Cricket Queensland Bulls Discussion - 2020/21

The True King

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I'm not really sure why the question of whether he is better than Swann or not is an issue, Swann was a very good bowler, who like Lyon, got better as he got older. So in simple answer to your question, yes I think Lyon is better than Swann and this is a good effort because I also thought Swann was really good.
They have comparable records and Swann certainly isn't England's greatest ever off spinner.

Swann was very good, as is Lyon, but neither of them would be in the conversation with the sub-continent greats or Warne.

My issue with Lyon and the 'greatest' tag is that he is far from the greatest and his records are the natural result of playing so many tests (again no other alternatives because SOK's issues). He's decent yeah but I feel when we look back at Lyon's career in a few years we will all agree he was very overrated.
 

Unbreakable

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They have comparable records and Swann certainly isn't England's greatest ever off spinner.

Swann was very good, as is Lyon, but neither of them would be in the conversation with the sub-continent greats or Warne.

My issue with Lyon and the 'greatest' tag is that he is far from the greatest and his records are the natural result of playing so many tests (again no other alternatives because SOK's issues). He's decent yeah but I feel when we look back at Lyon's career in a few years we will all agree he was very overrated.

Vettori - 108 tests (28,814 balls) / 362 wickets
Singh - 103 tests (28,580 balls) / 417 wickets
Herath - 93 tests (25,993 balls) / 433 wickets
Lyon - 96 tests (24,568 balls) / 390 wickets
Ashwin - 71 tests (19,586 balls) / 365 wickets

The difference is pretty negligible between Lyon and the best finger spinners of all-time (minus Murali, obviously)
 

Blindside

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Vettori - 108 tests (28,814 balls) / 362 wickets
Singh - 103 tests (28,580 balls) / 417 wickets
Herath - 93 tests (25,993 balls) / 433 wickets
Lyon - 96 tests (24,568 balls) / 390 wickets
Ashwin - 71 tests (19,586 balls) / 365 wickets

The difference is pretty negligible between Lyon and the best finger spinners of all-time (minus Murali, obviously)
Do you have the stats where it's show how many runs were score from him?
 

Unbreakable

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Do you have the stats where it's show how many runs were score from him?

Average is the best stat for that, it's how many runs on average are scored against each bowler per wicket. Lower equals better obviously.

Murali - 22.72
Ashwin - 25.43
Herath - 28.07
Lyon - 31.58
Singh - 32.46
Vettori - 34.36
 

Blindside

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Average is the best stat for that, it's how many runs on average are scored against each bowler per wicket. Lower equals better obviously.

Murali - 22.72
Ashwin - 25.43
Herath - 28.07
Lyon - 31.58
Singh - 32.46
Vettori - 34.36
So definitely not the greatest but ok. Wasn't his a lot higher like 35 or 36 probably because they keep selecting him he get more chances to rectify his poor average. I don't think averages paint a accurate picture for bowling or batting. Anyway no matter what I still don't like Lyon but I'll cheer him on when he is bowling well for Australia and swear the house down when he's not, which I remember it happening more often than not.
 

The True King

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Average is the best stat for that, it's how many runs on average are scored against each bowler per wicket. Lower equals better obviously.

Murali - 22.72
Ashwin - 25.43
Herath - 28.07
Lyon - 31.58
Singh - 32.46
Vettori - 34.36

I wouldn't put Vettori or Singh in any 'great' list, aside from test caps. Obviously good players and had longevity but certainly not greats. Singh wasn't even the best Indian spin bowler of his generation.

Bottom line is if you lay the averages out of spinners who have played 40+ tests in the last 20 years, I'd be surprised if Lyon's average is even in the top 15.
 
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Unbreakable

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I wouldn't put Vettori or Singh in any 'great' list, aside from test caps. Obviously good players and had longevity but certainly not greats. Singh wasn't even the best Indian spin bowler of his generation.

Bottom line is if you lay the averages out of spinners who have played 40+ tests in the last 20 years, I'd be surprised if Lyon's average is even in the top 15.

I just picked finger spinners on the top lists for most wickets in test matches mate, it's hard to argue against many finger spinners being considered better than any of the guys I listed. Longevity and wickets matter.
 

Sproj

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And what these stats show is that even if you don't rate Lyon or think he is that great, he is at worst a very good finger spinner, at best one of the greats. I suspect he will actually be rated higher once his career is done, not worse.
 

Socnorb

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Lyon plays half of his test in Australian conditions.
Lyon is awesome.
We're lucky to have him.
To recap, Lyon is the best we've ever had
 

The True King

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Spin bowlers with 200+ test wickets in the last 20 years. Sorted by average.
NameTest CapsWickets AverageEconomy
Murali13380022.722.47
Jadeja4921324.622.43
Warne14570825.412.65
Ashwin7136525.432.84
Herath13143428.082.80
MacGill4420829.023.22
Kumble13261929.652.49
Mushtaq4920829.832.64
Swann6025529.962.98
Shah4224430.663.22
Al Hasan5621031.123.01
Lyon 9739031.583.00
Harbhajan10341732.462.84
Vettori11336234.362.59
Kaneria6126134.793.07
 

Sproj

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Spin bowlers with 200+ test wickets in the last 20 years. Sorted by average.
NameTest CapsWicketsAverageEconomy
Murali13380022.722.47
Jadeja4921324.622.43
Warne14570825.412.65
Ashwin7136525.432.84
Herath13143428.082.80
MacGill4420829.023.22
Kumble13261929.652.49
Mushtaq4920829.832.64
Swann6025529.962.98
Shah4224430.663.22
Al Hasan5621031.123.01
Lyon 9739031.583.00
Harbhajan10341732.462.84
Vettori11336234.362.59
Kaneria6126134.793.07

So yeah, he is up there with the very best.
 

Bongo

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Lyon plays half of his test in Australian conditions.
Lyon is awesome.
We're lucky to have him.
To recap, Lyon is the best we've ever had
Yes, Playing in Australian conditions as opposed to mainly subcontinent does impact average. Lyon in my view has massively improved the last 3 or 4 years and is a very good spin option. I would prefer a good leggie over a finger spinner but he is solid for what he is
 

1910

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I thought the hysteria around the batting masterclass in Adelaide was a bit much so got the runs/wicket stats from the master.

Adelaide Hub- 41.11 runs/wickets
Millennium SS- 31.87
All time SS- 31.70

As I thought I think a correction may be coming if we get away from suburban Adelaide pitches. Poor bowlers.
 

Blindside

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Spin bowlers with 200+ test wickets in the last 20 years. Sorted by average.
NameTest CapsWicketsAverageEconomy
Murali13380022.722.47
Jadeja4921324.622.43
Warne14570825.412.65
Ashwin7136525.432.84
Herath13143428.082.80
MacGill4420829.023.22
Kumble13261929.652.49
Mushtaq4920829.832.64
Swann6025529.962.98
Shah4224430.663.22
Al Hasan5621031.123.01
Lyon 9739031.583.00
Harbhajan10341732.462.84
Vettori11336234.362.59
Kaneria6126134.793.07
3.00 economy and over 30 average. And that only recently improved. Hahahaha Lyon average on his day above average but still overrated.
 

1910

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Lynn last two weekends.

✅ 3 Centuries
✅ 397 runs @ 198.5
✅ 21 Fours, 45 Sixes
✅ S/R: 285
 

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