Francis Molo

[Porthoz]

you see better reffing at qcup level because 1) the standard isn't as high so it's nowhere near as fast, hence, difficult to keep up with (not necessarily an excuse, but a reasonable explanation) and 2) because qcup refs go back to their job during the week and nothing more is said about them.

how many articles have been dedicated to reffing at a state level?

Although Qcup is not that much slower, yes, it does make it a bit easier for the refs and partially explains it.

Having said that, it does not explain the howlers we see way too often in FG, the inconsistency in reffing within the same game, the way too obvious piggy-back penalties (which of course, relate to the inconsistency), all of which you do not see in lower grades.

Regardless, there is a clear difference between how the NRL is officiated and any other code, or even the SL in Europe!

 

[Renegade]

Again, I tend to think the piggyback penalties are a result of being scrutinized too heavily.

it's an interesting junction because;

should refs ref as they see it? if they do and one team is heavily penalized, the focus shifts from the team having poor discipline to the ref for killing the game

But if the refs try and even it up, based on the sheer magnitude of scrutiny, then they're accused of fixing games

In either scenario, the refs can't win and are blasted because of?

Do I think piggybacks exist? To a degree yeah. Do I think they should? Absolutely not, but I can see the fundamentals driving this, and I don't think it's entirely the refs competence (or there lackof) that are to blame for this.

 

[CaptainHook]

Great discussion happening the last few hours guys. Loving all these posts.

Question: why isn't the send off rule used more? Answer: it seriously impinges on the game result, depending on the time of incident. Some refs will send a player off with 10 to go but I don't remember the last time a player was sent off in the first half.
We need to allow refs to use the send off without fear of a sacking. The most obvious is to allow the first player removed from the field, be replaced with an interchange. I would make a 10 minute wait for this to happen, simulating a sin bin. It would allow an otherwise good team to compete and limit the ref's impact on the game (the chief reason send offs aren't used for dangerous tackles). The "sin bin" time still hurts the team to prevent dangerous strategies of targeting key personnel and its only for the first player on a side removed that an interchange could replace.

That's a damn good question @Thelmus

Personally, I don't care if sending a player off for an illegal tackle impinges on the result. They've done the wrong thing. They know the rules. If they cost their team a win with a bone headed tackle that has been outlawed for years then so be it.

More importantly, the result, the time on the clock, whether it's 13 on 13 or not should be the furthest thing from the referee's mind.

It's interesting to note the aftermath of the SBW red card the other night. Not much outcry at all. It was dangerous. It was unnecessary. It was an easy decision. Tell your fucking story walking, Sonny Bill.

Nothing like that exists in our game. Instead we have this toxic mentality of 'aw hell, it didn't look that bad.'

So if it looks fairly innocuous and doesn't cause an injury then that's all good. That's like saying it's okay to speed as long as you don't cause an accident or kill someone.

Imagine if SBW was still in our game and did that tackle. Imagine if a referee (say Cecchin or Sutton for example) sent him off. The outcry would be enormous.

It's a fucking blight on Rugby League which leads me to my next point. The commentators and media personalities in Rugby League are doing enormous damage to the code. Gould, Rothfield, Kent - the game has passed them by. they need to move on if they care about Rugby League.

It's a different world. Column inches need filling. A 24 hour NRL channel needs content and referees are a soft target to fill that space. I mean, we can't have drug scandals and match fixing allegations every week can we?

We need to empower our referees. We need them to referee Rugby League in a good spirit and to hell with what makes good television or not.

 

[CaptainHook]

Although Qcup is not that much slower, yes, it does make it a bit easier for the refs and partially explains it.

Having said that, it does not explain the howlers we see way too often in FG, the inconsistency in reffing within the same game, the way too obvious piggy-back penalties (which of course, relate to the inconsistency), all of which you do not see in lower grades.

Regardless, there is a clear difference between how the NRL is officiated and any other code, or even the SL in Europe!

Great post, Port.

I actually have a theory about consistency. Somewhere along the line Rugby League fans have equated consistency with an even (more or less) penalty count.

It defies all logical sense. If a side is consistently doing the wrong thing and consistently getting penalised it wouldn't be uncommon to see heavily lopsided penalty counts.

In Rugby League, possession is everything.

Coaches like Hasler, Paul Green, Bellamy, even players like Thurston etc know that they have good teams. If a good side can get at least 50/50 possession that goes a long way to winning a game. Which is why they go out of their way to mention penalty counts, the fact that Adam Blair 'sails close to the wind' etc.

 

[gordjw]

Again, I tend to think the piggyback penalties are a result of being scrutinized too heavily.

it's an interesting junction because;

should refs ref as they see it? if they do and one team is heavily penalized, the focus shifts from the team having poor discipline to the ref for killing the game

But if the refs try and even it up, based on the sheer magnitude of scrutiny, then they're accused of fixing games

In either scenario, the refs can't win and are blasted because of?

Do I think piggybacks exist? To a degree yeah. Do I think they should? Absolutely not, but I can see the fundamentals driving this, and I don't think it's entirely the refs competence (or there lackof) that are to blame for this.

If the refs blew penalties as related to the actions of the players, not the situation of the game, they'd have a leg to stand on to defend themselves (or to have the NRL do it).
If they're going to basically try to control the "flow" of the game, by selective enforcement, they don't have that leg to stand on.

I don't know exactly who's responsible, but it seems to be a definite tactic from the NRL to manufacture results, close finishes, etc etc. A cynical person might say that betting companies are involved.

 

[Renegade]

If the refs blew penalties as related to the actions of the players, not the situation of the game, they'd have a leg to stand on to defend themselves (or to have the NRL do it).
If they're going to basically try to control the "flow" of the game, by selective enforcement, they don't have that leg to stand on.
.

It would require a unified, prolonged effort on behalf of both the refs and the nrl to protect their integrity. Complete with proper fines. We need to take the focus off the refs, we are willingly putting them under the spotlight every week and it should not be that way. I guess it's a bit chicken and egg.

Once refs aren't afraid of doing their job, I think you'll see an improvement.

 

[Renegade]

On a side note, I'm glad the sin bin has reappeared. It seems most people sent have deserved it and the media hasnt tried to change the narrative about it, so we're seeing it employed more often. Good!

 

[BroncsFan]

Have to agree with most things being said in these last few posts.

The media is far too influential on reffing due to the headlines they create from errors they perceive to be incorrect. I say perceive because half the time they're complaining about rules which were enforced correctly (mead on tommy t for example).

I believe these articles are influencing the refs in game and potentially from the top down i.e. the NRL trying to avoid negative headlines.

I hate the leg up penalties that inevitably come to a team that's been getting rightly flogged. If a shit team is getting 30 points put on them because they're shit don't blow the whistle to allow them to get back into it. Momentum and field position is everything in league and creating it artificially through referring decisions is dead set fixing a game.

The video ref decisions I believe are based on this bs that the ref has to send up a decision of try/no try. The vid ref then goes so far out of their way to make sure the onfield is correct (rapana try last week being a perfect example).

The qcup that was mentioned earlier is clearly because the media coverage is minimal and therefore no uproar if a team is done wrong. Also minimal video evidence to resort to therefore the fans just accept the decision on the field.

NRL is the only sport I can think where the officiating is so influential on a game that bookies should be focussing on them to fix a game instead of players... and yet the rules aren't even enforced, because the media cavemen don't want to see 60 penalties a game.

 

[CaptainHook]

It would require a unified, prolonged effort on behalf of both the refs and the nrl to protect their integrity. Complete with proper fines. We need to take the focus off the refs, we are willingly putting them under the spotlight every week and it should not be that way. I guess it's a bit chicken and egg.

Once refs aren't afraid of doing their job, I think you'll see an improvement.

Agreed. We have to empower our refs. That means blocking out dribble from the likes of Rothfield etc.

I've been beating up on the NRL a lot lately but one of the things they did right was back Gerard Sutton to the hilt when James Graham broke Reynold's leg in that Easter clash a few years ago.

I would've bought Graham's 'but sir, I couldn't pull out in time, was an accident honest!' if he didn't have wrap sheet as long as your arm. The guy bit Billy Slater in a GF ffs.

I think the solution is clear. The NRL need to tell the referees to officiate the game however they see fit. Forget KPI's. Forget consistency. If you think a team is holding down penalise them. Offside? Penalty! Dangerous conduct? Point to the sideline and get the fucking muppet off the field.

Players aren't dumb. Pretty quickly they'll learn which ref likes to keep a skinny 10 meters, which ref won't cop blockers taking out chasers, etc, etc...

 

[Renegade]

I think the solution is clear. The NRL need to tell the referees to officiate the game however they see fit. Forget KPI's. Forget consistency. If you think a team is holding down penalise them. Offside? Penalty! Dangerous conduct? Point to the sideline and get the fucking muppet off the field.

Players aren't dumb. Pretty quickly they'll learn which ref likes to keep a skinny 10 meters, which ref won't cop blockers taking out chasers, etc, etc...

Short term pain for long term gain. But can the code and the media hang on until such a time? I have my doubts

 

[BroncsFan]

Short term pain for long term gain. But can the code and the media hang on until such a time? I have my doubts

Well we know the media won't they talk about the referring in origin before the game is even played.

Seriously how can they be expected to do their job with the media scrutiny blasting the spotlight on them and no backup coming from the NRL who just sit on their hands and look to the referees boss... absolute joke

 

[Porthoz]

It would require a unified, prolonged effort on behalf of both the refs and the nrl to protect their integrity. Complete with proper fines. We need to take the focus off the refs, we are willingly putting them under the spotlight every week and it should not be that way. I guess it's a bit chicken and egg.

Once refs aren't afraid of doing their job, I think you'll see an improvement.

The problem is that the NRL caters to the media, and wants to artificially maintain an illusion of equality and competitiveness, which they see as the code's major calling card. Lopsided penalty counts and scores would hurt that perspective...

I doubt Harris would've been sent against us, if we had been the ones dominating the game for example.

 

[CaptainHook]

Short term pain for long term gain. But can the code and the media hang on until such a time? I have my doubts

Sadly not. I was mainly thinking out loud but you're right. The media and the code simply won't abide it.

The media, in all aspects of society, will grab the low hanging fruit. They can't help it. They know no other way. It's a 24 hour news cycle. Bugger long term thinking. What can we use to fill column inches right now?

Only Steve Mascord is interested in the long term health of the game. He isn't afraid to ask the tough questions but it falls on deaf ears.

He even dared to ask the question - is Rugby League incompatible with modern life? He makes a pretty good point.

 

[Big Del]

Two words ; News Limited .

So much scrutiny of the act of scoring a try . Where as the fwd pass that created it is a no go zone . WTF is up there .
More fwd passes not pulled up this season than I`ve ever seen . 4 officials on field none can judge if a ball traveled fwd ??

 

[Astro]

Two words ; News Limited .

So much scrutiny of the act of scoring a try . Where as the fwd pass that created it is a no go zone . WTF is up there .
More fwd passes not pulled up this season than I`ve ever seen . 4 officials on field none can judge if a ball traveled fwd ??

Because it's open for interpretation. Was the ball released from the hands backwards? Anytime a rule is not black and white it leaves room for error.

As a matter of fact who came up with the out of the hands backwards ruling? Is that something that's just been introduced in the last decade?

 

[Big Del]

Out of the hands has been around since the 80s . That I know of .

 

[Brent81]

Unfortunately refs are complete chicken hearted cowards.

The NRL doesn't need to back them. The NRL needs to tell them to do their fucking jobs.

The first Origin was a shit game. Hold downs, high shots, blokes taken without the ball, forward passes.

I get the shits when refs are selective in their interpretation. If it's a breach of the rules stick the whistle in the mouth and blow a fucking penalty.

If the penalty count is high then that's on the players.

Use the sin bin. Cows, Roosters and Storm are the kings of cynical penalties. Put them in the bin. If they don't get the message put another in the bin.

And change the penalty try rule. Make it like union. Let the ref award a penalty try for repeated infringements.

And another thing. Since when are the bin and a penalty try alternatives? Against the Storm Brisbane should have got a penalty try and Harris should have gone to the bin.

 

[john1420]

Unfortunately refs are complete chicken hearted cowards.

The NRL doesn't need to back them. The NRL needs to tell them to do their fucking jobs.

The first Origin was a shit game. Hold downs, high shots, blokes taken without the ball, forward passes.

I get the shits when refs are selective in their interpretation. If it's a breach of the rules stick the whistle in the mouth and blow a fucking penalty.

If the penalty count is high then that's on the players.

Use the sin bin. Cows, Roosters and Storm are the kings of cynical penalties. Put them in the bin. If they don't get the message put another in the bin.

And change the penalty try rule. Make it like union. Let the ref award a penalty try for repeated infringements.

And another thing. Since when are the bin and a penalty try alternatives? Against the Storm Brisbane should have got a penalty try and Harris should have gone to the bin.

Yes, but it's reported as the best reffing in origin history, because it was a free flowing game!