NEWS Wayne Bennett hits Brisbane Broncos with $400k claim

[Morkel]

He had every right to accept or refuse without a doubt. The abandoning of players bullshit is a nice spin, but I'm pretty sure they will survive without him, and a few of those players who he was crucial to maintain or recruit even decided to stay at the Broncos AFTER his sacking.

There are plenty of things I don't agree with that aren't conspiracies.
That sentence in bold is and example of how they are generally born. Unless you have any evidence to support it (other than what WB said, which clashes with everything else known about the affair), you're just making up a storyline so you don't have to believe Bennett could be a manipulator who lied and played both sides, and instead believe that the Broncos had this genius evil plan to sack Bennett while pretending otherwise.

I generally like to follow the evidence to draw my conclusions, and albeit not always successful, I try to avoid confirmation bias as much as possible. Facts are that there is plenty to support my stance and zero to support yours, I even made a post about it a while ago, which none of you could rebut.

You want to believe everyone is lying except Wayne, go for it, but don't blame anyone for wanting to offer you a tinfoil hat.

Hahahahaha, avoid confirmation bias as much as possible? I've seen you with my own eyes grit your teeth while crediting Bennett with out 2015 performance. It is no surprise why your own conclusions have fallen where they have.

Zero evidence to support my stance? I have plenty. Like I said earlier, all candidates bar Seibold were available to start in 2019, and even though Seibold wasn't available until 2020, here we are. Also, from the timelines as leaked by the reporters who you so firmly base your opinion on, the negotiations for an immediate swap happened long before Bennett's contact with Souths regarding plans for 2019. None of this is proof, of course, but it is evidence that supports my theory that the Broncos did not want Bennett coaching us post-2018.

Actually, what is your official position? That Bennett planned all along to get sacked by Brisbane, and didn't actually want to stay on in 2019? Or that his contact with Souths was genuinely the trigger for his sacking? Because the former would indeed suggest that you think he was only in it for the money, and the latter would be completely ignoring the afore-mentioned timelines, and would once again require you to answer the question you keep avoiding: Was there a scenario where Bennett coached the Broncos is 2019?

 

[Nashy]

Love the off season.

 

[Porthoz]

Hahahahaha, avoid confirmation bias as much as possible? I've seen you with my own eyes grit your teeth while crediting Bennett with out 2015 performance. It is no surprise why your own conclusions have fallen where they have.

Zero evidence to support my stance? I have plenty. Like I said earlier, all candidates bar Seibold were available to start in 2019, and even though Seibold wasn't available until 2020, here we are. Also, from the timelines as leaked by the reporters who you so firmly base your opinion on, the negotiations for an immediate swap happened long before Bennett's contact with Souths regarding plans for 2019. None of this is proof, of course, but it is evidence that supports my theory that the Broncos did not want Bennett coaching us post-2018.

Actually, what is your official position? That Bennett planned all along to get sacked by Brisbane, and didn't actually want to stay on in 2019? Or that his contact with Souths was genuinely the trigger for his sacking? Because the former would indeed suggest that you think he was only in it for the money, and the latter would be completely ignoring the afore-mentioned timelines, and would once again require you to answer the question you keep avoiding: Was there a scenario where Bennett coached the Broncos is 2019?

First, I have never hidden my dislike for Bennett's football tactics, nor for what he did to Griffin.
Whether I grit my teeth or not, fact is I did and do credit Bennett when he's owed, which actually proves I try to avoid confirmation bias. You on the other hand, fail to criticise him for... well, anything at all. It's always someone or something else's fault.

Second, you have zero evidence the negotiations happened without Bennett's knowledge, and let's make this perfectly clear... the Broncos were completely entitled to want to move him on! Whether they are right about it, only the future holds.
This doesn't mean that what they did wasn't above board, nor that they didn't attempt to negotiate with Bennett in good faith. There is ZERO evidence this did not happen, and plenty that it did.

Third, my opinion is that there were definitely scenarios where Bennett would be the coach in 2019, albeit not likely. Seibold and Souffs wanting to complete the contract before moving on, instead of agreeing to an early trade, is just one of them.
I also believe everyone was confident the swap was going to happen, and negotiations to make it happen definitely occurred with WB's knowledge, until Bennett torpedo'ed it all with his rogue presser.
If you want to believe that Bennett wasn't in the loop of the impending trade, and most likely had agreed to terms (at least verbally), when everyone else was ready for it, I've got a bridge to sell you.

What I don't have an opinion on, are the reasons why Bennett appears to have lied to everyone. I can't read the man's mind, so whether it's money, loyalty to players, ego, or a combination of all of the above (most likely), is something we probably will never know, but I sure would like to see the matter go to court to clarify it.

 

[big k]

Those so hell bent on standing up for Bennetts honor and bad mouthing the club should **** off to souths with him.

 

[pagey]

Those so hell bent on standing up for Bennetts honor and bad mouthing the club should **** off to souths with him.

Maybe you should just grow up and deal with it. People are always going to have different opinions and a lot of people think Bennett was a big part of this club , but you obviously don't get it so just move on.

 

[M.B.88]

Maybe you should just grow up and deal with it. People are always going to have different opinions and a lot of people think Bennett was a big part of this club , but you obviously don't get it so just move on.

You can very honestly think he was a massive part of this club and still think he went rogue sour and bitter and had to be moved on. You can also appreciate and even still redirect what he's done, his legacy and still think he's a douchebag.
You can still admire someone and actually not want to have a beer with them. Maturity sees grey in people and allows one to notice their strengths but also the things they do that aren't savoury. Bennett is a mixed bag of salty nuts. Good for a while but you just can't keep snacking on them. End up running you dry

 

[Morkel]

First, I have never hidden my dislike for Bennett's football tactics, nor for what he did to Griffin.
Whether I grit my teeth or not, fact is I did and do credit Bennett when he's owed, which actually proves I try to avoid confirmation bias. You on the other hand, fail to criticise him for... well, anything at all. It's always someone or something else's fault.

Second, you have zero evidence the negotiations happened without Bennett's knowledge, and let's make this perfectly clear... the Broncos were completely entitled to want to move him on! Whether they are right about it, only the future holds.
This doesn't mean that what they did wasn't above board, nor that they didn't attempt to negotiate with Bennett in good faith. There is ZERO evidence this did not happen, and plenty that it did.

Third, my opinion is that there were definitely scenarios where Bennett would be the coach in 2019, albeit not likely. Seibold and Souffs wanting to complete the contract before moving on, instead of agreeing to an early trade, is just one of them.
I also believe everyone was confident the swap was going to happen, and negotiations to make it happen definitely occurred with WB's knowledge, until Bennett torpedo'ed it all with his rogue presser.
If you want to believe that Bennett wasn't in the loop of the impending trade, and most likely had agreed to terms (at least verbally), when everyone else was ready for it, I've got a bridge to sell you.

What I don't have an opinion on, are the reasons why Bennett appears to have lied to everyone. I can't read the man's mind, so whether it's money, loyalty to players, ego, or a combination of all of the above (most likely), is something we probably will never know, but I sure would like to see the matter go to court to clarify it.

I'll address the rest later, but the bold bits are the crux of why I believe your stance is hypocritical.

If the Broncos are entitled to move Bennett on, they were similarly entitled to move Griffin on. However I understand that's not why you didn't like what happened - it's because Bennett effectively gave the club an ultimatum, if they wanted him coaching them again, it would be at Griffin's expense. However, you're ignoring the facts of the time. Bennett's contract with the Knights was null and void. In fact, IIRC, his contract was actually with Tinkler's company (Hunter Sports Group???), and when Tinkler was rightfully booted, Bennett was a free agent. He wanted to coach the Broncos again, and isn't the sort to take a one-year caretaker role anywhere because it's in neither his or that club's interests. So while it sucked for Griffin, it was the logical path.

Just as it is a logical path for Bennett & Seibold to swap immediately. But in the same way, it involves Bennett being terminated before his contract is up. If you believe Griffin was hard done by by Bennett's decision, then logic dictates you should believe that Bennett was hard done by by the Broncos & Souths decision.

 

[Morkel]

First, I have never hidden my dislike for Bennett's football tactics, nor for what he did to Griffin.
Whether I grit my teeth or not, fact is I did and do credit Bennett when he's owed, which actually proves I try to avoid confirmation bias. You on the other hand, fail to criticise him for... well, anything at all. It's always someone or something else's fault.

Second, you have zero evidence the negotiations happened without Bennett's knowledge, and let's make this perfectly clear... the Broncos were completely entitled to want to move him on! Whether they are right about it, only the future holds.
This doesn't mean that what they did wasn't above board, nor that they didn't attempt to negotiate with Bennett in good faith. There is ZERO evidence this did not happen, and plenty that it did.

Third, my opinion is that there were definitely scenarios where Bennett would be the coach in 2019, albeit not likely. Seibold and Souffs wanting to complete the contract before moving on, instead of agreeing to an early trade, is just one of them.
I also believe everyone was confident the swap was going to happen, and negotiations to make it happen definitely occurred with WB's knowledge, until Bennett torpedo'ed it all with his rogue presser.
If you want to believe that Bennett wasn't in the loop of the impending trade, and most likely had agreed to terms (at least verbally), when everyone else was ready for it, I've got a bridge to sell you.

What I don't have an opinion on, are the reasons why Bennett appears to have lied to everyone. I can't read the man's mind, so whether it's money, loyalty to players, ego, or a combination of all of the above (most likely), is something we probably will never know, but I sure would like to see the matter go to court to clarify it.

Why are you still falsely claiming that I believe Bennett did nothing wrong? I have admitted all along that there are actions that Bennett took that he could and should have done differently. My point is that his reasons behind those actions are not as selfish or nefarious as some people are claiming, and as the media have enjoyed portraying.

His "loyalty" to the players is not a fluffy story designed to hoodwink fans. There are numerous players in the squad that owe a lot of their careers to Bennett. And, specifically, two of our most important and impressionable players that, almost unarguably, are in Broncos colours only because of him. TPJ is one, Lodge being the other. Lodge in particular doesn't so much as owe his career, but his life to Bennett. Who knows where he would have ended up, but before Bennett took him in it seemed inevitable he'd be back in Sydney, labouring, while still under the influences and vices that got him in to trouble in the first place. So really, I am not exaggerating when I say that loyalty was a critical factor in Bennett's decision making.

It would have been exceedingly hypocritical for him to be agreeing to terms that would separate him from the players that he himself promised to oversee. Hence why he steadfastly refused to stand down. My theory, which I have no proof of, but perfectly fits the resulting events, is that any agreement that Bennett was asked to made in order to facilitate an immediate swap, revolved around him stepping down. Why, I can only presume, but I suspect it would have something to do with the club avoiding any potential backlash that would arise from publicly firing Bennett, and with his standing at the Broncos, those concerns would be warranted. However, if it was a choice the Broncos were willing to make, they should have had the balls to do it immediately. That's what I don't like about the Broncos' choice of actions. The swap was inevitable, everyone including Bennett knew, but instead of agreeing to Bennett's terms, or simply firing him, they courted the media until the perception was that Bennett was playing both sides and could warrant terminating him due to breaches.

The press conference was a bad call, that I will freely admit. However, it followed the Broncos offering him one final opportunity to take up a deal that they knew Bennett would not agree to, and Bennett used the situation to affirm that he would not step down and intended to honour his commitments. Yes, it turned the situation in to a circus, and it is entirely possible Bennett did this deliberately, to force the Broncos to do that which they were previously too cowardly to do, namely get it over with and fire him. So while I will criticise him for his actions, I hold the Broncos' bullshit leading up to it as at least equally as farcical.

 

[M.B.88]

You can very honestly think he was a massive part of this club and still think he went rogue sour and bitter and had to be moved on. You can also appreciate and even still redirect what he's done, his legacy and still think he's a douchebag.
You can still admire someone and actually not want to have a beer with them. Maturity sees grey in people and allows one to notice their strengths but also the things they do that aren't savoury. Bennett is a mixed bag of salty nuts. Good for a while but you just can't keep snacking on them. End up running you dry

More like a bag of fruit and nut.
Hard and salty but with an added couple of dried up prunes to go with it.

 

[Huge]

First, I have never hidden my dislike for Bennett's football tactics, nor for what he did to Griffin.
Whether I grit my teeth or not, fact is I did and do credit Bennett when he's owed, which actually proves I try to avoid confirmation bias. You on the other hand, fail to criticise him for... well, anything at all. It's always someone or something else's fault.

Second, you have zero evidence the negotiations happened without Bennett's knowledge, and let's make this perfectly clear... the Broncos were completely entitled to want to move him on! Whether they are right about it, only the future holds.
This doesn't mean that what they did wasn't above board, nor that they didn't attempt to negotiate with Bennett in good faith. There is ZERO evidence this did not happen, and plenty that it did.

Third, my opinion is that there were definitely scenarios where Bennett would be the coach in 2019, albeit not likely. Seibold and Souffs wanting to complete the contract before moving on, instead of agreeing to an early trade, is just one of them.
I also believe everyone was confident the swap was going to happen, and negotiations to make it happen definitely occurred with WB's knowledge, until Bennett torpedo'ed it all with his rogue presser.
If you want to believe that Bennett wasn't in the loop of the impending trade, and most likely had agreed to terms (at least verbally), when everyone else was ready for it, I've got a bridge to sell you.

I can't read the man's mind, so whether it's money, loyalty to players, ego, or a combination of all of the above (most likely), is something we probably will never know, but I sure would like to see the matter go to court to clarify it.

So, to be clear. You believe WB was fully aware of the impending trade. You also believe he had most likely agreed to it. Logically then the Bronco's also knew. So, when they told the media that WB would be coaching the Bronco's in 2019, they were LYING? Right ? They stated he would be the coach, not that he had a contract but that he would be doing the job.

I'm not sure if it's individual egos, a money issue or if the board was influenced externally but clearly the Bronco's lied, publicly and should be held to account and going to court will air those back room deals.

According to Porthoz logic.

 

[lynx000]

I just don't find the evidence that's been shared to be compelling

And then there's the overwhelming likelihood that there's more evidence that hasn't been shared, meaning we don't know all the facts

It is a perilous mistake to dogmatically form an opinion in such a situation

I find it inconceivable that any 1 party is 100% to blame and equally that any 1 party is 0% to blame, so I share the blame amongst both coaches and both clubs

Due to not knowing all the facts I cannot put a percentage on where the blame falls, so I just have to leave it at that

This is the most balanced and fair comment I have seen about all of this, and probably the most accurate as well. We should all adopt this as the default position and move on.

 

[Dee]

Guys, Wayne has left and we now have a new coach. Whether you like Wayne or you don't, the bottom line is he's gone and won't be coming back. It's finished. We must move on in every way if we are going to do anything special in 2019. The media and everyone else can still dwell on this but as Broncos fans, we should move past it by now and look to the future with Seibold and co.

 

[Porthoz]

I'll address the rest later, but the bold bits are the crux of why I believe your stance is hypocritical.

If the Broncos are entitled to move Bennett on, they were similarly entitled to move Griffin on. However I understand that's not why you didn't like what happened - it's because Bennett effectively gave the club an ultimatum, if they wanted him coaching them again, it would be at Griffin's expense. However, you're ignoring the facts of the time. Bennett's contract with the Knights was null and void. In fact, IIRC, his contract was actually with Tinkler's company (Hunter Sports Group???), and when Tinkler was rightfully booted, Bennett was a free agent. He wanted to coach the Broncos again, and isn't the sort to take a one-year caretaker role anywhere because it's in neither his or that club's interests. So while it sucked for Griffin, it was the logical path.

Just as it is a logical path for Bennett & Seibold to swap immediately. But in the same way, it involves Bennett being terminated before his contract is up. If you believe Griffin was hard done by by Bennett's decision, then logic dictates you should believe that Bennett was hard done by by the Broncos & Souths decision.

It's not the same thing. Bennett approached the Broncos and made them an ultimatum, right after he publicly said he would never accept a job at a club with a coach under contract.

The Broncos actions, while not exactly pretty (like now), were absolutely their right, which is something you're just going to keep ignoring, like the way Griffin behaved as compared to Bennett.

Why are you still falsely claiming that I believe Bennett did nothing wrong? I have admitted all along that there are actions that Bennett took that he could and should have done differently. My point is that his reasons behind those actions are not as selfish or nefarious as some people are claiming, and as the media have enjoyed portraying.

His "loyalty" to the players is not a fluffy story designed to hoodwink fans. There are numerous players in the squad that owe a lot of their careers to Bennett. And, specifically, two of our most important and impressionable players that, almost unarguably, are in Broncos colours only because of him. TPJ is one, Lodge being the other. Lodge in particular doesn't so much as owe his career, but his life to Bennett. Who knows where he would have ended up, but before Bennett took him in it seemed inevitable he'd be back in Sydney, labouring, while still under the influences and vices that got him in to trouble in the first place. So really, I am not exaggerating when I say that loyalty was a critical factor in Bennett's decision making.

It would have been exceedingly hypocritical for him to be agreeing to terms that would separate him from the players that he himself promised to oversee. Hence why he steadfastly refused to stand down. My theory, which I have no proof of, but perfectly fits the resulting events, is that any agreement that Bennett was asked to made in order to facilitate an immediate swap, revolved around him stepping down. Why, I can only presume, but I suspect it would have something to do with the club avoiding any potential backlash that would arise from publicly firing Bennett, and with his standing at the Broncos, those concerns would be warranted. However, if it was a choice the Broncos were willing to make, they should have had the balls to do it immediately. That's what I don't like about the Broncos' choice of actions. The swap was inevitable, everyone including Bennett knew, but instead of agreeing to Bennett's terms, or simply firing him, they courted the media until the perception was that Bennett was playing both sides and could warrant terminating him due to breaches.

The press conference was a bad call, that I will freely admit. However, it followed the Broncos offering him one final opportunity to take up a deal that they knew Bennett would not agree to, and Bennett used the situation to affirm that he would not step down and intended to honour his commitments. Yes, it turned the situation in to a circus, and it is entirely possible Bennett did this deliberately, to force the Broncos to do that which they were previously too cowardly to do, namely get it over with and fire him. So while I will criticise him for his actions, I hold the Broncos' bullshit leading up to it as at least equally as farcical.

The same way you claim I believe the Broncos did nothing wrong?

I have never criticised (on the contrary) Wayne for his relationship with his players, and his value to the Broncos and said players in that aspect.
I have many times advocated for what the Broncos offered... a place in the Broncos hierarchy where he would have as big, if not bigger an impact in player retention, recruitment, and well being. However, he doesn't seem to be loyal enough to the players to want that.
Could it be because it would suddenly not benefit him as much as the players?

The rest of your post is made of assumptions without basis in any proof at all, especially that bold bit, as opposed to everything that came out pointing to Wayne's manipulation. But yes, I'm sure it's all a News Corp conspiracy...

So, to be clear. You believe WB was fully aware of the impending trade. You also believe he had most likely agreed to it. Logically then the Bronco's also knew. So, when they told the media that WB would be coaching the Bronco's in 2019, they were LYING? Right ? They stated he would be the coach, not that he had a contract but that he would be doing the job.

I'm not sure if it's individual egos, a money issue or if the board was influenced externally but clearly the Bronco's lied, publicly and should be held to account and going to court will air those back room deals.

According to Porthoz logic.

Yeah, if there wasn't a timeline attached to this, you might have a point. But 2 parties (Broncos and WB) being in agreement 3 weeks before about him being the 2019 coach, is NOT the same thing as 2 parties being in agreement about a trade 1 day before it's set to be announced (there is more than enough circumstancial evidence proving this), and one party (Bennett) going suddenly rogue and torpedoing it. Unless you use Huge logic of course...

 

[Huge]

It's not the same thing. Bennett approached the Broncos and made them an ultimatum, right after he publicly said he would never accept a job at a club with a coach under contract.

The Broncos actions, while not exactly pretty (like now), were absolutely their right, which is something you're just going to keep ignoring, like the way Griffin behaved as compared to Bennett.


The same way you claim I believe the Broncos did nothing wrong?

I have never criticised (on the contrary) Wayne for his relationship with his players, and his value to the Broncos and said players in that aspect.
I have many times advocated for what the Broncos offered... a place in the Broncos hierarchy where he would have as big, if not bigger an impact in player retention, recruitment, and well being. However, he doesn't seem to be loyal enough to the players to want that.
Could it be because it would suddenly not benefit him as much as the players?

The rest of your post is made of assumptions without basis in any proof at all, especially that bold bit, as opposed to everything that came out pointing to Wayne's manipulation. But yes, I'm sure it's all a News Corp conspiracy...


Yeah, if there wasn't a timeline attached to this, you might have a point. But 2 parties (Broncos and WB) being in agreement 3 weeks before about him being the 2019 coach, is NOT the same thing as 2 parties being in agreement about a trade 1 day before it's set to be announced (there is more than enough circumstancial evidence proving this), and one party (Bennett) going suddenly rogue and torpedoing it. Unless you use Huge logic of course...

Oh, so three weeks before they knew, both WB and the Bronco's that is, that they were going to start 2019 hand in hand. There were no plans, no contact and discussion with Souths, no discussion with WB about moving. They knew and WB knew what the plan was. Okey dokey then.

Suddenly, out of nowhere everyone KNEW that WB wasn't going to be coach, he could either resign or be sacked but what changed? The change must have been very rapid because the Bronco's knew with certainty only a few days before that change that WB would be here. Whatever could have happened?

So, to summarise.
WB announces he's staying
The Bronco's announce WB is staying
WB announces he's staying
The Bronco's announce they've sacked WB.

Only one party stayed consistent. The Bronco's reneged on their commitment or the Bronco's lied. No matter how you put it, the Bronco's were the ones who changed their tune. I think they outright lied and not just once but several times.

 

[heartly87]

What i don't understand is how any of this matters. Love Wayne but just like when he left for the Dragons he is nothing to me at this time. He is a rival coach and dead to me. My love is for the club and the players the put that jersey on each week. I highly doubt that any of you would consider changing your support of a team over this. I understand it's the off season but this shit is just boring. We all know non of them are without a part of blame and Wayne is not a perfect man. Lets start actually talking up the side and getting excited for 19.

 

[Harry Sack]

I realise I am aiming that at 3 of the most opinionated, text wall writing posters on the forum but hey......worth a shot. Quite frankly I'm also starting to become slightly unnerved at the frequency of Huge and Morkel agreeing with each other. That shit will keep us long time members up at night.

I think we can all agree, as has been said numerous times now, that neither party is squeaky clean here so what's the point? Whether it's 50/50 or 70/30 it doesn't make a shits worth of difference now. Wayne's gone, Seibs is here. It's time to move on, get excited about the changes to the club and the difference a fresh approach will have on this team. It's time to be bold...time to be...Seibold.

 

[Nashy]

It's time to be bold...time to be...Seibold.

 

[Morkel]

It's not the same thing. Bennett approached the Broncos and made them an ultimatum, right after he publicly said he would never accept a job at a club with a coach under contract.

The Broncos actions, while not exactly pretty (like now), were absolutely their right, which is something you're just going to keep ignoring, like the way Griffin behaved as compared to Bennett.


The same way you claim I believe the Broncos did nothing wrong?

I have never criticised (on the contrary) Wayne for his relationship with his players, and his value to the Broncos and said players in that aspect.
I have many times advocated for what the Broncos offered... a place in the Broncos hierarchy where he would have as big, if not bigger an impact in player retention, recruitment, and well being. However, he doesn't seem to be loyal enough to the players to want that.
Could it be because it would suddenly not benefit him as much as the players?

The rest of your post is made of assumptions without basis in any proof at all, especially that bold bit, as opposed to everything that came out pointing to Wayne's manipulation. But yes, I'm sure it's all a News Corp conspiracy...

I just re-watched Bennett's press conference, and he explicitly stated that the club asked him that morning to make a decision, and that he made the same decision that he had 10 times earlier, ie, that he's staying. So the bolded being "without basis in any proof at all" is one of the few things that we actually do have direct quotes from one of the parties on. No one has refuted that, not from the Broncos and not from the media.

It was reported that Bennett was expected to accept the deal, not that he ever had agreed to it. And who are the ones who expected it? The Broncos, or the media, who so desperately wanted him to walk that they were practically salivating at the thought?

I realise I am aiming that at 3 of the most opinionated, text wall writing posters on the forum but hey......worth a shot. Quite frankly I'm also starting to become slightly unnerved at the frequency of Huge and Morkel agreeing with each other. That shit will keep us long time members up at night.

I think we can all agree, as has been said numerous times now, that neither party is squeaky clean here so what's the point? Whether it's 50/50 or 70/30 it doesn't make a shits worth of difference now. Wayne's gone, Seibs is here. It's time to move on, get excited about the changes to the club and the difference a fresh approach will have on this team. It's time to be bold...time to be...Seibold.

Sorry mate, I would, but I have a strong opinion on this, and just because the media want to take down Wayne, and some are more than willing to run with it to fuel their own bias, I'm digging in for the old guy.