IF Bennett is NOT a Supercoach;

[JaseC]

they were the minor premiers and got beaten in the grand final qualifier. that DOES say a lot i reckon - just the complete opposite of what you think it does lol. it says, to me, that even if they werent over the cap for the last 4 years they still wouldve got the 2 premierships, 3 minor premierships, and lost those other 2 grand finals.

I'm not sure if I'm reading this correctly, but are you saying that a qualifying finals game is a mark of success? I agree it is, because in all sport on any given day. However is that what you are saying AP? If so, this quote seems hypocritical;

People seem to forget Bennett's abysmal finals record with the broncos from 2001 through til 2008 just because we won a premiership. We won 1, but lost pretty much every other finals match in every other year. Hell, we even lost one in our premiership winning year.

This is the abysmal finals record you speak of;

2001- Preliminary final game
2002- Preliminary final game
2003- Qualifying final
2004- Semi final game (massive injury toll leading into semi final loss to Cowboys)
2005- Semi final game (lost to Tigers who went on to be Premiers)
2006- Premiers
2007- Thumped by an illegal team which went on to win the Premiership. Who knows what might have been if that team wasn't illegal.
2008- Semi final game, lost to an illegal team which went on to a GF spot.

So from 2001-2008, there is only 3 legal seasons in which Brisbane did not make a preliminary. 2003 was poor, 2004 was a horror injury run into the semis, 2005 was lost to the Premiers in a semi. I know 14 other teams in the comp that would be happy with that strike rate.

2009- Lost Preliminary to an illegal team who went on to win the Premiership. Broncos had already beaten Parramatta (the other GF team) that season, therefore it's not a stretch to think Broncos, with a legal roster, could have won this season.
2010- No finals appearance
2011- Preliminary final game, lost to eventual Premiers (minus the primary playmaker)

Just threw this in here so you can see how the illegal Storm team impacted directly on the Broncos. Reading your posts sometimes makes me wonder if you understand the impact one team cheating can have on other teams.

 

[JaseC]

With Newcastle he inherited a team chock full of rep and junior rep players who have struggled with consistency and fielding the same team due to injuries to key players. Much like st George.

and how many of those were actually current rep players? 2, maybe 3? and nearly all for 'we'll pick anyone' NZ, none for NSW and only 1 for QLD.

Anonymous Person; your quote on a list of players you mentioned Storm have lost since they started playing by the same rules as the 15 other clubs.

I get confused by you. Newcastle's team "choc full of rep players" has only 4 current reps, however the Storm players lost weren't that good as they weren't current rep players. Do you entertain the idea that that train of thought could seem hypocritical to the rest of us?

 

[Anonymous person]

awww isnt this nice, ive got a fan.

 

[Anonymous person]

Performance in finals:

2001 - 1 win, 2 losses
2002 - 1 win, 1 loss
2003 - 1 loss
2004 - 2 losses
2005 - 2 losses
2006 - 1 loss, 3 wins
2007 - 1 loss
2008 - 1 win, 1 loss

thats 6 wins, 11 losses.

then after he went to the dragons:

2009 - 2 losses
2010 - 3 wins
2011 - 2 losses

thats 3 wins, 4 losses

so overall, since 2001, its 9 wins and 15 losses - or a win rate of 37.5%. not what youd want from a "super coach".

 

[Nashy]

Is this really happening? I locked the thread, and that's a sign to open a new one?

I'll leave this to another admin to make a decision, I'm sick of this BHQ vs. AP ****.

 

[JaseC]

awww isnt this nice, ive got a fan.

Of course! I understand your need for attention. You need the attention the BHQ community gives you, as much as BHQ needs a villain.

I understand your point now. In your opinion, the success of a coach, can be judged by how his team performs in the most critical matches of a season.

IMO, I agree the success of a coach has to judged in part by his finals success, but also by his success to make the critical matches of the season regularly by creating a winning culture. Something Bennett has most definitely done, as has Bellamy.

 

[JaseC]

Is this really happening? I locked the thread, and that's a sign to open a new one?

I'll leave this to another admin to make a decision, I'm sick of this BHQ vs. AP ****.

I'm sorry I opened a new thread, I wasn't sure why the other thread was locked. There was simply a post from yourself stating the debate was over. I am unsure why, as there was nothing I saw which would offend any individual members of the community or the community as a whole.

If Anonymous Person is offended by this thread, he only needs to say so. I don't believe he is, he seems to revel in the attention.

 

[Meat77]

Dude - the issue is that this topic has been done to death on here. I can see you're a newbie - trust me - look at some old threads and this has been AP's little baby for years...

 

[Nashy]

I'm sorry I opened a new thread, I wasn't sure why the other thread was locked. There was simply a post from yourself stating the debate was over. I am unsure why, as there was nothing I saw which would offend any individual members of the community or the community as a whole.

If Anonymous Person is offended by this thread, he only needs to say so. I don't believe he is, he seems to revel in the attention.

Because the argument wasn't going to stop. No one was going to convince AP, and AP wasn't going to convince anyone. It's a pointless topic.

 

[Big Pete]

It's a shame AP ruined that topic by turning it into another double standard dribble fest. I believe it would have been interesting to have seen other comparisons particularly to Fulton, Ryan & Gibson.

 

[Nashy]

AP is banned from this thread now. I welcome decent discussion as intended for the previous thread.

 

[Coxy]

I'd start with discussion of what constitutes a super coach. What criteria would you judge by?

On field performance: finals appearances, premierships
Rep performance: rep series coaching record
Adaptability: success with different clubs, different teams, different rules
Longevity: overall and at clubs
Off field: man management, how past players speak of them, ability to retain players for multiple contracts, performance of players under him vs other coaches.
Innovation: new tactics, techniques, coaching methods

Any thing else?

 

[ningnangnong]

Ease up on JaseC, gang, he's only new here!

JaseC, don't worry about grumpy, old Nashy. As you've probably gathered by now, AP doesn't really take anyone's opinions on board and just seems to argue for the sake of arguing. Many quality threads have been ruined as they've turned into circular debates where it's basically every man and his dog versus AP. :handshake:

Good decision to ban AP from this thread, Nashman. I look forward to some well informed discussion. :smile:

 

[Ari Gold]

I think premierships is the first thing you look for. They may not make you a supercoach but absence of them means you are not one. I also tend to dilute the value of doing well with poorer rosters - Brian Smith is a good example. Can do good things with average squads but cannot make them into premiers. Only if a coach has multiple premierships do the other things matter - after all, you can retain all the players you like and make them all into rep players but if you don't win a premiership with them then what does it matter?

I think WB is the closest thing we have, followed by Des, who has made a promising start with what I think is an average Bulldogs roster.

In all sports, I think nobody beats Jose Mourinho. The man is a tactical genius.

I know, wrong sport for this topic but it segues to something I thought I would bring up -- How much of an effect do you really think a coach has on a team's performance. Rugby league strikes me as a sport where once the first whistle blows the coach cannot impact the game much when compared to other sports.

 

[mrslong]

I'd start with discussion of what constitutes a super coach. What criteria would you judge by?

On field performance: finals appearances, premierships
Rep performance: rep series coaching record
Adaptability: success with different clubs, different teams, different rules
Longevity: overall and at clubs
Off field: man management, how past players speak of them, ability to retain players for multiple contracts, performance of players under him vs other coaches.
Innovation: new tactics, techniques, coaching methods

Any thing else?

Wayne Bennett & Tim Sheens are the only current coaches that cross off every point in this list.
But I think Tim Sheens has lost his way and tries too hard to be innovative and hasn't had the consistent success of Bennett.

If Des Hasler can win with the Dogs in the next couple of years, he will jump ahead of Bellamy in the coachint stakes, however he hasn't really done much in the rep arena.

Craig Bellamy has the added bonus of being based in Melbourne without prying eyes and constant media attention, and has little brown bags of money lying around his club house.

Wayne Bennett is the clear winner here. Anyone who thinks otherwise works for news ltd.

 

[Aeetee]

I'm sorry I opened a new thread, I wasn't sure why the other thread was locked. There was simply a post from yourself stating the debate was over. I am unsure why, as there was nothing I saw which would offend any individual members of the community or the community as a whole.

If Anonymous Person is offended by this thread, he only needs to say so. I don't believe he is, he seems to revel in the attention.

JaseC FYI if a thread is locked, its cause a member of the Admin team has made the call. Its doesn't there was "nothing I saw which would offend any individual members of the community or the community as a whole." thread closed thread closed.

We'll leave this thread open for now as an Admin has already posted in it and let it slide. But if it turns to ****; its gone. Like many have said, most of us are over the whole AP v The World. Sure debate is fun, flogging a dead horse sucks balls. So feel free to PM each other back and forth and keep on smacking the **** out of that pony :)

Play nice kiddies, we have a bet club going of who will ban someone first. Wife needs clothes babies need shoes............

 

[Big Pete]

Well let's get this show on the road.

I want to start what could be an extremely long post by addressing an issue that really grinds my gears: the fascination with numbers in Rugby League. Contrary to popular belief, Rugby League cannot be dissected by numbers, numbers don't tell you a difference between a try save and an ordinary flop tackle, won't tell you who was pivotal in the make up of a try and for mine has generated this fascination for quantity > quality which to me isn't Rugby League and is providing a poor education for a new generation of fans coming through. This is why you cannot dissect Bennett's career by adopting an economics approach.

An economist would look at Bennett's career and would see this
7 premierships in 25 years (28%)
Canberra Raiders Win Percentage: 60.7%
Brisbane Broncos Win Percentage: 63.7%
St. George Illwarra Win Percentage: 64.6%
Newcastle Knights Win Percentage: 40%*
Total NRL Win Percentage: 63.5%

Representative
Queensland Win Percentage: 50%
Australia Win Percentage: 75%

Source: http://www.rugbyleagueproject.org/coaches/Wayne_Bennett/summary.html

I'd include his BRL percentages but unfortunately nobody seems to care enough about that competition which is another pet peeve of mine.

These numbers actually look pretty good but they're not the reason why Bennett is considered such a great coach. To prove this all you need to do is look at the circumstances behind the premierships.

1992/93 - Came off the back of Bennett's decision to go on form and not on reputation. Decisions like favouring the Walters boys over Origin heroes Lewis & Conescu, identifying an issue in the forwards and signing Lazarus & showing patience in players like Renouf paid off and we went from pretenders to a premiership force.

1997/98 - Similar story to 92/93. Bennett identified issues that prevented the Broncos from meeting his high expectations and he made some tough decisions releasing stalwarts such as Kerrod, Carne, Cann & originally Hancock, but he chose to stay on reduced pay for the likes of Lockyer, Webcke & Tallis. Webcke in particular is a prize example of Bennett's coaching.

Back in the day, Steve Price was the golden child of Qld junior Rugby League. Everyone lined up for Price and knew he was going to be a good 'un (which he became, but took him until the end of his career to live up to the hype), Webby on the other hand was an unfashionable forward with issues who was really a 100-1 to play at the level he did. Yet Bennett found a way and Webby became the best prop in the game.

You can also make a similar case for Tallis. Most experts said he would only be valuable on the bench, Bennett turned him into the best second row in the game and arguably one of the best of all time. At his peak, I don't think anybody touches Tallis.

Then there's Lockyer, the greatest of all time. Came to the club as a five eigth, Bennett found traits that he thought would make a good fullback and wouldn't you know it? He was right and that right there gave the Broncos that missing link in attack they were missing years prior and really paved the way for modern fullbacks and how involved they are in playmaking.

Combine these factors with a good foundation of skill and old fashioned hard work (De Vere & Campion deserve special mentions here) and Bennett once again got the Brisbane juggernaut right back on track.

2000 - ...until it looked like it derailed in 1999. That was such a hard year to explain, were our players exhausted after two straight premierships? Were some just on borrowed time? Or did Bennett make a mistake in preparation? Nobody knows but in the end, I believe it was Bennett's hard work in '99 that lead to our success in 2000. Before '99 Brisbane were one of the most flamboyant sides in the game filled with playmakers who had no problem shifting the ball around. This was great when everyone was on song, but when times get tough and plays lack the confidence you need that grit and determination to fall back on, this is what Benny developed in '99.

I've seen people say we were a sure thing of winning the 2000 premiership and I often wonder how they come to that conclusion? Brisbane had just lost their key player, the kingpin of their success in the 90s & the likes of Renouf, Gee, Plath & Ryan were replaced by virtual no names in Tuqiri, Carlaw, Berrigan & Harrison. Of course Brisbane still had a couple of good players in Lockyer, Sailor, Webcke & Tallis but nobody would have thought these players would have carried a side filled with over the hill players & virtual nobodies not only into a premiership but as easily the most dominant team in the competition.

2006 - Arguably, Bennett's greatest achievement. Off the back of the disappointments of 2001-2005 which ranged from injury crisis' to just not having the troops Bennett finally made a big call and made sweeping changes to his coaching staff. Gone were Walters, Lazarus & Belcher and in came Henjak & Benton and our approach changed. No longer were we going to base our play around one player, instead the focus became more on Hunt and originally Ennis/B. Berrigan & Seymour but that didn't pan out for various reasons so we settled for stop gaps in Perry & McGuire for the majority of the season.

When things started to go south, Bennett made some dramatic and very risky changes in...

Hodges: Centre - Fullback
Berrigan: Centre - Hooker
Hunt: Fullback - Roaming Winger
Stagg - Backrow - Centre
Thaiday - Bench - Starting Backrow

And suddenly a season that seemed destined for disappointment turned into a crowning achievement. While we're on the subject of the 2006 GF let me just say this. Any talk about it being a dirty victory is deluded. Even forgetting the Storm going out of their way to cheat the cap (some people need to learn the difference), the Broncos earned that win. Did we get some fortunate 50/50s? Sure, but how many important games did we have where we weren't so lucky? From 2001-2003 we were penalised out of the finals and a victim of rules that would later be changed. The point I'm making is, yes, we were fortunate but it evens out all the times when we weren't.

I also have a theory that the 2006 premiership was a by product of all the hard work in 2004 for fairly obvious reasons.

2010 - This post is getting long enough, but in a nut-shell Bennett completely re-invented one of the most complacent clubs in the competition into one of the most professional units and had his finger prints all over their premiership.

So as you can see, every premiership was a reward off of Bennett's good thinking. I haven't even touched his Origin career which for mine is just as good despite the numbers. And also address the 2005 Tri Nations series which was filled with plenty of factors.

Nor have I compared him to other coaches, that will probably be for another post.

In the end though, I just don't know how you can't think Bennett is one of the better coaches of all time. Super doesn't imply perfect, it just means he's above the majority.

 

[Foordy]

great analysis Big Pete