Melbourne Storm and the great celery hat debate

[Big Pete]

Well aside from all the other inaccuracies & mistakes you've made in this thread your spiel on Queensland in 00/01 was wrong. Granted, my issue is mostly semantics, Bennett didn't so much 'dump' the players he did rather they were unavailable to him (eg. Rogers & Ikin were injured, Carroll, J. Smith, Lam ESL etc. etc.) but the maths was wrong too - he didn't dump 'three quaters' of the squad.

Then of course was your distorted depiction of NSW circa 06-10. The reality is, after 3 successive defeats, a lot was made of preventing a 4th consecutive series loss & changes needed to be made, changes Bellamy didn't make. Blues can be deluded, but they weren't drinking THAT much of Craig's kool-aid.

But really I was just cutting to the chase. If Craig is as brilliant as you think he is, then why didn't he assume more responsibility and make the appropriate changes? Being a 'part-time' coach doesn't absolve him from having one of the worst Origin records of all time.

Looking back, the best answer you gave was that he risked losing 2 straight series. The funny thing is, he tried the approach in 09 and didn't stick with it. Remember how NSW were supposed to be building for the future? Then they thought it'd be a great idea to dump Campese & Wallace for Barrett & Kimmorley by the end of the series. :laugh:

 

[Steve Ward]

Go the storm. I can't stand the dogs. There fans are sh**

 

[Anonymous person]

but the maths was wrong too - he didn't dump 'three quaters' of the squad.

10 debutants in 01. 10 out of 17. Now you're just being stupid

But really I was just cutting to the chase. If Craig is as brilliant as you think he is, then why didn't he assume more responsibility and make the appropriate changes? Being a 'part-time' coach doesn't absolve him from having one of the worst Origin records of all time.

More responsibility? Like what? He wasn't going to give up coaching the storm. He couldn't sack the selectors. He gets given a team and has 1 week before game day to coach them. QLD learned that having a full time coach yielded significantly better results, but nsw hadnt cottoned on just yet. Cant blame bellamy for that. And now we're back to his record - so that makes mail meanings the greatest coach ever if we're using their records as ammo. Tough luck Bennett I suppose?

Remember how NSW were supposed to be building for the future? Then they thought it'd be a great idea to dump Campese & Wallace for Barrett & Kimmorley by the end of the series. :laugh:

You don't have to tell me how dumb their SELECTORS were. Bellamy isn't a selector though.

I think it comes down to the fact that Bellamy isn't the type of coach that can come in for 3 weeks a year and change a team. Not many coaches can, especially when given limited power to do so. Bellamy a strength is as a week in week out coach, conditioning players to roles and drilling them into their heads.

 

[Big Pete]

10 debutants in 01. 10 out of 17.

That still isn't three quaters.

Besides, the onus was on the 2000 squad - they were the only players who could be 'dumped' after all. 13 of 21 players didn't feature in the 01 series, that equates to roughly 62%.

More responsibility? Like what? He wasn't going to give up coaching the storm. He couldn't sack the selectors. He gets given a team and has 1 week before game day to coach them. QLD learned that having a full time coach yielded significantly better results, but nsw hadnt cottoned on just yet. Cant blame bellamy for that. And now we're back to his record - so that makes mail meanings the greatest coach ever if we're using their records as ammo. Tough luck Bennett I suppose?

Bennett managed to make significant changes despite coaching the defending premiers. Who says he couldn't sack the selectors or make the other changes Wayne did?

If Mal managed to win 7 premierships on top of his Origin record then yes. As it stands, one could argue Mal is the greatest Origin coach and they'd have a damn good case.

I think it comes down to the fact that Bellamy isn't the type of coach that can come in for 3 weeks a year and change a team. Not many coaches can, especially when given limited power to do so. Bellamy a strength is as a week in week out coach, conditioning players to roles and drilling them into their heads.

Agreed, he just doesn't have the versatility to adjust to rep. footy. No real shame in that, especially if Bellamy wins his first premiership on the weekend (which I hope he does).

As it stands, his Origin record is a black mark in his career and needs to be acknowledged.

 

[Anonymous person]

That still isn't three quaters.

Besides, the onus was on the 2000 squad - they were the only players who could be 'dumped' after all. 13 of 21 players didn't feature in the 01 series, that equates to roughly 62%.

like i said, now youre just being stupid. arguing over 10/17 not being ~12.8/17 is ridiculously pedantic and childish. if you took "dumped 3/4 of the team" as a literal "for every 4 players in the team they dumped 3 of them", and then have a go at me for it, im sorry but thats just pathetic.

Bennett managed to make significant changes despite coaching the defending premiers. Who says he couldn't sack the selectors or make the other changes Wayne did?

Who says he could have though? like i said, when bennett came in at the end of 2000 origin was "dead". over. kaput. the QLD team NEEDED significant changes. when Bellamy came in to NSW no such thing was needed. the previous season had been a very close loss. over the whole series NSW actually scored more points than QLD (42 vs 39) and they convincingly won game 3. sacking the selectors wouldve been stupid at the time. and rightly or wrongly, probably rightly at the time, Bellamy didnt hold - and still doesnt - anywhere near as much weight as wayne bennett does. if bennett went to the QRL and said "i need this team, not the team the selectors want to give me" they would do that. Bellamy? i dont think they would have back then.

If Mal managed to win 7 premierships on top of his Origin record then yes. As it stands, one could argue Mal is the greatest Origin coach and they'd have a damn good case.

mal is the best origin coach ever IMO because he gets his players to perform and thats pretty much what an origin coach needs to do. they dont need to drill players how to tackle or how to run a second man play because these guys are the best of the best. what he needs to do is get them mentally ready and to instill a team mentality where they want to win for each other.

Agreed, he just doesn't have the versatility to adjust to rep. footy. No real shame in that, especially if Bellamy wins his first premiership on the weekend (which I hope he does).

As it stands, his Origin record is a black mark in his career and needs to be acknowledged.

i wouldnt say he doesnt have the versatility to adjust to rep footy, id say that his proven effective coaching style isnt something that can be taught in 3 weeks a year split up over 6 weeks with players going back to their regular coaches in between. thats not a slight against him at all. origin coaching is a whole other kettle of fish. if he was the fulltime NSW coach, with squad selection ability, im sure he would do much better - especially if he wasnt against a team featuring Smith/Slater/Thurston/Lockyer/Inglis/Folau/Cronk.

i wouldnt call it a black mark as they werent really expected to win anyway. the QLD team was just too good both on paper and on form.

 

[Big Pete]

like i said, now youre just being stupid. arguing over 10/17 not being ~12.8/17 is ridiculously pedantic and childish. if you took "dumped 3/4 of the team" as a literal "for every 4 players in the team they dumped 3 of them", and then have a go at me for it, im sorry but thats just pathetic.

That wasn't the only reason I decided to just cut to the chase. Still, I hope you enjoyed the taste of your own medicine.

Who says he could have though?

Origin coaches have a large say in the organisation on how things are run on the field and off of it.

like i said, when bennett came in at the end of 2000 origin was "dead". over. kaput. the QLD team NEEDED significant changes. when Bellamy came in to NSW no such thing was needed. the previous season had been a very close loss. over the whole series NSW actually scored more points than QLD (42 vs 39) and they convincingly won game 3. sacking the selectors wouldve been stupid at the time. and rightly or wrongly, probably rightly at the time, Bellamy didnt hold - and still doesnt - anywhere near as much weight as wayne bennett does. if bennett went to the QRL and said "i need this team, not the team the selectors want to give me" they would do that. Bellamy? i dont think they would have back then.

I've already addressed this, Bellamy was facing 4 series defeats amidst his tenure, if he was as good a coach he would have used that as leverage to make those necessary changes.

mal is the best origin coach ever IMO because he gets his players to perform and thats pretty much what an origin coach needs to do. they dont need to drill players how to tackle or how to run a second man play because these guys are the best of the best. what he needs to do is get them mentally ready and to instill a team mentality where they want to win for each other.

Not only that but he's facilitated some brilliant tactics and made some bold decisions that paid off big time.

It wasn't as simple as he had Lockyer, Smith, JT, GI & Slater - he helped these players gel & get the best out of them on the field.

i wouldnt call it a black mark as they werent really expected to win anyway.

That doesn't match what you were saying earlier, before Craig was coach NSW were allegedly so close that they even managed to out-score Queensland during the series. They may not have been favourites, but given your earlier insight they weren't far off, in fact, they may have won if they had the 'right' coach.

 

[broncos4life]

like i said, now youre just being stupid. arguing over 10/17 not being ~12.8/17 is ridiculously pedantic and childish. if you took "dumped 3/4 of the team" as a literal "for every 4 players in the team they dumped 3 of them", and then have a go at me for it, im sorry but thats just pathetic.



Who says he could have though? like i said, when bennett came in at the end of 2000 origin was "dead". over. kaput. the QLD team NEEDED significant changes. when Bellamy came in to NSW no such thing was needed. the previous season had been a very close loss. over the whole series NSW actually scored more points than QLD (42 vs 39) and they convincingly won game 3. sacking the selectors wouldve been stupid at the time. and rightly or wrongly, probably rightly at the time, Bellamy didnt hold - and still doesnt - anywhere near as much weight as wayne bennett does. if bennett went to the QRL and said "i need this team, not the team the selectors want to give me" they would do that. Bellamy? i dont think they would have back then.


mal is the best origin coach ever IMO because he gets his players to perform and thats pretty much what an origin coach needs to do. they dont need to drill players how to tackle or how to run a second man play because these guys are the best of the best. what he needs to do is get them mentally ready and to instill a team mentality where they want to win for each other.


i wouldnt say he doesnt have the versatility to adjust to rep footy, id say that his proven effective coaching style isnt something that can be taught in 3 weeks a year split up over 6 weeks with players going back to their regular coaches in between. thats not a slight against him at all. origin coaching is a whole other kettle of fish. if he was the fulltime NSW coach, with squad selection ability, im sure he would do much better - especially if he wasnt against a team featuring Smith/Slater/Thurston/Lockyer/Inglis/Folau/Cronk.

i wouldnt call it a black mark as they werent really expected to win anyway. the QLD team was just too good both on paper and on form.

So to sum up AP's point of view - if bellemy has success it is completely his doing by taking a rag tag group of nuffies and turning them into world beaters. If he loses its the players fault, the other team were unbeatable, god himself could not have won that game.

 

[Anonymous person]

Origin coaches have a large say in the organisation on how things are run on the field and off of it.

do you say that from your origin coaching experience? do you know that as a fact in regards to how the NSW State of Origin team is run?

I've already addressed this, Bellamy was facing 4 series defeats amidst his tenure, if he was as good a coach he would have used that as leverage to make those necessary changes.

again, you dont know that he didnt try. the NSW selectors have to shoulder a large percentage of the blame for their team losing constantly, and Bellamy isnt a selector. He can only work with what hes got, and having something like 15 different halves combinations over the last 7 series shows just how stupid the selectors are.

That doesn't match what you were saying earlier, before Craig was coach NSW were allegedly so close that they even managed to out-score Queensland during the series. They may not have been favourites, but given your earlier insight they weren't far off, in fact, they may have won if they had the 'right' coach.

they were close, yes. but QLD were favourites, rightly so, and they were never going to lose. having a different coach in 2008 wouldnt have stopped QLD absolutely destroying NSW in game 2 30-0.

and dont think that just because i pointed out that NSW came close score wise to beating us in 2007 that i think they were actually close to beating us. scorelines dont always show the whole picture. i was merely pointing out that the fact that the scoreboard was close meant that NSW were never going to bring in sweeping wholesale changes.

So to sum up AP's point of view - if bellemy has success it is completely his doing by taking a rag tag group of nuffies and turning them into world beaters. If he loses its the players fault, the other team were unbeatable, god himself could not have won that game.

not at all. at state of origin level it is MUCH less about the coach than it is the players. at NRL level its a different story.

replace "bellamy" with "bennett" and you have most of BHQs point of view though.

 

[m1c]

Bennett has 7 premierships - Bellamy has none? I know which one I'd believe was capable of bringing a rag tag bunch of nuffies together...

 

[Big Pete]

The coach has a big say in selections, allegedly Craig admitted as much when he came clean about omitting Gallen from Game 1 2010 earlier this year.

And like I said, by 09 the situation was dire and nothing was done. That's on Craig.

 

[Anonymous person]

The coach is apart of the selection panel and has a big say in who's selected.

And like I said, by 09 the situation was dire and nothing was done. That's on Craig.

8 debutants for game 1, with 14 of the 17 players selected in game 1 2008 dropped......yet nothing was done? they brought in campese who many had been calling for. they brought in farah who many considered the second best hooker in the game. they brought in jennings and glen stewart. hardly seems like nothing.

this was against a QLD team that had 13 players with 6 or more origin games under their belt btw. it was also the entire current australian backline. but yeah, its all on bellamy that they couldnt beat basically the current australian team, with nearly all of them having 2 origin series or more under their belt.

and how much of a say did Bellamy have? got anything to backup your point of him having a big say? im sure they take what he asks for under advisement, but i dont for one second think that he wouldve been behind some of their dreadful choices, especially in the halves.

also, around 2009 everyone was calling for the NSW selectors to be fired because of their stupid decisions. they werent calling for bellamy to be fired though:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/lhqnews/...s-say-stalwarts/2009/06/20/1244918233387.html

 

[m1c]

All I know is we're discussing two instances involving an Origin team having to make wholesale changes in order to remain competitive. Bennett in '01, and Bellamy in 09. Who came out on top there, AP?

 

[Big Pete]

I was referring to behind the scenes.

I'd addressed the 09 on-field selections plenty of times. They did do something, they (Craig and selectors) mucked up big time.

Already explained, the story about him not wanting Gallen in the side came out this year.

In fact, the only time it was reported that Craig didn't get his way was Game 3 2010, when he wasn't going to be future coach and NSWRL wanted to build for the future.

 

[Anonymous person]

All I know is we're discussing two instances involving an Origin team having to make wholesale changes in order to remain competitive. Bennett in '01, and Bellamy in 09. Who came out on top there, AP?

sigh

who was up against the best team that origin has ever seen m1c? which team in 09 had the 1-10 of the current Australian team in it?

In fact, the only time it was reported that Craig didn't get his way was Game 3 2010, when he wasn't going to be future coach and NSWRL wanted to build for the future.

oh so because it wasnt reported that he didnt get 100% the team he wanted, he must have? gotcha. f#$% fact, assumptions rule!

 

[Big Pete]

From the article I'm referring to...

While the NSWRL selection panel has overriding power in picking Origin teams, it is a rarity that the coach is not granted, by and large, the squad he desires.


But the panel is in a unique situation. The selectors have decided to - to a degree - look to the future; one which is almost certain to not include the coach. Bellamy will be desperate to ensure his tenure does not end on a loss, while the selectors have been under pressure to build a team for next year and beyond, although it is clear their jobs are also on the line.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...-right-to-go-20100630-zmt6.html#ixzz27jCM3yuO
​

 

[m1c]

sigh

who was up against the best team that origin has ever seen m1c? which team in 09 had the 1-10 of the current Australian team in it?

Just did a quick ratio of QLD:NSW past, current or future Australian reps

Origin 01 - QLD had .62 Aus reps for every 1 of NSWs... in fact the entire NSW 17 bar Hughes were Aus reps!!

Origin 09 - NSW had .92 Aus reps for every 1 of QLDs.. only 14 of the QLD squad had played for Aus :(

...Since you seem enjoy using absolute rep players as a marker :)

 

[Porthoz]

Which part about returning to the topic did you guys not understand?

Let it go!

 

[m1c]

Can't we have an AP v the world thread? Would solve a lot of problems :)