Melbourne Storm and the great celery hat debate

[Anonymous person]

Remind me again how quiet Inglis was in the 2006 gf?

You're kidding yourself if you think there is any comparison between the amount of influence a rugby league coach can have over a match compred to how much a running coach can have over a race.

hahaha so you can list 1 match where inglis was quiet and say that it was 100% because of the oppositions coaching?

and again, the point went completely over your head. ill reiterate:

"i was saying just because someone lost doesnt mean their coaches coaching ability isnt still the best. "

i didnt compare a rugby league coaches influence to a running coaches influence. i was merely using it in the context of "usain bolt was always going to win, and so was QLD, regardless of what the opposition coach does". again - there were 4 almost guaranteed future immortals in the one team for most of the series' that bellamy coached, along with another possible in inglis (who is also the all time record try scorer in state of origin and still has 5+ years of his career left). i think youre purposely under rating the QLD team to push your "bellamy isnt a good coach" opinion.

I think the point being made is that the closest thing to telling whether the Storm would have won without cheating the salary cap is evident in the fact that their coach was unable to beat his own players with another squad of very talented players.

if someones trying to make that point, theyre deluded.

coaching a side to a premiership and coaching a state of origin team are completely different things.

 

[Son Edo]

I know right! the QLD halves pairing was one of the worst ive ever seen. Thurston? whos he, probably reserve grader. and that "scott prince" guy, he could never be the driving force behind a team winning a premiership.

Bellamy had the team of the century with Anasta and Pearce at the helm for that decider.

Why did Mal put Karmichael Hunt in the halves?

 

[Anonymous person]

Why did Mal put Karmichael Hunt in the halves?

that was a horrible selection, and i said as much back then. Slater was the better choice for fullback (ahhh we had some fun conversations about that on here back in the day), but like selectors often do they select players out of position just to get them in the team. it failed miserably, as most of us expected it to.

the funny thing is that the next year after that failed experiment, Bennett selected Hunt at halfback for the Broncos where yet again he was horrible.

 

[GCBRONCO]

I know right! the QLD halves pairing was one of the worst ive ever seen. Thurston? whos he, probably reserve grader. and that "scott prince" guy, he could never be the driving force behind a team winning a premiership.

Bellamy had the team of the century with Anasta and Pearce at the helm for that decider.

Yet Stuart walks in and nearly beats Queensland this season, funny that, Bellamy had a number of seasons at the very least to get NSW competitive and this is during a period where Queensland was still rebuilding after NSW dominated by and large since 2000 until Mal came in. He couldn't even achieve that.

 

[dukey]

Yet Stuart walks in and nearly beats Queensland this season, funny that.

Key word is "nearly". It was also Stuart's second successive year as NSW coach, not to mention his past experience in the job. And let's not forget the absence of Lockyer.

I do wonder if everyone actually has such a low opinion of Bellamy, or if you're all just reflexively disagreeing with AP.

 

[GCBRONCO]

Key word is "nearly". It was also Stuart's second successive year as NSW coach, not to mention his past experience in the job. And let's not forget the absence of Lockyer.

I do wonder if everyone actually has such a low opinion of Bellamy, or if you're all just reflexively disagreeing with AP.

Vautin walks in, no experience as a rep coach (was he even a club coach?) has the worst side in SOO history on paper and wins 3-0 first season of coaching a SOO side. Yes Lockyer was absent this season, but wasn't he also absent during the Bellamy coaching era?

As for having a low opinion of Bellamy, quite the opposite I think his a great coach at club level he doesn't have to prove that to me, but his still yet to prove his got it at rep level.

 

[dukey]

Vautin walks in, no experience as a rep coach (was he even a club coach?) has the worst side in SOO history on paper and wins 3-0 first season of coaching a SOO side. Yes Lockyer was absent this season, but wasn't he also absent during the Bellamy coaching era?

So by that metric, Paul Vautin is the greatest coach in rugby league history?
Lockyer was out for one of Bellamy's seasons, but the side was still hamstrung by the NSW selectors. Remember it wasn't until Ricky returned to the job that the coach had full control over the side chosen. Take a look at the sides he had; each position was like a revolving door. I remember that we had Wallace and Campese as our halves, and the selectors swore they'd stick with them through thick and thin and let them grow into the pairing of the future, then Campese was dropped in favour of Barrett (sigh).

 

[Ari Gold]

Mal has won all those origins and frankly he was a pretty ordinary coach at the Raiders. Coaches can't do much with teams in a week anyway. I think it's all pretty redundant. I mean, there's been a lot of talk about a new coach and not once have I seen anyone suggest Mal as an awesome option.

 

[Anonymous person]

Yet Stuart walks in and nearly beats Queensland this season, funny that, Bellamy had a number of seasons at the very least to get NSW competitive and this is during a period where Queensland was still rebuilding after NSW dominated by and large since 2000 until Mal came in. He couldn't even achieve that.

Bellamy started with NSW in 2008. that year they won 1, lost 1, then lost the decider by 6 points after being even at 70 minutes. not really much different to this years result, which was Stuarts second year.

i also wouldnt say that QLD were "rebuilding" in 2008 - they had won the previous 2 series. if that is "rebuilding", when they had mostly the same team, i dont know what a "stable" team is.

Craig Bellamy was also coaching the Storm full-time along with his origin coaching role. Stuart and Meninga werent.

 

[Jeba]

the funny thing is that the next year after that failed experiment, Bennett selected Hunt at halfback for the Broncos where yet again he was horrible.

That was Henjak.

 

[Anonymous person]

That was Henjak.

we're both wrong actually haha - Henjak wasnt our coach then, i got the origin year wrong. i was thinking hunt played five-eighth in a game in 06 but it wasnt actually until 08. Bennett played Hunt at halfback for the start of the 2007 season though.

which makes his selection in the halves in the origin in 2008 all the more baffling.

 

[m1c]

I wonder why Slater has never been tried in the halves... inferior play-making ability?

 

[GCBRONCO]

Bellamy started with NSW in 2008. that year they won 1, lost 1, then lost the decider by 6 points after being even at 70 minutes. not really much different to this years result, which was Stuarts second year.

i also wouldnt say that QLD were "rebuilding" in 2008 - they had won the previous 2 series. if that is "rebuilding", when they had mostly the same team, i dont know what a "stable" team is.

Craig Bellamy was also coaching the Storm full-time along with his origin coaching role. Stuart and Meninga werent.

I didn't say Queensland were rebuilding in 2008 maybe you misunderstood what I meant, anyway they were rebuilding since the end of the 2000 series and had introduced many new players since that timeframe for many seasons till Meninga took charge, Queensland were struggling to keep up with NSW largely till Mal came in, between 2000 and 2005 Queensland won one series and drew another, NSW on the otherhand won 4 series with 3 of those in a row from 2003 and 2005 who was dominate during that period AP?

And Dukey no that doesn't make Vautin the best coach in the world or ever, hell I wouldn't want Vautin near the Broncos or the Maroons anytime soon, 1996 - 1997 proves thats, my point is a nuffie can come in with a situation far worse then Bellamy has ever had to face and still get on top. Bellamy who is a proven coach at club level underachieved with the talent he had not over not just a season but several, this is a coach rated as being the best at getting the best out of players who are either not rated, out of form or underrated, hasn't state of origin also shown that the underdogs can also have their day?

At the end of the day I would actually really like to see what Bellamy is capable of achieving at rep status, all I feel is he has underachieved compared to what his capable at club level, I hardly see how thats unfair. Hell Bennett is one of the best coaches of all time, but I'd be lying if I didn't say he didn't underachieve as a coach at both levels of the club, something I personally have no problem with admitting even as a diehard Bennett fan.

 

[OXY-351]

hahaha so you can list 1 match where inglis was quiet and say that it was 100% because of the oppositions coaching?

And you can't say it wasn't because of the opposition coaching. You're making out like it's impossible to do, so I would have thought only one example would be needed to prove that it is possible. The fact of the matter is that Bennett did have a game plan to shut Inglis down, Berrigan executed it perfectly and Inglis had a quiet game. Maybe it's just a coincidence, but you'd have to assume the game plan had something to do with it. One thing I am sure of is if it was Bellamy who came up with it, you'd be saying it was a coaching masterstroke.

and again, the point went completely over your head. ill reiterate:

"i was saying just because someone lost doesnt mean their coaches coaching ability isnt still the best. "

i didnt compare a rugby league coaches influence to a running coaches influence. i was merely using it in the context of "usain bolt was always going to win, and so was QLD, regardless of what the opposition coach does". again - there were 4 almost guaranteed future immortals in the one team for most of the series' that bellamy coached, along with another possible in inglis (who is also the all time record try scorer in state of origin and still has 5+ years of his career left). i think youre purposely under rating the QLD team to push your "bellamy isnt a good coach" opinion.

No, I didn't miss your point. I understood what you were trying to get at completely, but I don't think it was a good anology.

Yes, QLD were more than likely to win those matches, as was Usain Bolt the gold medal in the 100m. The huge difference is that a coach in rugby league can have a lot more influence over the result than a coach of a sprinter, due to the nature of the two sports. More influence = more blame for a loss. If you don't understand why that makes your anlogy a bad one, then perhaps you don't understand the game as much as you portray.

I'm not underating the strength of the QLD side at all. I think you're right when you say it is probably the best team of individuals ever assembled in the history of the game. It doesn't mean they can't be, and couldn't have been, beaten though. Ricky Stuart came closer to beating QLD than Bellamy ever did. I actually rate Bellamy as a coach, and was surprised he didn't put on a better showing in his origin tenure. Maybe Bellamy is just lucky that Cam Smith is at the storm to help run the show.

lol at you accusing someone of slanting their argument to suit their agenda.

 

[Big Pete]

Jeba's right, Henjak did select him in the halves after the 08 series. Then the Broncos got flogged by the biggest margin in their history :laugh:.

Let it not be forgotten however, that one of Mal's biggest and best decisions was starting Hunt over Slater to 'protect' Billy and get the most out of Karmichaels kamikaze kick returns.

Also we can't forget that Bellamy still lost the decider to a side that had Hunt at five eigth for over 3/4's of the game. That's just down right embarrassing.

His biggest failing was that he didn't have enough control over NSW and didn't have the foresight that Ricky did. I know Ricky didn't win, but the Blues look in much better shape heading into 2013, than they did heading into 2011.

Bellamy was the guy who played Josh Morris & Jamal Idris off the bench. Who continually selected nuffy Storm players like Turner, Quinn, Cross (ex. Storm at the time but still) & White (but he knocked out Price!). Who thought the best way to 'build for the future' was to drop Campese after one game and bring in Barrett, then he dropped Wallace for Kimmorley! etc. etc.

He was just plain bad as coach.

 

[Jeba]

I wonder, if these rumours about Bellamy quitting as the Storm coach soon are true, if he'd give Origin coaching another crack as a full-time gig. Would be interesting to see how he'd go. Hopefully he'd fail.

 

[Anonymous person]

You all seem to be overlooking one big thing - Bellamy was a part time now coach. He came in at the same time as the players. He coached them for 3 weeks a year. Stuart was a full time new coach, the first they've had.

You're also overlooking the fact that in 2008 we had thurston/slater/smith as 24 year olds at the top of their game at the time. Now they're all pushing 30. Lockyer was out of form in 2011 too yet was still chosen. So Ricky Stuart was a full time coach and came up against a team full of superstars that are in the latter stages of their career, versus Bellamy the part time coach against a team of superstars at the top of their game in the prime years of a footballers career age wise.

Big Peter - Jeba's wrong too, because Bennett played hunt at halfback for the first 3 or 4 rounds of 07 and Bennett said at the time that it was for the long term. That was before henjak played him there, obviously. You're also saying that Bellamy chose the new team he wanted he didn't. Only since Stuart has the nsw coach had that much choice, and its because he's a full time coach.

GC - I'm not sure what 2000-2005 has to do with Bellamy coaching in 2008, when QLD were well and truly established as a champion team also full of champion players?

 

[dukey]

And Dukey no that doesn't make Vautin the best coach in the world or ever, hell I wouldn't want Vautin near the Broncos or the Maroons anytime soon, 1996 - 1997 proves thats, my point is a nuffie can come in with a situation far worse then Bellamy has ever had to face and still get on top.

Doesn't that in itself show how arbitrary rep football can be? If Vautin's successes as a rep coach aren't enough to cement his reputation, why would Bellamy's failings in the same role be enough reason to tear him down?