I hate the media!

[Coxy]

broncospwn: the point mrslong and I are probably getting at is that if there were say 8 blokes in that room, all from the Sharks, not ALL of them would really believe it was morally right. You can bet there was at least one there thinking "this isn't right, but I better go along with it or I'll look like a pussy".

I think that's the culture I'm concerned about. It's not league or sport specific, but any area where groups of men (mainly) are working together, particularly in a physical type of environment.

I heard someone say today on radio talking about Charmayne saying "I bet her daddy's proud of his little girl after seeing that". I really wish more people would think "what would my parents think if they knew what I was doing?"

Honestly, I think it'd stop me doing most dodgy things.

 

[Kimlo]

broncospwn: the point mrslong and I are probably getting at is that if there were say 8 blokes in that room, all from the Sharks, not ALL of them would really believe it was morally right. You can bet there was at least one there thinking "this isn't right, but I better go along with it or I'll look like a pussy".

I think that's the culture I'm concerned about. It's not league or sport specific, but any area where groups of men (mainly) are working together, particularly in a physical type of environment.

I heard someone say today on radio talking about Charmayne saying "I bet her daddy's proud of his little girl after seeing that". I really wish more people would think "what would my parents think if they knew what I was doing?"

Honestly, I think it'd stop me doing most dodgy things.

Yeah, absolutely, I agree there, peer pressure plays a huge part, if one of them said i'm going home this is wrong, he'd be given shit for it forever. It's like at school, you're mates are going to jump fence and wag, if you don't go with them, you're a "pussy", "girl", etc.

It's a problem with all of society, not just sports, but when you're a public figure you attract a lot more attention, like krudd with his little incident before he was elected. The players need to be educated at a YOUNG AGE, educating 25 year olds will get you nowhere. It's going to take time before there is improvement, but hopefully there will be.

 

[Coxy]

Plus I think this girl in the Sharks case has had a fairly normal reaction (if somewhat extreme). She was probably drunk and excited about the attention she was getting...and because of her drunkenness probably didn't have the alarm bells ringing when she wandered into a room with 10 blokes.

Doesn't make it illegal, but I definitely believe she's suffered some serious psychological trauma as a result of this. Lots of factors to blame, but none the least alcohol.

It always seems to be the common denominator in these cases.

 

[Flutterby]

I'm going to use the words...role models. No,I'm not saying your under 20 rugby league player is a role model to all the kiddies out there (although the kids MAY look at them that way), but that under 20 rugby league player needs a role model within his club and within the game to help shape his attitude to the game, to his position within the game, his behaviour with the public etc.

[eusa_clap.gi Totally agree with this Coxy - kids need to have role models not to be role models. Then they can grow up and be role models themselves.

whether she was drunk or scared or w/e, she consented and really that's the end of it. The players were drunk and off their head too, they probably wouldn't of done it if they were sober, sorry it works both ways. She may of been scared to say no, but the fact is she didn't, the players are not mind readers to realise she wanted to say no but didn't? I haven't read or seen anything to suggest she did say no, so I really can't see why the players should be blamed for doing this, sure it's absolutely disgusting and personally it makes me sick in the stomach, but it is legal at the end of the day and both parties agreed to the act.

Yes and no. It can be a tricky legal minefield - not refusing doesn't always equal consent. Someone can be found guilty by reason of using power/influence/position - be it physical/emotional/psychological etc . It's why teachers can't have sex with students (whether they are over the age of consent or not); coaches with athletes; bosses with their secretaries etc, regardless of consent - if it can reasonably found that one of the parties had some kind of power or influence over the other which led the victim to believe they had no option. I am not defending the way she has handled this situation now, but I seriously doubt there would be many 19 year olds that once they have agreed to go back to a hotel room with one or 2 footballers, would have the strength of character or feel she was in a position to say no once the other 12 or whatever decided to also join in. There is no doubt she has suffered greatly emotionally and psychologically since the incident and I really do feel for her.

Ultimately they were found not to have any case to answer, so in the eyes of the law they did nothing wrong. Morally - well we all have our own opinions there.

 

[mrslong]

The players need to be educated at a YOUNG AGE, educating 25 year olds will get you nowhere.

Mate, there's a word for that and it's called "parenting".

Of course when you've got nobs like roy masters glorifying the old days you can't help but shake your head in disgust. [icon_non

 

[gUt]

The players need to be educated at a YOUNG AGE, educating 25 year olds will get you nowhere.

Mate, there's a word for that and it's called "parenting".

Of course when you've got nobs like roy masters glorifying the old days you can't help but shake your head in disgust. [icon_non

From what I saw I don't think he was exactly glorifying the old days but I missed the start of the show...

 

[Coxy]

That's a bit of the problem, as I was saying. So many coaches and officials come from the dark ages when boozing, bashing and bonking was perfectly acceptable, because you had to be up at 9am Monday to go to work.

It's 2009, and society's expectations have changed, as has its ability to turn a blind eye to "boys behaving badly".

It's "old boys" clubs that are perpetuating the same attitudes of the past which just aren't compatible with current standards and scrutiny.

 

[Flutterby]

Exactly

 

[mrslong]

He glorified it in his book and refused to come out and say what they used to do was wrong, basically just hedged his bets. Coward.

 

[Coxy]

Actually, this bit of it about Caroline, the girl that Dane Tilse had a crack at probably angers me the most. Not at her at all, but the fact it happened.

http://www.leaguehq.com.au/news/lhqnews ... 20163.html

Named only as Caroline, the woman told ABC's Four Corners program: "There is no way. It's not like if he was just another guy … If I'm going up against Dane Tilse, I'm going up against him, the football team, the NRL, their fans, I'm not going to take that on."

Caroline said Tilse entered her dorm room uninvited while she was asleep and straddled her back. "He started to rub my back and, like, just using the word makes me feel sick, but he was caressing my back and saying in a soft voice, 'Roll over, roll over, you'll enjoy it, just roll over, just roll over.' He kept saying it: 'Just roll over, just roll over.'

"And then he started to put his hands around me between my body and the mattress like in front of me, my front. And doing the same things to the front of me that he was doing to my back."

She added: "He obviously picked up then that I was really starting to get stressed cause I was saying, you know, 'Get off, get off, who are you, get out, who are you, get off.'

"And really started to try - try and sort of struggle, like get up on my elbows and try and get him off. And eventually he got off and walked out the door and left the door open."

Tilse was sacked by Newcastle after the incident and now plays for Canberra.

FFS! It's not like she was drunk. It's not like she had consented to anything or led them on. He just waltzed in and did that (according to her).

Would it have happened if the rest of the team hadn't been around getting drunk and trying to "pick up hoes"? Unlikely.

It's that group/pack hunting behaviour that is really worrying.

What's more scary than that? Being asleep and waking up to find some stranger on top of you trying to get you to have sex with them?

Anyone want to try and justify Tilse's behaviour?

Again it's that whole peer pressure, one upmanship, egging eachother on bullshit that exists in so many sporting environments, military environments, mining environments...almost any predominantly male environment.

It's definitely fucked.

As I said before. I bet Dane Tilse's parents are so proud.

 

[broncosil]

Unfortunately the "good old days" doesn't cut it anymore with the general public. Every incident is highly publicised, particuarly with the introduction of video cameras, mobile phones and the internet (with all three available on one device).

The fact that kids come through now without even working a day in their life is a new factor. They all get to play footy and booze it up while on top dollar. Some aspects of the old days, like working in a real job, should be something reintroduced today. Make these players appreciate what they have so they don't piss it down the drain.

Punishments are not severe enough. Time to bring in financial penalties, suspensions from both club and rep footy, even if it isn't in the right time of the season. De-registration. Even making arrangements with the ESL, who I am sure would participate in such a matter if it meant keeping the filth out.

While nothing illegal actually happened, it is best for all players not to get themselves into these situations and if that means not going out, then so be it. You can't have everything.

 

[schmix]

Agree with everything that's been said about role models etc.

whether she was drunk or scared or w/e, she consented and really that's the end of it. The players were drunk and off their head too, they probably wouldn't of done it if they were sober, sorry it works both ways. She may of been scared to say no, but the fact is she didn't, the players are not mind readers to realise she wanted to say no but didn't? I haven't read or seen anything to suggest she did say no, so I really can't see why the players should be blamed for doing this, sure it's absolutely disgusting and personally it makes me sick in the stomach, but it is legal at the end of the day and both parties agreed to the act.

broncospwn, I think you're missing the point that there is a difference between illegal and wrong. You can do something that is wrong without it being technically illegal in the eyes of the law. You're really defending the rights of these guys to behave like this??

This really has been an eye-opener for me, that so many guys think this way. You say it makes you sick to your stomach, but does it really? Because, to me, it doesn't seem like you've really put yourself in her situation at all. If that's too much of a struggle, try thinking about your sister, or cousin, or best friend going through the same thing. Would you be saying "well she didn't say no, so they did nothing wrong"?

 

[Flutterby]

I agree Coxy - there is absolutely no way that can be defended. I'd say they had some kind of bet or something going on about how many uni students they could have sex with or something, and when he finally left her room, I bet he told the other guys he did have sex with her - I've seen groups of guys making similar types of bets with their mates. It's absolutely disgusting behaviour.

 

[broncosil]

That bit about Caroline would be defined as rape. He shouldn't have been allowed to re-register.

While I agree with you about pack mentality/behaviour, apart from what I have mentioned about punishments, how else do go by stopping this type of behaviour? It's getting ridculous.

 

[rissi_gurl]

My two cents! SLASH RANT lol!

Schmix your just about spot on with everything IMO!

I don't think it's got anything to do with talent. But you're right, it's systemic. There's a major cultural problem there, not just in our sport but as you say, in other "male bonding" areas. We've seen the issues in the past with AFL, the navy "initiations" etc.

I Agree, when you consider that there have been well over 2500 players registered in the NRL over the last 7 years just going off what the program was based on, which was talking about the indiscretions of 50 odd players... it think it paints an accurate picture of society...

Peer Pressure is definitely an issue, but age does also play a big factor...unfortunately you can’t pay someone to teach these kids life experience! And we can say that everyone knows right from wrong, but on the other hand I wasn’t particularly surprised when they showed the under 20s the consent video with the guy and the girl scenario, and they couldn’t see that there were there was no difference.

David Gallop and the Newcastle Knights deserve a Massive wrap IMO.
Gallop didn’t shirk one question, and didn’t sit on the fence either and I thought the access given to the knights players on a broad range of issues was admirable as well... take into account that there would of been a lot of rugby league haters and no nothings watching this... It paints a more accurate picture of where the league its administrators, the players, clubs and fans what our great game to be... and it showed that there are being product steps made towards change by most.

The girl in the NZ saga/sharks saga, I feel sorry for her, I think the context of the program last night changed my opinion to a degree of her coming out 7 years later, I can understand her reasoning, she made the wrong choice and in this big bad world there are people who will take advantage of you, I can’t believe that some people on here can understand that she couldn’t leave or how she could feel victimised... Consent is not black and white! and what they did was degrading. She’s been to hell and back, I can understand when she said she'd shoot them if she could, she tried to hurt herself FGS!

I’ll be honest here, for perspectives sake

I’ve done some really dumb things when I was younger, I used to chased boys that were 6 or 7 years older than me, been drunk and sleep with someone and wondered why I did it the next day, when I didn’t really want to. I’ve been in the position where suddenly I didn’t want to have sex with a guy even though by all accounts id consented to it, and it’s scary, I was about 16 and he was 23 or 24 and I had no idea how I was going to get out of it, you can’t tell me when you don’t know when a girl has changed her mind because I didn’t say anything to him, he just looked at me and said if you don’t want to do this that fine, and he was drunk... that was it, I didn’t have to hear about it or have people judge me for it... I can take responsibility for what I’d done, I meet him at a club, I was too young to even be there legally, but fark I was relieved and I knew I got lucky...
I sure as hell have never been there again!
My whole family are massive RL fans ive got older cousins playing in the NRL and super league and a lot of younger ones playing in the lower grades, I was always at the football, and I got told by my dad that if I ever went off with any of the older boys from the club exactly what would happen and that id get my arse kicked by him when he found out.
we used to always have nrl pre-season games and training camps coming to town, I couldn’t tell you the amount of times me and my cousins got asked to "come back to someone’s hotel room"... it always surprised me how fast they actually cut to the chase and the better they played, the more forward they were... one player - this was at like a training session, kids everywhere middle of the day you get the picture - who has huge profile and is still playing asked me how old I was he said you look like your 18 or 19, but your friends look younger, I bet your the same age I told him I was 15 and he still hit me up, but I knew how to say no and why to say no, and I have never been with an nrl player... But there are a lot of girls who idolise these players, and want to have sex with them and for as long as there a girls like palavi who’s 38 by the way swing themselves around dumb young players are going to participate...

And that was my problem with the program last night, for all the good points it made this is not just a nrl or even a professional sports problem it’s not even really a gender problem, both sexes are to blame, it’s a culture that exists right throughout our society... so it’s not really fair that the ugly spotlight has been put on the NRL, I think its shows we must have the stupidest players of all the codes!

 

[mrslong]

It is no wonder that my mum and dad used to up me when I would come home from town late and say "it's not you we don't trust it's others" they also told me never, ever leave the nightclub with a bloke I don't know/trust and to never ever walk from night club to night club without having a buddy.

I got caught out once or twice in situations that could have gone badly for me, but as those events were occurring and as drunk as I was I remembered my parents advice and managed to extricate myself from those situations before I got into serious trouble.

More onus needs to be on educating young women, because we are the 'weaker' sex and can't defend ourselves physically against blokes, particularly ones full of excess testosterone from the amount of protein and weights they do.

 

[Kimlo]

Agree with everything that's been said about role models etc.

whether she was drunk or scared or w/e, she consented and really that's the end of it. The players were drunk and off their head too, they probably wouldn't of done it if they were sober, sorry it works both ways. She may of been scared to say no, but the fact is she didn't, the players are not mind readers to realise she wanted to say no but didn't? I haven't read or seen anything to suggest she did say no, so I really can't see why the players should be blamed for doing this, sure it's absolutely disgusting and personally it makes me sick in the stomach, but it is legal at the end of the day and both parties agreed to the act.

broncospwn, I think you're missing the point that there is a difference between illegal and wrong. You can do something that is wrong without it being technically illegal in the eyes of the law. You're really defending the rights of these guys to behave like this??

This really has been an eye-opener for me, that so many guys think this way. You say it makes you sick to your stomach, but does it really? Because, to me, it doesn't seem like you've really put yourself in her situation at all. If that's too much of a struggle, try thinking about your sister, or cousin, or best friend going through the same thing. Would you be saying "well she didn't say no, so they did nothing wrong"?

Hey like i said, i think it's disgusting, and everything, I'm not defending them, i'm simply saying IF it was consensual, IF then who i am to judge what's right and what's wrong? I certainly would never get invovled in such filth or even be friends with people who engage is that stuff, but to drag them, and their families through the mud again after 7 years, she already told the police 5 days after, but is brining it up after 7 years again that is the part that pisses me off, Johns would of had a very hard time with his wife 7 years ago, and now this agian, except this time his kids are old enough and will no doubt see this, I would be shocked if i was a 10 year old and saw my dad in the news about this.

I'm not defending what they did, but at the end of the day it was 7 years ago, johns was a immature idiot an dprobably still is, but he shouldn't have to go through the same thing twice, and very likely that he will lose his job and basically his whole future for something which at the end of the day wasn't illegal.
Roosters player anthony cherrington, bashes his wife, pulls out a knife on her, threatened to commit suicide and yet gets away without a fine, suspension, or his name being dragged through the mud, not once but twice after 7 years.

I'm sure the NRL don't want to send out the message that's it ok to bash your wife and pull out a knife on her and threaten to commit suicide which really he should of been suspended for if not de-registered.

I feel sorry for her, but at the end of the day (again if it was consensual) she made her own bed, now she has to lie in it.

I'll stress the IF part, if it wasn't consensual, then I hope the guys go to jail and I couldn't care less what happens to them. The thing is though, we only hear one part of the story, if four detectives investigated and found it to be consensual and legal after investigating all the facts and hearing both sides of the story, then I'd trust that they were right.

 

[guppy]

Not sure why, but the forum is looking all f-ed up for me right now, hence the lack of proper quoting.

broncospwn wrote: "but to drag them, and their families through the mud again after 7 years, she already told the police 5 days after, but is brining it up after 7 years again that is the part that pisses me off, Johns would of had a very hard time with his wife 7 years ago, and now this agian, except this time his kids are old enough and will no doubt see this"

I've thought about the show a fair bit since my original post.

The fact that it was 7 years ago means nothing. If you murder someone 20 years ago, you can still be convicted today.
As many have already said, while what they did may not have been "illegal", it was morally wrong to let this happen to a 19 year old girl. A 19 year old girl surrounded in a room full of large, famous males is likely to be influenced by peer pressure.

It's probably taken her this long to dig up the courage to really speak about it. What we're seeing is a group of women standing up and finally saying "this is not right". It's taken far too many incidents to get to this stage, but we're here.

I feel really sorry for this girl. While watching the show, I think I was so disgusted by the Brisbane girl and her friends targeting footy players that it clouded my original judgement of the others to some extent.
This girl was 19. That's so young. I don't know many 19 year old girls, and that's because I think they're generally immature and not yet fully developed on a social or intellectual level.
I couldn't imagine "picking one up" without feeling as though I was taking advantage of her in some way. Matthew Johns was 30 at the time. That's disgusting.