Australia vs India - Test Series

[The True King]

What are historical averages of off spinners.

Because I'm lazy this list is not comprehensive but I made sure they took 150+ wickets and were were post-1950.

Laker (Eng) - 21.24
Murali (SL) - 22.72
Ashwin (Ind) - 25.53
Tayfield (RSA) - 25.91
Underwood (Eng)- 25.83
Ajmal (Pak) - 28.10
Ramadhin (WI) - 28.98
Gibbs (WI) - 29.09
Mushtaq (Pak) - 29.83
Swann (Eng) - 29.96
Presanna (Ind) - 30.38
Lyon (Aus) - 31.98
Singh (Ind) - 32.22

In summary, if you were to look at every off-spin bowler that's taken 150+ test wickets since 1950, Lyon's average is the second worst ever.

If you were to look at every Australian bowler to have taken 100+ test wickets ever, Lyon's average would be the second worst ever.

 

[Fitzy]

I picked those stats because they were over a longer time period. The sample size you've choosen is based on 3 games of shield cricket this season.

By your logic - Ellis who has taken 12 wickets in 3 games and Agar who has taken 10 in 3 games are better bowlers than Lyon who has taken 9 wickets in 3 games.

Those stats are fucken irrelevant from 3 years ago... like you go compare marnus and khawaja 3 fucken years ago on who’s better like shit the **** up... and 9 is not as dissimilar to 10 as 14 is to 7

 

[The True King]

Those stats are fucken irrelevant from 3 years ago... like you go compare marnus and khawaja 3 fucken years ago on who’s better like shit the **** up... and 9 is not as dissimilar to 10 as 14 is to 7

Statistically speaking a 3 game sample size is pretty irrelevant too.

The only reason I didn't go back further than 3 years was that neither took 5+ wickets in 2016/17 and I couldn't find their numbers. I would agree it's largely irrelevant what they did back then but it does demonstrate that Steketee has consistently outperformed Abbott in shield cricket by most metrics.

For the record, I agree with your original comment that Richardson and Neser are better than both.

 

[1910]

Because I'm lazy this list is not comprehensive but I made sure they took 150+ wickets and were were post-1950.

Laker (Eng) - 21.24
Murali (SL) - 22.72
Ashwin (Ind) - 25.53
Tayfield (RSA) - 25.91
Underwood (Eng)- 25.83
Ajmal (Pak) - 28.10
Ramadhin (WI) - 28.98
Gibbs (WI) - 29.09
Mushtaq (Pak) - 29.83
Swann (Eng) - 29.96
Presanna (Ind) - 30.38
Lyon (Aus) - 31.98
Singh (Ind) - 32.22

In summary, if you were to look at every off-spin bowler that's taken 150+ test wickets since 1950, Lyon's average is the second worst ever.

If you were to look at every Australian bowler to have taken 100+ test wickets ever, Lyon's average would be the second worst ever.

Bet they didn't list the amount of tests played.

Meanwhile their bowling averages:
Lyon - 31.98
Broad - 28.65
Ashwin - 25.53
Anderson - 26.79
Herath - 28.07
Boult - 28.02
Southee - 28.70
Starc - 27.14
Shah - 30.85
Philander - 22.32

So aside from a 42yo who's still kicking around the sub-continent he's the only one to average 30+ with the ball. Nice Garry!

I’ll take wickets and games over worrying if one guy averaged 30.5 or 29.6.

 

[The True King]

I’ll take wickets and games over worrying if one guy averaged 30.5 or 29.6.

So you would take Michael Clarke (games, centuries, runs) as a batsman over Michael Hussey (average)?

 

[Sproj]

So you would take Michael Clarke (games, centuries, runs) as a batsman over Michael Hussey (average)?

Conversely, you'd take Adam Voges over Virat Kohli?

I'm not siding with @1910 but there is an argument both ways.

 

[The True King]

Conversely, you'd take Adam Voges over Virat Kohli?

I'm not siding with @1910 but there is an argument both ways.

No, not even close. Voges played 20 tests and didn't even score 1,500 runs. That has to be factored in. It's one of the reasons why Brad Hodge wasn't a better batsman than Ponting.

Mark Waugh played 128 tests and is 6th all time for Australian run scorers. On those alone he'd have a case for our greatest test XI but I doubt he even makes the shortlist once his average of 41.81 is taken into account.

Lyon will be in the same boat.

 

[Sproj]

No, not even close. Voges played 20 tests and didn't even score 1,500 runs. That has to be factored in. It's one of the reasons why Brad Hodge wasn't a better batsman than Ponting.

Mark Waugh played 128 tests and is 6th all time for Australian run scorers. On those alone he'd have a case for our greatest test XI but I doubt he even makes the shortlist once his average of 41.81 is taken into account.

Lyon will be in the same boat.

Of course Lyon is in the same boat as is any spinner not named Shane Warne, it is a moot point.

Additionally, Mike Hussey did not play as many tests as Clarke did and Hussey's average was on the steady decline by the time he retired. Has he played the extra 35-40 tests Clarke did, his average may have been lower anyway.

The point is, both great players but in comparison to Bradman or Steve Smith, both fall far short.

Lyon is a great player but in comparison to Warne, it is a no contest. I don't think anyone claims or has claimed Lyon is Australia's greatest spinner, that would be stupid. He is however Australia's greatest offspinner, arguably at worst.

 

[1910]

So you would take Michael Clarke (games, centuries, runs) as a batsman over Michael Hussey (average)?

No what I do is back my knowledge and watching judgement to know if someone is a good player. I don't need to know what Border's average was and don't care if it was 50.26 or 50.12 to know what he did and what I saw.

The only average I know is Bradman's average.

If someone has 400 test wickets I know they can play, if they average 30.3 I don't care.

The only averages stand out to me is if they're ridiculous such as a player averaging 130 in a season or 18 if he's a bowler. Even then I would more remember that he scored 1300 runs or took 60 wickets and I saw him bowl and bat really well.

 

[1910]

No, not even close. Voges played 20 tests and didn't even score 1,500 runs. That has to be factored in. It's one of the reasons why Brad Hodge wasn't a better batsman than Ponting.

Mark Waugh played 128 tests and is 6th all time for Australian run scorers. On those alone he'd have a case for our greatest test XI but I doubt he even makes the shortlist once his average of 41.81 is taken into account.

Lyon will be in the same boat.

All you talk is averages and who has the better one and how a good average should automatically be in the test team.

 

[Unbreakable]

 

[Dexter]

At least we know he wasn't faking it .

 

[Allo]

I’m willing to wager that the players that fill-in for Pucovski will end up playing more Tests than him over the course of his career

 

[Sproj]

This is the combined injured/unavailable XI from Australia and India:

1. Pucovski
2. Warner
3. Rahul
4. Kohli
5. Vihari
6. Pant (Haha good one India)
7. Jadeja
8. Pattinson
9. Shami
10. Sharma
11. Yadav

Fair side on the sidelines that.

On a totally random side point, whatever happened to James Muihead? He was the next big thing and then just totally fell off the face of the Earth.

 

[The True King]

I feel like I've been on an anti-Lyon crusade so I'm going to stop now. I'll always maintain he's not a great but I'm willing to concede he is average and many people really rate him.

We should be celebrating the achievement that is 100 tests and so that's what I am going to try and do.

He seems like a decent bloke so I hope he plays another 45 tests, get another 312 wickets and breaks all of Warne's records.

 

[Fitzy]

Statistically speaking a 3 game sample size is pretty irrelevant too.

The only reason I didn't go back further than 3 years was that neither took 5+ wickets in 2016/17 and I couldn't find their numbers. I would agree it's largely irrelevant what they did back then but it does demonstrate that Steketee has consistently outperformed Abbott in shield cricket by most metrics.

For the record, I agree with your original comment that Richardson and Neser are better than both.

No their the only relevant stats cause it doesn’t matter who was better 3 years ago it is who is better right now

 

[Bull Shark]

Bet they didn't list the amount of tests played.

Meanwhile their bowling averages:
Lyon - 31.98
Broad - 28.65
Ashwin - 25.53
Anderson - 26.79
Herath - 28.07
Boult - 28.02
Southee - 28.70
Starc - 27.14
Shah - 30.85
Philander - 22.32

So aside from a 42yo who's still kicking around the sub-continent he's the only one to average 30+ with the ball. Nice Garry!

Ashwin’s record is incredible for an off spinner.. I know he’s had the benefit of home conditions tailor made for his craft but what he’s done out here in Australia has proven just how good he is. I believe he averages about 30 with the ball outside of India which is outstanding in itself for an offie

 

[The True King]