VOTE Should Cronk be considered for immortal status?

[broncsgoat]

Relevance your honour.

Your claim was Cronk shouldn't be immortal because he didn't play in rubbish teams- I asked who did and you claimed Johns- well Newcastle won two premierships.

How was that a rubbish team?

Try and stay on track.

Do you think Cronk should be an immortal?

 

[broncsgoat]

That’s what I thought. Back in ya box mate

 

[Battler]

No and neither should Slater, JT, GI, Gallen, or any other player from the 2000s who isn’t Cameron Smith, Darren Lockyer, or Andrew Johns.

Edit: Johns’ best was untouchable. Locky was the best of all time in two positions (Slater being a better FB is a meme spread by people with recency bias). Smith was the clear best in his position and arguably the best player of all time. If JT becomes an immortal you have to also include Fittler, Alf, etc.

The recent crop of inductees ruined the concept anyway.

 

[Morkel]

No and neither should Slater, JT, GI, Gallen, or any other player from the 2000s who isn’t Cameron Smith, Darren Lockyer, or Andrew Johns.

Edit: Johns’ best was untouchable. Locky was the best of all time in two positions (Slater being a better FB is a meme spread by people with recency bias). Smith was the clear best in his position and arguably the best player of all time. If JT becomes an immortal you have to also include Fittler, Alf, etc.

The recent crop of inductees ruined the concept anyway.

I agree with this, except maybe with the exception of Thurston. He made piss-ordinary teams contenders, not necessarily through talent alone, but competitiveness and heart. That last year of his cost him dearly, but he was peak awesome for a whole decade.

Slater, GI and Cronk and worthy of a Hall Of Fame nomination. Gallen's not even there.

 

[broncsgoat]

I just feel good. I served @1910 and he got scared.

 

[1910]

I just feel good. I served @1910 and he got scared.

Petrified actually that someone could know so little about league.

It's good those four Dragon Immortals salvaged something out of their career, after playing in such a rubbish 11 premiership in a row team.

 

[mrslong]

Nope, if he is then you need to include Kev Walters in the discussion, I consider them very similar type players. Hard working, extremelysmart players without the freakish athleticism.

 

[Nashy]

Yeah, he's an Immortal.

That might just be my preference, but Cronk is just one of those players whose addition to your side you know for certain will be a net positive. There's no doubts possible, if you can get 30 year old Cooper Cronk to play 7 for your club, you do so. No questions asked. That is my criteria for being an Immortal, a reputation that cannot be denied by anyone whether it be supporter, venomous hater or whatever in between.

Last year I think proves he's a cut above too. Not many players could win a grand final while trying to avoid touching the ball.

 

[Super Freak]

No.

Not after his role in the salary cap rort. There is no way those players did not know.

 

[Super Freak]

Another reason, if Kevvie and Alfie aren't going be Immortals, then neither should Cronk.

Kevvie and Alfie won 4 premierships as a partnership, both of them back-to-back. Kevvie won 6 GF's and didn't have any of them stripped.

 

[Big Pete]

I understand where fans are coming, Cronk won twice as many grand finals as Andrew Johns, but was only instrumental in the first premiership (2012). This impression was crystalised in the 2018 Grand Final when Cooper Cronk spent portions of the match positioned as a trainer well behind the play and rarely involved himself in the contest. Sydney won easily on the night despite Cronk's application or lack there of.

In contrast, Joey set up the match winner in 1997 despite missing half the season and then controlled things beautifully to orchestrate one of the biggest upsets in Grand Final history against the Eels.

So I can understand why fans don't consider personal records the end all to be end all. If that was the case, then Kevin Walters six premierships would make him a better five eighth than Wally Lewis and Bobby Fulton, an opinion that's shared by very few people.

Cronk should get there someday, but at this point he'll have to bide his time and wait for at least Lockyer, Smith and Thurston to be recognised. I feel Lockyer and Smith speak for themselves, but with Thurston the fact he was preferred over Cronk for so long in rep teams will give him the edge, similar to the Lewis vs. Kenny debate.

I wouldn't mind digging into this further but on the surface this is how I see it. Cooper Cronk was very much by the book. He's an extremely coachable player and if you give him basic instructions he'll execute them to a tee and can control a game beautifully. However if you're chasing points and you need to conjure up points and adapt to the situation, he could be found wanting.

JT wasn't as consistent as Cronk but he had a better read of the game and wasn't afraid to chance his arm more. JT was able to perform outside of structures and rely more on his natural instincts and talent which made him such a difficult player to coach against.

Both extremely good players, but I tend to believe fans, coaches and players respect a player of JT's talent more than Cooper.

 

[Allo]

Not to directly counterpoint BP, but I just don’t rate JT as highly. He did some ridiculous things in his career, and all his stated attributes I agree with, but I can’t shake the feeling he’s just not in the same group.

Maybe I’m subconsciously biased against him, or more, the people rating him that highly (and no not because of 2015), but he’s on the level of a Freddy or a Sterlo. Icons of the game, but not era-defining legends. Same with Slater.

Johns was far too early, but I’m not averse him being one, despite how much he tries to show how much he shouldn’t with some of his moronic takes in commentary and blatant lusting after players lol

Cronk, Slater and JT will probably become ones, but they should be down the list a bit once it gets up to around 13-15

 

[Dash]

Kevin Walters has 6 premierships and can't even get into the Hall of Fame.

The Immortals concept has been cheapened to the point where it's just the regular Hall of Fame, and the HoF itself has become a bunch of dudes who played footy back in the day.

 

[theshed]

I understand where fans are coming, Cronk won twice as many grand finals as Andrew Johns, but was only instrumental in the first premiership (2012). This impression was crystalised in the 2018 Grand Final when Cooper Cronk spent portions of the match positioned as a trainer well behind the play and rarely involved himself in the contest. Sydney won easily on the night despite Cronk's application or lack there of.

In contrast, Joey set up the match winner in 1997 despite missing half the season and then controlled things beautifully to orchestrate one of the biggest upsets in Grand Final history against the Eels.

So I can understand why fans don't consider personal records the end all to be end all. If that was the case, then Kevin Walters six premierships would make him a better five eighth than Wally Lewis and Bobby Fulton, an opinion that's shared by very few people.

Cronk should get there someday, but at this point he'll have to bide his time and wait for at least Lockyer, Smith and Thurston to be recognised. I feel Lockyer and Smith speak for themselves, but with Thurston the fact he was preferred over Cronk for so long in rep teams will give him the edge, similar to the Lewis vs. Kenny debate.

I wouldn't mind digging into this further but on the surface this is how I see it. Cooper Cronk was very much by the book. He's an extremely coachable player and if you give him basic instructions he'll execute them to a tee and can control a game beautifully. However if you're chasing points and you need to conjure up points and adapt to the situation, he could be found wanting.

JT wasn't as consistent as Cronk but he had a better read of the game and wasn't afraid to chance his arm more. JT was able to perform outside of structures and rely more on his natural instincts and talent which made him such a difficult player to coach against.

Both extremely good players, but I tend to believe fans, coaches and players respect a player of JT's talent more than Cooper.

Well said, Pete. As always.

If I’m in front with 60 minutes to go I probably want Cronk in my team. If I’m behind with 20 minutes to go, I chose JT all day. Cronk knew what it took to win, while JT didn’t know how to lose.

You put those attributes together and you get Lockyer. Which is why I personally agree with those saying Lockyer, and John’s were a cut above these 2 as halves.

 

[broncsgoat]

Nope, if he is then you need to include Kev Walters in the discussion, I consider them very similar type players. Hard working, extremelysmart players without the freakish athleticism.

This.

And we all know kevvie won’t be

 

[john1420]

The concept is rubbish anyway, but that said, I have Cronk in it ahead of Slater and arguably Smith too
But if Cronk is in, you have to include Alf and Kevvie
There should really only be a hall of fame anyway
John's inclusion was the death of it, and boy they just don;t let it go either - his 2 shows are called "freddy and the eighth" and "immortal behavior"
And always talking about him as the 8th immortal, fk me give it a rest

 

[Mr Fourex]

The concept is rubbish anyway, but that said, I have Cronk in it ahead of Slater and arguably Smith too
But if Cronk is in, you have to include Alf and Kevvie
There should really only be a hall of fame anyway
John's inclusion was the death of it, and boy they just don;t let it go either - his 2 shows are called "freddy and the eighth" and "immortal behavior"
And always talking about him as the 8th immortal, fk me give it a rest

Not sure what arguement you could possibly come up with that has Cronk getting the imortal award ahead of Cameron Smith? If you could come up with such a thing.....I'd suggest you get a job as a lawyer....or dabble in the field of politics.

 

[john1420]

Not sure what arguement you could possibly come up with that has Cronk getting the imortal award ahead of Cameron Smith? If you could come up with such a thing.....I'd suggest you get a job as a lawyer....or dabble in the field of politics.

Oh, of course there is an argument.........it just might not be a good one ;)
Also bear in mind I said arguably, by which I mean I can argue for it, but I am not convinced either way - IMO you can make a case each way
So, here goes :)
A lot of what Smith has achieved has an asterisk next to it, in fairness the same for Cronk
The 2 of them spent most of their time together in;
1) an illegal team whose achievements should not be recognised
2) a once in a lifetime Origin team, chock full of other superstars, not just them
Smith's (and Cronk's) participation in the greatest winning run and domination in Origin history makes them part of the most dominant Origin team, not the individual reason for it (a big part yes of course)
If we judge them just on this so far, they are both exceptional but Smith does come out in front
But then 2018 happens, and Cronk and Smith find themselves on the opposite side of the field for the first time, and what happens?
The roosters dispatch the storm both years to take the premiership
Cronk took it to Smith and beat him
So that's an argument to have him in there ahead of Smith, but it's not definitive, just an argument