Cricket Queensland Bulls Discussion - 2020/21

Sproj

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Great bowling from Steketee - hits Scott flush in the grill and then after a break to do the HIA, hits him with the perfect leg cutter to jag back and hit the top of off after pitching on 4th or 5th stump. Absolute gem of a ball.
 

Unbreakable

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Great bowling from Steketee - hits Scott flush in the grill and then after a break to do the HIA, hits him with the perfect leg cutter to jag back and hit the top of off after pitching on 4th or 5th stump. Absolute gem of a ball.

Wouldn't mind a couple more..
 

Sproj

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SA are such a weird team, collapse every first innings and score huge in their second every game so far.
 

Sproj

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Sweppo is certainly the clear number 2 spinner behind Lyon now though, he's gone up a few levels in the last year or three.
 

Blindside

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Yep completely overrated. If any other spinner had been given the chances he has, they would be a hell of a lot better and more consistent than Lyon.
 

Sproj

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I'm not really sure you can say the guy with the best record for an offspinner playing for Australia by FAR is overrated.

I'm also not really sure ANY other spinner could have done better. SOK yeah maybe but he has other external issues. Dan Cullen? Cullen Bailey? Jon Holland? Cameron Boyce? Ashton Agar? Nathan Hauritz? Jason Vampire? Steven Smith (as a spinner)?

Yeah, not so sure on that one.
 

Blindside

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I'm not really sure you can say the guy with the best record for an offspinner playing for Australia by FAR is overrated.

I'm also not really sure ANY other spinner could have done better. SOK yeah maybe but he has other external issues. Dan Cullen? Cullen Bailey? Jon Holland? Cameron Boyce? Ashton Agar? Nathan Hauritz? Jason Vampire? Steven Smith (as a spinner)?

Yeah, not so sure on that one.
Yep I say ANY! Given the chances and training he has had. I would say he has lost us just as many games as he has won us.
 

Fernando

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Lyon is still one of the first picked. With our gun pace attack I think you primarily want a spinner that can keep things tight and bowl long spells and he does that as well as anyone.
 

The True King

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I'm not really sure you can say the guy with the best record for an offspinner playing for Australia by FAR is overrated.

I'm also not really sure ANY other spinner could have done better. SOK yeah maybe but he has other external issues. Dan Cullen? Cullen Bailey? Jon Holland? Cameron Boyce? Ashton Agar? Nathan Hauritz? Jason Vampire? Steven Smith (as a spinner)?

Yeah, not so sure on that one.
Name another decent off-spinner Australia has produced in the last few decades? It's not hard to be the best when there's no competition.

The names you've mentioned there just demonstrate that we haven't had better alternatives (I would argue SOK was and his record reflects it, but I take your point). If you cast your mind back to when Lyon was selected he had a FC average around 35 and it wasn't until about 2 years ago that his test average came down below 33. Neither of those averages are anything special. In fact, you could make the argument that his numbers are not even as good as the likes of Graeme Swann - ask yourself if you rated him?

Many will argue Lyon bowls incredibly consistently and doesn't concede runs. If he's conceding so few runs then why wouldn't his average be lower? Look at a bowler like SOK for proof that economical bowling keeps your average down. If Lyon is a strike bowler than his numbers don't stack up to world class spinners like Ashwin.

Another point I'll make is that Lyon has been incredibly fortunate to be bowling in rotation with some of the greatest pace bowlers we have seen. Even if you exclude the current crop he had the likes of Harris, Siddle, Johnson etc. putting immense pressure at the other end. Lyon is often the target of oppositions batting line ups because sides see him as the clear weakness once they get through our quicks. I'd argue given batsmen go after him that he should actually be taking more wickets than he does.

I was okay with Lyon when we had no alternatives but I really became disillusioned when he choked in the Stokes test last Ashes. Now that we have other options that have better records than Lyon had when he was picked, why don't we give them a chance?

Being the "greatest" or holding records in a category of bowling that Australia has never been known for (or good at) isn't justification for why he should be picked.
 
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Sproj

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Name another decent off-spinner Australia has produced in the last few decades? It's not hard to be the best when there's no competition.

The names you've mentioned there just demonstrate that we haven't had better alternatives (I would argue SOK was and his record reflects it, but I take your point). If you cast your mind back to when Lyon was selected he had a FC average around 35 and it wasn't until about 2 years ago that his test average came down below 33. Neither of those averages are anything special. In fact, you could make the argument that his numbers are not even as good as the likes of Graeme Swann - ask yourself if you rated him?

Many will argue Lyon bowls incredibly consistently and doesn't concede runs. If he's conceding so few runs then why wouldn't his average be lower? Look at a bowler like SOK for proof that economical bowling keeps your average down. If Lyon is a strike bowler than his numbers don't stack up to world class spinners like Ashwin.

Another point I'll make is that Lyon has been incredibly fortunate to be bowling in rotation with some of the greatest pace bowlers we have seen. Even if you exclude the current crop he had the likes of Harris, Siddle, Johnson etc. putting immense pressure at the other end. Lyon is often the target of oppositions batting line ups because sides see him as the clear weakness once they get through our quicks. I'd argue given batsmen go after him that he should actually be taking more wickets than he does.

I was okay with Lyon when we had no alternatives but I really became disillusioned when he choked in the Stokes test last Ashes. Now that we have other options that have better records than Lyon had when he was picked, why don't we give them a chance?

Being the "greatest" or holding records in a category of bowling that Australia has never been known for (or good at) isn't justification for why he should be picked.

Did you even watch Swepson yesterday though? Yes he took three late wickets but his first 50 overs were wicketless and he was spraying a few because he was extremely (and understandably) tired. And this is just after three matches with more space between them than many tests. Other than Swepson, there isn't anyone else in the picture, even Holland has looked pedestrian at test level.

Lyon has succeeded even in India, a place where even the great Shane Warne struggled. As for that Stokes test, yeah he chocked badly with the run out but let's not forget he DID get him out LBW but the umps decided he didn't like the look of a plumb one and his keeper captain had already blown a challenge on an absolute shocker a short time before.

No bowler is able to bowl their team to victory every time and the fact Lyon has been able to do it on a number of occasions speaks volumes for him.

Also, if we are going on the logic he only looks good because of the pace bowlers around him, what does that mean for Warne? Was he only the greatest spinner of all time because he had McGrath, Gillespie, Lee, Kasper and Bichel around him?

Lyon is one of the first players picked and rightly so. If Swepson can keep up his start to the season in the back end of the Shield, he will be the second spinner but he won't be replacing Lyon, not until he at least backs it up again next season.
 

The True King

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Did you even watch Swepson yesterday though? Yes he took three late wickets but his first 50 overs were wicketless and he was spraying a few because he was extremely (and understandably) tired. And this is just after three matches with more space between them than many tests. Other than Swepson, there isn't anyone else in the picture, even Holland has looked pedestrian at test level.

Lyon has succeeded even in India, a place where even the great Shane Warne struggled. As for that Stokes test, yeah he chocked badly with the run out but let's not forget he DID get him out LBW but the umps decided he didn't like the look of a plumb one and his keeper captain had already blown a challenge on an absolute shocker a short time before.

No bowler is able to bowl their team to victory every time and the fact Lyon has been able to do it on a number of occasions speaks volumes for him.

Also, if we are going on the logic he only looks good because of the pace bowlers around him, what does that mean for Warne? Was he only the greatest spinner of all time because he had McGrath, Gillespie, Lee, Kasper and Bichel around him?

Lyon is one of the first players picked and rightly so. If Swepson can keep up his start to the season in the back end of the Shield, he will be the second spinner but he won't be replacing Lyon, not until he at least backs it up again next season.

No I didn't. I have seen plenty of Lyon over the years though and given his experience and "quality" he shouldn't be being outperformed by other spinners in FC cricket like we're currently seeing.

Warne's numbers in India were strange, it might have something to do with the quality of the Indian batsman back then but who knows (Azharuddin, Tendulkar, VVS, Dravid, Sehwag, Ganguly etc weren't bad!). SOK on the same tour as Lyon averaged 23.26 with the ball in India so it's not a case of Lyon being the only Australian bowler to have had success over there.

I never made the comparison to Warne but I think it says a LOT that Warne's average in both FC and Test cricket was around the 25/26 mark. Yes he bowled in tandem with some great bowlers in tests too but his numbers are elite and stack up against anyone's. He replicated remarkable averages over a long period of time at both levels while Lyon's FC and Test numbers are basically average (still bowling with great quicks at the other end).

I have no issue with Lyon being in the side for now but I think the conversation about replacing him is a valid one we should be having. I also think he's overrated. So I will go back to the question I asked last post - do you think Lyon is a better bowler than Graeme Swann?
 
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Sproj

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No I didn't. I have seen plenty of Lyon over the years though and given his experience and "quality" he shouldn't be being outperformed by other spinners in FC cricket like we're currently seeing.

Warne's numbers in India were strange, it might have something to do with the quality of the Indian batsman back then but who knows (Azharuddin, Tendulkar, VVS, Dravid, Sehwag, Ganguly etc weren't bad!). SOK on the same tour as Lyon averaged 23.26 with the ball in India so it's not a case of Lyon being the only Australian bowler to have had success over there.

I never made the comparison to Warne but I think it says a LOT that Warne's average in both FC and Test cricket was around the 25/26 mark. Yes he bowled in tandem with some great bowlers in tests too but his numbers are elite and stack up against anyone's. He replicated remarkable averages over a long period of time at both levels while Lyon's FC and Test numbers are basically average (still bowling with great quicks at the other end).

I have no issue with Lyon being in the side for now but I think the conversation about replacing him is a valid one we should be having. I also think he's overrated. So I will go back to the question I asked last post - do you think Lyon is a better bowler than Graeme Swann?

I'm not really sure why the question of whether he is better than Swann or not is an issue, Swann was a very good bowler, who like Lyon, got better as he got older. So in simple answer to your question, yes I think Lyon is better than Swann and this is a good effort because I also thought Swann was really good.
 

Unbreakable

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Not gonna read the last page of essays, but I gather it's about Lyon.

I'm in the camp of him being in the team until he doesn't want to be in the team anymore, he's come up clutch for us so many times, there's rarely a test series where he doesn't leave an imprint on 1-2 of the games.
 

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