Queensland Bulls Discussion - 2020/21

[Sproj]

Name another decent off-spinner Australia has produced in the last few decades? It's not hard to be the best when there's no competition.

The names you've mentioned there just demonstrate that we haven't had better alternatives (I would argue SOK was and his record reflects it, but I take your point). If you cast your mind back to when Lyon was selected he had a FC average around 35 and it wasn't until about 2 years ago that his test average came down below 33. Neither of those averages are anything special. In fact, you could make the argument that his numbers are not even as good as the likes of Graeme Swann - ask yourself if you rated him?

Many will argue Lyon bowls incredibly consistently and doesn't concede runs. If he's conceding so few runs then why wouldn't his average be lower? Look at a bowler like SOK for proof that economical bowling keeps your average down. If Lyon is a strike bowler than his numbers don't stack up to world class spinners like Ashwin.

Another point I'll make is that Lyon has been incredibly fortunate to be bowling in rotation with some of the greatest pace bowlers we have seen. Even if you exclude the current crop he had the likes of Harris, Siddle, Johnson etc. putting immense pressure at the other end. Lyon is often the target of oppositions batting line ups because sides see him as the clear weakness once they get through our quicks. I'd argue given batsmen go after him that he should actually be taking more wickets than he does.

I was okay with Lyon when we had no alternatives but I really became disillusioned when he choked in the Stokes test last Ashes. Now that we have other options that have better records than Lyon had when he was picked, why don't we give them a chance?

Being the "greatest" or holding records in a category of bowling that Australia has never been known for (or good at) isn't justification for why he should be picked.

Did you even watch Swepson yesterday though? Yes he took three late wickets but his first 50 overs were wicketless and he was spraying a few because he was extremely (and understandably) tired. And this is just after three matches with more space between them than many tests. Other than Swepson, there isn't anyone else in the picture, even Holland has looked pedestrian at test level.

Lyon has succeeded even in India, a place where even the great Shane Warne struggled. As for that Stokes test, yeah he chocked badly with the run out but let's not forget he DID get him out LBW but the umps decided he didn't like the look of a plumb one and his keeper captain had already blown a challenge on an absolute shocker a short time before.

No bowler is able to bowl their team to victory every time and the fact Lyon has been able to do it on a number of occasions speaks volumes for him.

Also, if we are going on the logic he only looks good because of the pace bowlers around him, what does that mean for Warne? Was he only the greatest spinner of all time because he had McGrath, Gillespie, Lee, Kasper and Bichel around him?

Lyon is one of the first players picked and rightly so. If Swepson can keep up his start to the season in the back end of the Shield, he will be the second spinner but he won't be replacing Lyon, not until he at least backs it up again next season.

 

[The True King]

Did you even watch Swepson yesterday though? Yes he took three late wickets but his first 50 overs were wicketless and he was spraying a few because he was extremely (and understandably) tired. And this is just after three matches with more space between them than many tests. Other than Swepson, there isn't anyone else in the picture, even Holland has looked pedestrian at test level.

Lyon has succeeded even in India, a place where even the great Shane Warne struggled. As for that Stokes test, yeah he chocked badly with the run out but let's not forget he DID get him out LBW but the umps decided he didn't like the look of a plumb one and his keeper captain had already blown a challenge on an absolute shocker a short time before.

No bowler is able to bowl their team to victory every time and the fact Lyon has been able to do it on a number of occasions speaks volumes for him.

Also, if we are going on the logic he only looks good because of the pace bowlers around him, what does that mean for Warne? Was he only the greatest spinner of all time because he had McGrath, Gillespie, Lee, Kasper and Bichel around him?

Lyon is one of the first players picked and rightly so. If Swepson can keep up his start to the season in the back end of the Shield, he will be the second spinner but he won't be replacing Lyon, not until he at least backs it up again next season.

No I didn't. I have seen plenty of Lyon over the years though and given his experience and "quality" he shouldn't be being outperformed by other spinners in FC cricket like we're currently seeing.

Warne's numbers in India were strange, it might have something to do with the quality of the Indian batsman back then but who knows (Azharuddin, Tendulkar, VVS, Dravid, Sehwag, Ganguly etc weren't bad!). SOK on the same tour as Lyon averaged 23.26 with the ball in India so it's not a case of Lyon being the only Australian bowler to have had success over there.

I never made the comparison to Warne but I think it says a LOT that Warne's average in both FC and Test cricket was around the 25/26 mark. Yes he bowled in tandem with some great bowlers in tests too but his numbers are elite and stack up against anyone's. He replicated remarkable averages over a long period of time at both levels while Lyon's FC and Test numbers are basically average (still bowling with great quicks at the other end).

I have no issue with Lyon being in the side for now but I think the conversation about replacing him is a valid one we should be having. I also think he's overrated. So I will go back to the question I asked last post - do you think Lyon is a better bowler than Graeme Swann?

 

[Sproj]

No I didn't. I have seen plenty of Lyon over the years though and given his experience and "quality" he shouldn't be being outperformed by other spinners in FC cricket like we're currently seeing.

Warne's numbers in India were strange, it might have something to do with the quality of the Indian batsman back then but who knows (Azharuddin, Tendulkar, VVS, Dravid, Sehwag, Ganguly etc weren't bad!). SOK on the same tour as Lyon averaged 23.26 with the ball in India so it's not a case of Lyon being the only Australian bowler to have had success over there.

I never made the comparison to Warne but I think it says a LOT that Warne's average in both FC and Test cricket was around the 25/26 mark. Yes he bowled in tandem with some great bowlers in tests too but his numbers are elite and stack up against anyone's. He replicated remarkable averages over a long period of time at both levels while Lyon's FC and Test numbers are basically average (still bowling with great quicks at the other end).

I have no issue with Lyon being in the side for now but I think the conversation about replacing him is a valid one we should be having. I also think he's overrated. So I will go back to the question I asked last post - do you think Lyon is a better bowler than Graeme Swann?

I'm not really sure why the question of whether he is better than Swann or not is an issue, Swann was a very good bowler, who like Lyon, got better as he got older. So in simple answer to your question, yes I think Lyon is better than Swann and this is a good effort because I also thought Swann was really good.

 

[Unbreakable]

Not gonna read the last page of essays, but I gather it's about Lyon.

I'm in the camp of him being in the team until he doesn't want to be in the team anymore, he's come up clutch for us so many times, there's rarely a test series where he doesn't leave an imprint on 1-2 of the games.

 

[The True King]

I'm not really sure why the question of whether he is better than Swann or not is an issue, Swann was a very good bowler, who like Lyon, got better as he got older. So in simple answer to your question, yes I think Lyon is better than Swann and this is a good effort because I also thought Swann was really good.

They have comparable records and Swann certainly isn't England's greatest ever off spinner.

Swann was very good, as is Lyon, but neither of them would be in the conversation with the sub-continent greats or Warne.

My issue with Lyon and the 'greatest' tag is that he is far from the greatest and his records are the natural result of playing so many tests (again no other alternatives because SOK's issues). He's decent yeah but I feel when we look back at Lyon's career in a few years we will all agree he was very overrated.

 

[Unbreakable]

They have comparable records and Swann certainly isn't England's greatest ever off spinner.

Swann was very good, as is Lyon, but neither of them would be in the conversation with the sub-continent greats or Warne.

My issue with Lyon and the 'greatest' tag is that he is far from the greatest and his records are the natural result of playing so many tests (again no other alternatives because SOK's issues). He's decent yeah but I feel when we look back at Lyon's career in a few years we will all agree he was very overrated.

Vettori - 108 tests (28,814 balls) / 362 wickets
Singh - 103 tests (28,580 balls) / 417 wickets
Herath - 93 tests (25,993 balls) / 433 wickets
Lyon - 96 tests (24,568 balls) / 390 wickets
Ashwin - 71 tests (19,586 balls) / 365 wickets

The difference is pretty negligible between Lyon and the best finger spinners of all-time (minus Murali, obviously)

 

[Blindside Bronco]

I think your username says it all.

Mmmmm I wonder what your name says about you...... ASS! Yep that's it

 

[Blindside Bronco]

Vettori - 108 tests (28,814 balls) / 362 wickets
Singh - 103 tests (28,580 balls) / 417 wickets
Herath - 93 tests (25,993 balls) / 433 wickets
Lyon - 96 tests (24,568 balls) / 390 wickets
Ashwin - 71 tests (19,586 balls) / 365 wickets

The difference is pretty negligible between Lyon and the best finger spinners of all-time (minus Murali, obviously)

Do you have the stats where it's show how many runs were score from him?

 

[Unbreakable]

Do you have the stats where it's show how many runs were score from him?

Average is the best stat for that, it's how many runs on average are scored against each bowler per wicket. Lower equals better obviously.

Murali - 22.72
Ashwin - 25.43
Herath - 28.07
Lyon - 31.58
Singh - 32.46
Vettori - 34.36

 

[Blindside Bronco]

Average is the best stat for that, it's how many runs on average are scored against each bowler per wicket. Lower equals better obviously.

Murali - 22.72
Ashwin - 25.43
Herath - 28.07
Lyon - 31.58
Singh - 32.46
Vettori - 34.36

So definitely not the greatest but ok. Wasn't his a lot higher like 35 or 36 probably because they keep selecting him he get more chances to rectify his poor average. I don't think averages paint a accurate picture for bowling or batting. Anyway no matter what I still don't like Lyon but I'll cheer him on when he is bowling well for Australia and swear the house down when he's not, which I remember it happening more often than not.

 

[The True King]

Average is the best stat for that, it's how many runs on average are scored against each bowler per wicket. Lower equals better obviously.

Murali - 22.72
Ashwin - 25.43
Herath - 28.07
Lyon - 31.58
Singh - 32.46
Vettori - 34.36

I wouldn't put Vettori or Singh in any 'great' list, aside from test caps. Obviously good players and had longevity but certainly not greats. Singh wasn't even the best Indian spin bowler of his generation.

Bottom line is if you lay the averages out of spinners who have played 40+ tests in the last 20 years, I'd be surprised if Lyon's average is even in the top 15.

 

[Unbreakable]

I wouldn't put Vettori or Singh in any 'great' list, aside from test caps. Obviously good players and had longevity but certainly not greats. Singh wasn't even the best Indian spin bowler of his generation.

Bottom line is if you lay the averages out of spinners who have played 40+ tests in the last 20 years, I'd be surprised if Lyon's average is even in the top 15.

I just picked finger spinners on the top lists for most wickets in test matches mate, it's hard to argue against many finger spinners being considered better than any of the guys I listed. Longevity and wickets matter.

 

[Sproj]

And what these stats show is that even if you don't rate Lyon or think he is that great, he is at worst a very good finger spinner, at best one of the greats. I suspect he will actually be rated higher once his career is done, not worse.

 

[Socnorb]

Lyon plays half of his test in Australian conditions.
Lyon is awesome.
We're lucky to have him.
To recap, Lyon is the best we've ever had

 

[The True King]

Spin bowlers with 200+ test wickets in the last 20 years. Sorted by average.

Name	Test Caps	Wickets	Average	Economy
Murali	133	800	22.72	2.47
Jadeja	49	213	24.62	2.43
Warne	145	708	25.41	2.65
Ashwin	71	365	25.43	2.84
Herath	131	434	28.08	2.80
MacGill	44	208	29.02	3.22
Kumble	132	619	29.65	2.49
Mushtaq	49	208	29.83	2.64
Swann	60	255	29.96	2.98
Shah	42	244	30.66	3.22
Al Hasan	56	210	31.12	3.01
Lyon	97	390	31.58	3.00
Harbhajan	103	417	32.46	2.84
Vettori	113	362	34.36	2.59
Kaneria	61	261	34.79	3.07

 

[Sproj]

Spin bowlers with 200+ test wickets in the last 20 years. Sorted by average.

Name	Test Caps	Wickets	Average	Economy
Murali	133	800	22.72	2.47
Jadeja	49	213	24.62	2.43
Warne	145	708	25.41	2.65
Ashwin	71	365	25.43	2.84
Herath	131	434	28.08	2.80
MacGill	44	208	29.02	3.22
Kumble	132	619	29.65	2.49
Mushtaq	49	208	29.83	2.64
Swann	60	255	29.96	2.98
Shah	42	244	30.66	3.22
Al Hasan	56	210	31.12	3.01
Lyon	97	390	31.58	3.00
Harbhajan	103	417	32.46	2.84
Vettori	113	362	34.36	2.59
Kaneria	61	261	34.79	3.07

So yeah, he is up there with the very best.

 

[The True King]

So yeah, he is up there with the very best.

By that logic I guess Alistair Cook is up with the likes of Tendulkar, Ponting, Sangakkara and Kallis.

I don't know how you can regard a ~5+ run per wicket difference in average as being close to as good.

 

[Bongo]

Lyon plays half of his test in Australian conditions.
Lyon is awesome.
We're lucky to have him.
To recap, Lyon is the best we've ever had

Yes, Playing in Australian conditions as opposed to mainly subcontinent does impact average. Lyon in my view has massively improved the last 3 or 4 years and is a very good spin option. I would prefer a good leggie over a finger spinner but he is solid for what he is