Hess is too young. Needs a full year in first grade to start with, then we can think about moving him into the side. Its a bit different from coming off the bench in the NRL then to coming off the bench in the most elite game of rugby league that is played. SOO intensity is the highest level. I know Test matches are supposed to be, but they aren't. The speed in origin is elite. He is coming up against the best of the best. He isn't going to get his barge over tries from close range against the NSW defence so easy.
 

Huge

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Let's be fair.

A) You're comparing an edge players running metres to a middle players running metres, apples and oranges, he's inherently going to have fewer opportunities to run because of the position he plays, not to mention the inflation that comes with kick-off & drop-out returns, the fact that he's in the ballpark for metres per run is a plus for Hess, not a negative.

B) Hess has 8 tries, 6 line-breaks, 36 tackle breaks.. Bukuya has 1 try, 1 line-break, 18 tackle breaks.

C) Hess misses 5.6% of his tackles, Bukuya misses 7.5% of his tackles.

D) Hess is 20 years old, Bukuya is 28 years old.

You could compare Gillett's minutes / running metres to any middle forward in the NRL and he'd look like a worse player.
Err, Bukuya has played one less game, only 60 % of the time Hess has been on the field yet has made just as many metres. They both play second row so its apples and apples. Making half the line breaks seems comparable too given he's on the field half the time !!!! Finally Hess's tries have been against lightweight opposition. There's just nothing about Hess that makes him memorable. Compared to a journeyman he still looks only comparable at best. It's just excuse making and rationalization unless Bakuya's a lot better than you realized.
 

Sproj

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There's just nothing about Hess that makes him memorable
I'm on your side in this debate but this sentence isn't true in my opinion. He was great in that final against us, is playing extremely well for his age and as a result is turning heads. He has a lot of similar attributes to Dave Taylor...let's just hope maturity level, career trajectory and wastefulness of talent are not among them.
 

Unbreakable

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Err, Bukuya has played one less game, only 60 % of the time Hess has been on the field yet has made just as many metres. They both play second row so its apples and apples. Making half the line breaks seems comparable too given he's on the field half the time !!!! Finally Hess's tries have been against lightweight opposition. There's just nothing about Hess that makes him memorable. Compared to a journeyman he still looks only comparable at best. It's just excuse making and rationalization unless Bakuya's a lot better than you realized.
Spoken like someone who's never watched him play.

Bukuya does not play second row, he comes off the bench and plays in the middle of the field. Also, 1 is not half of 6, unless you were referring to Tackle Breaks, which aren't relative to minutes played, but runs made, you said yourself that Hess & Bukuya have made a similar numbers of runs, which means they've both had a similar amount of opportunities to break tackles, and Hess has broken twice as many.

I don't agree with your point at all.
 

JayPee

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Err, Bukuya has played one less game, only 60 % of the time Hess has been on the field yet has made just as many metres. They both play second row so its apples and apples. Making half the line breaks seems comparable too given he's on the field half the time !!!! Finally Hess's tries have been against lightweight opposition. There's just nothing about Hess that makes him memorable. Compared to a journeyman he still looks only comparable at best. It's just excuse making and rationalization unless Bakuya's a lot better than you realized.
Dear oh dear
 

Battler

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I'm assuming Wallace is already locked in here.

We're better off picking Bolton, Sims, or Kaufusi over Bukuya, but one of them should come in for Lillyman anyway. Hess would give QLD an edge over NSW off the bench: NSW don't have a 110kg+ hard running second rower storming onto JT/ Cronk passes in the 30th minute. Graham is under 100kg and not the physical presence Coen is - the rest of the NSW interchange are, bar Klemmer, middle of the field toilers who didn't really do that much. Fifita carried the NSW pack, and we need to figure out a way to limit his impact. If we do so I'm confident we will win, he was responsible for about 18 points.

Maloney missed a truckload of tackles in game 1 and is probably the worst defender in the NRL, let's exploit him.
 

Huge

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Spoken like someone who's never watched him play.

Bukuya does not play second row, he comes off the bench and plays in the middle of the field. Also, 1 is not half of 6, unless you were referring to Tackle Breaks, which aren't relative to minutes played, but runs made, you said yourself that Hess & Bukuya have made a similar numbers of runs, which means they've both had a similar amount of opportunities to break tackles, and Hess has broken twice as many.

I don't agree with your point at all.
Bukuya doesn't play second row ? Huh ? Half the tackle breaks, I made a mistake there thinking tackle breaks but wrote line breaks. Bukuya's made more tackles with one less game, run for as many metres but only played a little over half the time of Hess and averages more metres per game by around 10%.

Hess may be a future superstar but going on 2017 he hasn't done so much as to make him outstanding. Another thing Bukuya has in his favour is he has proven himself in a grand final.

I'm not saying pick Bukuya...I'm saying Hess is a work in progress, a real possibility and an Origin type but I would want to see much more sustained excellence
 

Huge

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For the record I think F Kafusi would be worth consideration but Sims and Wallace are already in my dream team.
 

Unbreakable

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Bukuya doesn't play second row ? Huh ? Half the tackle breaks, I made a mistake there thinking tackle breaks but wrote line breaks. Bukuya's made more tackles with one less game, run for as many metres but only played a little over half the time of Hess and averages more metres per game by around 10%.
You're literally just repeating yourself now, I just explained why the stats are the way they are. Bukuya plays in the middle when he subs on, therefore he is required to make more hit ups in a short period of time. Hess plays on the right edge when he comes on, therefore will often play more minutes but be required to do marginally less work.

This isn't ground breaking stuff here Huge, your boy Bukuya is averaging more hit ups and running metres than Matt Gillett, an Australian backrower who plays 80 minutes every week..
 

Huge

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You're literally just repeating yourself now, I just explained why the stats are the way they are. Bukuya plays in the middle when he subs on, therefore he is required to make more hit ups in a short period of time. Hess plays on the right edge when he comes on, therefore will often play more minutes but be required to do marginally less work.

This isn't ground breaking stuff here Huge, your boy Bukuya is averaging more hit ups and running metres than Matt Gillett, an Australian backrower who plays 80 minutes every week..
By that reasoning, shouldn't Hess have many more metres ? Like he's out on the edge and Bakuya is in the middle presumably where the other forwards are...bit puzzled ! He does less work too ? Oh well, someone will explain it to me I suppose.
 

Big Pete

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Edge backrows are a specialist position that are more concerned about protecting their halves and running lines off of them. For instance, Luke Lewis only averages 8 runs a game for the Sharks, but that doesn't make him any less effective. On the other hand, Bukuya's role in the team is to gain metres through the middle with his foot-work. That generally works well when he's making metres off the back of big runs from his Cronulla team-mates. In Origin, it's a different story and what the team requires is different.

Which isn't necessarily to say Hess is the right option either, but just how comparing backrows can be apples and oranges.

One thing I will say is that I don't buy into this too old or too young rhetoric. If they're the best candidate pick them, it's as simple as that. Obviously it isn't the real reason, so point out the deficiencies you think they have. Whether you feel they have too many defensive flaws or mistakes in their game, or there's simply better candidates. Ageism is a massive cop out, it's like criticizing a player because they're 'overrated'.
 

1910

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Edge backrows are a specialist position that are more concerned about protecting their halves and running lines off of them. For instance, Luke Lewis only averages 8 runs a game for the Sharks, but that doesn't make him any less effective. On the other hand, Bukuya's role in the team is to gain metres through the middle with his foot-work. That generally works well when he's making metres off the back of big runs from his Cronulla team-mates. In Origin, it's a different story and what the team requires is different.

Which isn't necessarily to say Hess is the right option either, but just how comparing backrows can be apples and oranges.

One thing I will say is that I don't buy into this too old or too young rhetoric. If they're the best candidate pick them, it's as simple as that. Obviously it isn't the real reason, so point out the deficiencies you think they have. Whether you feel they have too many defensive flaws or mistakes in their game, or there's simply better candidates. Ageism is a massive cop out, it's like criticizing a player because they're 'overrated'.
Being picked when they were ruined Meyers and Webb. Short term it was great but I think long term it was no good for them. Carlaw to a less extent too.
 

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