[Confirmed] Russell Packer -->Not the Broncos

[Cult]

re: [Confirmed] Russell Packer --> Panthers

we don't need another prop that only averages 80m a game (in his best year.)

and if agression is all we want from him, surely we can do better than Packer

Yeah because that's totally what I was getting at. I don't want to sign Packer but Queenslanders response and reasoning was just ridiculous, agenda filled bullshit.

 

[Art Vandelay]

re: [Confirmed] Russell Packer --> Panthers

And the premeditation? or do we just ignore that?

It would have been manslaughter

Premeditation is not an element of the crime of murder. In QLD you only need to be committing and act intended to cause death or grievous bodily harm. In NSW the definition extends to acts done with reckless indifference to human life. I think Packer's actions would definitely qualify for attempted murder in NSW, though in QLD it would be a bit trickier. But ultimately the prosecutor has to weigh up not only what he can charge, but also what Packer was willing to plead guilty to, the likelihood of conviction for the different potential charges if it went to trial and what the public is willing to accept.

Edit: Severely ninja'd

 

[broncos4life]

re: [Confirmed] Russell Packer --> Panthers

Premeditation is not an element of the crime of murder. In QLD you only need to be committing and act intended to cause death or grievous bodily harm. In NSW the definition extends to acts done with reckless indifference to human life. I think Packer's actions would definitely qualify for attempted murder in NSW, though in QLD it would be a bit trickier. But ultimately the prosecutor has to weigh up not only what he can charge, but also what Packer was willing to plead guilty to, the likelihood of conviction for the different potential charges if it went to trial and what the public is willing to accept.

Edit: Severely ninja'd

I've already conceded I made a mistake.

Still begs the question if the people with all the facts and understanding of the law don't feel they could have got a conviction for attempted murder why some others without complete knowledge of the facts deem it acceptable to claim he was trying to murder someone

 

[Art Vandelay]

re: [Confirmed] Russell Packer --> Panthers

I've already conceded I made a mistake.

Still begs the question if the people with all the facts and understanding of the law don't feel they could have got a conviction for attempted murder why some others without complete knowledge of the facts deem it acceptable to claim he was trying to murder someone

There's a big difference between somebody thinking "I'm going to kill this guy" and attempted murder as a legal concept. What Packer did probably didn't satisfy the former (impossible to prove) but probably did satisfy the latter. There's a shit-tonne of variables in a case like this, and trials are expensive and slow. Prosecutors take what they can get because if they over-reach they cost the taxpayers millions of dollars and criminals can go free. In any case I don't really care if I'm judging Packer too harshly because he stomped on a guy's head and I didn't. I'll say what I want.

P.S. My post seems a lot more combative towards you than I intend b4l. I have nothing against you or your opinion, I just don't want Packer at the Broncos.

 

[Porthoz]

re: [Confirmed] Russell Packer --> Panthers

No it's not what I said or what I am saying.

Yes it does make me a hypocrite and I never said I wasn;t one, in fact many times in posts relating to numerous threads I have admitted openly that I am a hypocrite. I have an opinion on rehabilitation but that all changes if you hurt someone close to me, thats just the way I am.

Well to me if it was attempted murder it would be classed as such, but I'm not going to argue with you, if you want to call it murder than that's fine.

How is Lui's case not comparable? because he bashed his pregnant girlfriend? So if this bloke was pregnant it would be comparable?

Why do you have to make everything so personal? It's like I have personally offended you because I feel like when I bloke has spent year in jail he deserves the chance to show if he has turned his life around.

So it's not what you're saying, but yes it is...? :confused:

I guess I made it personal by asking how you would feel it the crime was done to someone close to you, because yes, I absolutely find it deplorable that people will look at a fucking criminal's rights above those of their victim, just because the victim is no one they know. The idea was to make you reflect on this, not actually have a go at you... until you actually admitted to doing exactly that.
I shouldn't argue your opinions because we're mates? I don't think so! In fact probably more so because we are, I feel I can have these debates and differences of opinion with you. Doesn't mean I won't buy you a beer at the next game... and then throw you over the balustrade with it. :thefinger:

Back to the issue and at the risk of repeating myself again...
I absolutely support rehabilitation for criminals, but not by handing them a high profile, high reward job (which is what I meant by elite) like playing for a NRL club. That is a privilege that shouldn't be afforded to violent criminals!
A menial anonymous job, playing park or regional footy should be good enough. Once he proves he has indeed changed his ways and as long as his victim doesn't suffer from it, he might earn a reprieve down the track.

Regarding the classification of this crime, I said it earlier, but I will also repeat it:
In these type of offenses, the prosecutor will generally go with a charge that carries a good probability of success, or even a plea (as was the case), not necessarily what it should be.
Note that the judge's sentence and the fact he wasn't afforded bail while his case was on appeal, shows exactly what they thought of this.

You don't seem to comprehend that by stomping on someone's head, you're essentially trying to kill a person!
Yet you're comparing that with an act, which as despicable and inexcusable as it is, is nowhere near the same severity.

 

[Splinter]

re: [Confirmed] Russell Packer --> Panthers

So it's not what you're saying, but yes it is...? :confused:

I guess I made it personal by asking how you would feel it the crime was done to someone close to you, because yes, I absolutely find it deplorable that people will look at a fucking criminal's rights above those of their victim, just because the victim is no one they know. The idea was to make you reflect on this, not actually have a go at you... until you actually admitted to doing exactly that.
I shouldn't argue your opinions because we're mates? I don't think so! In fact probably more so because we are, I feel I can have these debates and differences of opinion with you. Doesn't mean I won't buy you a beer at the next game... and then throw you over the balustrade with it. :thefinger:

Back to the issue and at the risk of repeating myself again...
I absolutely support rehabilitation for criminals, but not by handing them a high profile, high reward job (which is what I meant by elite) like playing for a NRL club. That is a privilege that shouldn't be afforded to violent criminals!
A menial anonymous job, playing park or regional footy should be good enough. Once he proves he has indeed changed his ways and as long as his victim doesn't suffer from it, he might earn a reprieve down the track.

Regarding the classification of this crime, I said it earlier, but I will also repeat it:
In these type of offenses, the prosecutor will generally go with a charge that carries a good probability of success, or even a plea (as was the case), not necessarily what it should be.
Note that the judge's sentence and the fact he wasn't afforded bail while his case was on appeal, shows exactly what they thought of this.

You don't seem to comprehend that by stomping on someone's head, you're essentially trying to kill a person!
Yet you're comparing that with an act, which as despicable and inexcusable as it is, is nowhere near the same severity.

He was trying to hurt him which may have caused death no different to beating a woman who you know is weaker than yourself and you are almost a sure thing to win the fight. You are trying to hurt her which can also cause death.
Many women are killed in domestic violence so i would compare both these situations at least in the same light and my own personal opinion i would regard the beating of a woman worse even if Packer did kill the guy.
I realise my opinion would probably conflict with the norm in society but sorry i have just given it.

 

[gordjw]

re: [Confirmed] Russell Packer --> Panthers

Edit: Looks like you knew this already. Sorry!

Port, just on the murder/manslaughter thing. The quote you've got is to downgrade something from murder to manslaughter.

E.g. the guy raped your daughter, and when she comes home you take a gun and go blow his brains out. A jury could be persuaded that a normal person would be expected to act that way, and downgrade you to manslaughter charges. Even though you intended to kill him.

You can't use it to upgrade from manslaughter to murder, because murder requires "mens rea", which is basically "intent" to commit the crime.

The police have to pick one or the other when charging you, (it can be changed before trial), as you can't be tried twice for the same incident, and it's easy to convince the jury that intent did not exist.
E.g. My client was so drunk that he couldn't see three feet in front of him, he has never met the victim before, and he would never choose to stomp on someone's head if he was sober. Etc, etc.

TL;DR - murder is hard to prove, because it's easy(ish) to downgrade

 

[gordjw]

re: [Confirmed] Russell Packer --> Panthers

P.S. **** Russell Packer, and **** his donkey.

I won't tear up my membership over it, but I don't want him at the club.

 

[Renegade]

re: [Confirmed] Russell Packer --> Panthers

I wouldn't sign him because I don't think he's that good of a player, but if he was a gun player, had done his time and the NRL were willing to register his contract, why not?

I couldn't give a shit about pissing on the turf, some of you people are downright weird when it comes to the sentimentality of grass ... that's all it is.

As far as what he's done, yeah his actions are pretty reprehensible, but that's why he went to prison. He has obviously satisfied the conditions for parole and if the justice system is happy to have him re-enter society, I don't believe he should be marginalized for something that happened in the past, when experts in their respective field have deemed him a low risk of re-offending again.

But seriously, lol @ the people who would tear up their membership and have a tantrum vowing never to support the club again. Those people clearly place too much stock in a sporting organization, whose main goal (apart from community and all that PR nonsense) is being successful on the field, being the bastion of moral virtue. I totally agree with Leigh Matthews who said he would have a team of axe murderers if they were good players and effective on the field, because that's all that ultimately matters to a club.

 

[Porthoz]

re: [Confirmed] Russell Packer --> Panthers

He was trying to hurt him which may have caused death no different to beating a woman who you know is weaker than yourself and you are almost a sure thing to win the fight. You are trying to hurt her which can also cause death.
Many women are killed in domestic violence so i would compare both these situations at least in the same light and my own personal opinion i would regard the beating of a woman worse even if Packer did kill the guy.
I realise my opinion would probably conflict with the norm in society but sorry i have just given it.

Obviously I disagree.

It's the intent, degree and intensity of a beating that makes the difference, not whom the victim is.

The reason behind the violent act is also extremely important to me, as in Packer's case fuelled by a blind alcohol rage at someone accusing him of pinching a couple of ciggarettes, as opposed to a father beating a guy within an inch of his life because he found out he was his daughter or wife's rapist...

 

[broncos4life]

re: [Confirmed] Russell Packer --> Panthers

He was trying to hurt him which may have caused death no different to beating a woman who you know is weaker than yourself and you are almost a sure thing to win the fight. You are trying to hurt her which can also cause death.
Many women are killed in domestic violence so i would compare both these situations at least in the same light and my own personal opinion i would regard the beating of a woman worse even if Packer did kill the guy.
I realise my opinion would probably conflict with the norm in society but sorry i have just given it.

Said perfectly. This is exactly my thoughts said much better than I ever could

 

[lynx000]

re: [Confirmed] Russell Packer --> Panthers

I wouldn't sign him because I don't think he's that good of a player, but if he was a gun player, had done his time and the NRL were willing to register his contract, why not?

I couldn't give a **** about ****ing on the turf, some of you people are downright weird when it comes to the sentimentality of grass ... that's all it is.

As far as what he's done, yeah his actions are pretty reprehensible, but that's why he went to prison. He has obviously satisfied the conditions for parole and if the justice system is happy to have him re-enter society, I don't believe he should be marginalized for something that happened in the past, when experts in their respective field have deemed him a low risk of re-offending again.

But seriously, lol @ the people who would tear up their membership and have a tantrum vowing never to support the club again. Those people clearly place too much stock in a sporting organization, whose main goal (apart from community and all that PR nonsense) is being successful on the field, being the bastion of moral virtue. I totally agree with Leigh Matthews who said he would have a team of axe murderers if they were good players and effective on the field, because that's all that ultimately matters to a club.

He may have paid his debt to society in respect of the assault incident, imo he has not repaid his debt to the RL community and the NRL at all. His actions created a lot of negative press for the game and arguable brought the game into disrepute, may have put off some parents from allowing their children to play the game.

No way does he deserve a free entry straight back at NRL level, he has to serve a penance for a while like Carney did.

 

[Renegade]

re: [Confirmed] Russell Packer --> Panthers

That's upto the NRL to decide, which I touched on re: registering his contract.

 

[broncos4life]

re: [Confirmed] Russell Packer --> Panthers

He may have paid his debt to society in respect of the assault incident, imo he has not repaid his debt to the RL community and the NRL at all. His actions created a lot of negative press for the game and arguable brought the game into disrepute, may have put off some parents from allowing their children to play the game.

No way does he deserve a free entry straight back at NRL level, he has to serve a penance for a while like Carney did.

Carney went and played bush footy and earned money pouring beers. Packer spent a year in jail... Are you telling me that Carney served more penance than Packer?

 

[Splinter]

re: [Confirmed] Russell Packer --> Panthers

Obviously I disagree.

It's the intent, degree and intensity of a beating that makes the difference, not whom the victim is.

The reason behind the violent act is also extremely important to me, as in Packer's case fuelled by a blind alcohol rage at someone accusing him of pinching a couple of ciggarettes, as opposed to a father beating a guy within an inch of his life because he found out he was his daughter or wife's rapist...

How do you know it was just the accusation. It has been reported many times Packer said the other guy threw the first punch which if true is asking for a belting. Packer should not have carried it on so far.
Also the first punch was unproven as it was out of camera range.

I also never mentioned father or rapist in my comment

 

[broncos4life]

re: [Confirmed] Russell Packer --> Panthers

So it's not what you're saying, but yes it is...? :confused:

I guess I made it personal by asking how you would feel it the crime was done to someone close to you, because yes, I absolutely find it deplorable that people will look at a fucking criminal's rights above those of their victim, just because the victim is no one they know. The idea was to make you reflect on this, not actually have a go at you... until you actually admitted to doing exactly that.
I shouldn't argue your opinions because we're mates? I don't think so! In fact probably more so because we are, I feel I can have these debates and differences of opinion with you. Doesn't mean I won't buy you a beer at the next game... and then throw you over the balustrade with it. :thefinger:

Back to the issue and at the risk of repeating myself again...
I absolutely support rehabilitation for criminals, but not by handing them a high profile, high reward job (which is what I meant by elite) like playing for a NRL club. That is a privilege that shouldn't be afforded to violent criminals!
A menial anonymous job, playing park or regional footy should be good enough. Once he proves he has indeed changed his ways and as long as his victim doesn't suffer from it, he might earn a reprieve down the track.

Regarding the classification of this crime, I said it earlier, but I will also repeat it:
In these type of offenses, the prosecutor will generally go with a charge that carries a good probability of success, or even a plea (as was the case), not necessarily what it should be.
Note that the judge's sentence and the fact he wasn't afforded bail while his case was on appeal, shows exactly what they thought of this.

You don't seem to comprehend that by stomping on someone's head, you're essentially trying to kill a person!
Yet you're comparing that with an act, which as despicable and inexcusable as it is, is nowhere near the same severity.

If you have served your time you should be entitled to whatever job you can get as long as it doesn't add to your ability to reoffend. For instance, certain criminals should not be able to have a job that allows them to have access to children etc.

How would playing NRL on a minimal contract give him anymore opportunity to re-offend than working at maccas? He would still be able to kick someone's head in at a pub regardless.

I never said we can't disagree because we are mates, I just thought you were making it personal by saying stuff like "as much as you want it" etc. But it really doesn't matter and I don't care, I just wanted to address it so you don't say I don't address all of your post :thefinger:

In regards to the bolded, I can comprehend that stomping on someone's head can kill someone, so can bashing any woman, but more so a pregnant one. Yet you tell me that I can't compare the two...

 

[Splinter]

re: [Confirmed] Russell Packer --> Panthers

He may have paid his debt to society in respect of the assault incident, imo he has not repaid his debt to the RL community and the NRL at all. His actions created a lot of negative press for the game and arguable brought the game into disrepute, may have put off some parents from allowing their children to play the game.

No way does he deserve a free entry straight back at NRL level, he has to serve a penance for a while like Carney did.

This is a very valid comment
Surprisingly it drew less press worldwide than Carney pissing in his own mouth

 

[theshed]

re: [Confirmed] Russell Packer --> Panthers

I dont think we need him, and I'd prefer not to have him.

He should be banned from the NRL. Carney got the boot for pissing in his own mouth, this guy stomped a human beings head. I know which one I'd prefer to party with.