Round 20 - Cowboys vs. Broncos - Pre Match Discussion

[Big Pete]

Hold your horses rna, I wasn't attacking you, I was attacking your point and I already explained why.

Centres don't need A grade passing games. As I pointed out, the best centres in the game don't have them, even GI doesn't have them and as long as they can pass they're fine. Hoffman can and did pass last night - and that's something you didn't even touch on because you know you're wrong.

Give him time, he showed plenty in the centres last night and it's clearly his future position.

 

[Old Mate]

If I read

1. Corey Norman

I'm joining the 'sack Hook' immediately club. No way does he get to represent our club again, not on that effort tonight.

No more excuses, Origin is over. Season is over, time to go out there and just throw the ball around.

1. Joe Bond

and I don't care what kind of form he's in. Give him the opportunity to fulfill his dream playing first grade and I'm sure he'll lift to the location. The guy has speed and that's something we're sorely lacking and he'll give us some direction.

2. *insert QCup winger*

Don't care who whether it's Peter Gubb, Shea Moylan or Palmer Wapau on a diet. Maranta is so out of his depth right now he's easily the worst winger we've ever had.

3. Josh Hoffman

Defensively he looks ordinary but he showed some good zip out there and we need a proper backline player.

4. Justin Hodges
5. Jordan Kahu
6. Peter Wallace
7. Ben Hunt
8. Josh McGuire
9. Andrew McCullough
10. Ben Hannant
11. Alex Glenn
12. Sam Thaiday
13. Corey Parker

14. Kurt Baptiste
15. Lama Tasi
16. Matt Gillett
17. Corey Oates

18. David Stagg
19. David Hala

Stagg either starts or doesn't play at all.

Good side.

 

[Porthoz]

Already answered those questions earlier.

Not how keeping Oates as centre means Maranta will stay in the side.

 

[Big Pete]

I was referring to Oates.

Because I can see Hook wanting to play Stagg off the bench.

 

[Big Pete]

"I would love to have a chance there but I think it's going to stay the way it is," Hunt said.
"Princey and Wal are going all right, we just have to keep going forward in the middle and give them a chance to play with the footy.
"If we can keep rolling through the middle and you know hopefully get some quick play the balls it gives them a better opportunity to have a go.
"Sometimes in a couple of games the effort has been there we've just lacked a bit of composure and sticking to the game plan I guess.
"If we all stick together and keep training hard and I know the halves are going well they're working hard, I think you know they've got to stick together and things are going good and hopefully they will turn."

No Cookies | The Courier-Mail

Lame

 

[broncos4life]

Hoffman is not a centre. He should not play there ever again. Not yet at least. He has the instincts of a winger. He seldom looks to pass/offload. Whether than can be coached is a another question. His place is on the wing

I can only dream of JYY and Hoffman on each wing. Wow

Oates IMO is the future post Hodges. He should be getting max. game time as starting centre.

The dilemma is Thaiday. Front row? NO. Nein. Nyet. Non. Never. His game was, is and should be running wide at their backs, where on his day, he is very very good.

The question then becomes whether to start with Gillett or Glenn. As much as I am a Gillett fanboy, I'd start with Glenn.

Norman should never sully a Broncos jersey again

My team would be:

1. Kahu (If we don't get Barba, he is our future FB in my opinion)
2. Hoffman
3. Oates
4. Hodges
5. Not Maranta
6. Prince
7.Wallace
8. Hannant
9. Macca
10. McGuire
11. Glenn
12. Thaiday
13. Parker

14. Hunt
15. Gillett
16. Tasi
17. Dodds

Hala is too unfit for NRL. I was impressed with Dodds. Hits hard and runs hard. He should be a permanent bench forward.

Prince and Wallace are ok if the team plays with some sort of well rehearsed structure, like our left side attack when they have some room and space to compensate for Wallace's lack of pace.

Prince has shown he can set up good right side plays. Why he hasn't is probably Hook's poor coaching

I honestly cannot understand how you come to the conclusion that Hoffman is not a centre. He was brilliant there on Friday night. He's ability to break tackles and he's speed to get on the outside of his man has him pretty much tailor made for centre. Just because he is a brilliant finisher and the team currently need him on the wing doesn't mean centre isn't his best position

 

[broncos4life]

I cannot agree with you about Hoffman. Whether Hodges or any other centre passes or not is separate - they should. Any good centre looks to his outside and inside. Hodges does that.

While Hoffa was elusive, made great runs not once did he look inside or outside. He has no instincts to pass. He has in the past but that was when Lockyer was playing, and enough has been posted here to show that Locky made anyone look good, well, not so much good, but he made his outside men understand what what was required of them and he set up the plays.

Which again underlies Hook's coaching deficiencies.

If Hoffa did what he ought to - look for support and pass instead of making great, incisive runs and dying with the ball, then yes, he would make a great centre or FB

However, his try scoring record on the wing is for mine, the most convincing argument about his best position

How could locky being there have any impact on him passing the ball?

As for hodges passing the ball when was the last time he did that? And when I say pass I don't mean a throw when it's too late for the winger to do anything or a pass forward. Don't get me wrong I love hodgo and IMO he is still one of the best centres in the game, but using him as a measure as to why hoffy should never play centre again is absurd IMO

 

[broncos4life]

Hold your horses rna, I wasn't attacking you, I was attacking your point and I already explained why.

Centres don't need A grade passing games. As I pointed out, the best centres in the game don't have them, even GI doesn't have them and as long as they can pass they're fine. Hoffman can and did pass last night - and that's something you didn't even touch on because you know you're wrong.

Give him time, he showed plenty in the centres last night and it's clearly his future position.

Sums up my thoughts completely

 

[rnabokov]

Hoffman passed the ball 3 times: 1 pass, 2 tip ons, and 3 dummy half passes. Not much really ....

But, Hoffman played a strong running centre's game. Quick, elusive and .... seldom looks inside or outside for support. For mine, a centre has to have the instincts, like a FB, like any player, to always look to pass or offload.

That's why Jamie Lyon is the best centre in the world ... he is always looking to set up a play for either inside or outside runners, and it's a pass or a kick.

Hodges isn't far behind. It's asinine to say that Hodges doesn't pass or offload. He does, I remember many, including some nice flick ons, and he also like a lot like Lyons is nearly always looking to create an opportunity.

GI not have an A grade passing game? You gotta be joking! He has thrown so many sublime passes to set up plays and tries. Sheesh!

These threads are littered with comments about how many players Lockyer made look much better than they do now, incl. Hoffman about 2nd man plays.

As well, there is a whole thread devoted to the "Hoffman Dilemma" where most posts deal with Hoffman's deficiencies in passing, instincts and ball playing skills but, more importantly, his value as our top try scorer ... on the wing, and the combo he has buiilt with Reed

IMO, that is where Hoffa belongs. On the wing. A try scoring machine

We have good running centres: Reed, Oates, even Glenn. Reed's combo with Hoffman is terrific. It makes tries. We don't need another running centre like Hoffa IMO when he's a try scoring machine in on the wing

That was my point.

 

[rnabokov]

PS

On watching the game re-plays several times, IMO Lui and Hunt had very good games, and Wallace, if only he had serious pace, he would be dynamite.

I was also too harsh on Prince. He played ok.

Our single biggest problem remains as it has for years - a serious pathetic lack of support runners screaming for the ball.

 

[Kimlo]

@1910 did say Copley is 3-4 weeks away, so maybe, MAYBE, we might see Copley return for this game with 2 weeks to get ready. He might come back through reserve grade first though, so even if he is fit he might not play 1st grade straight away.

 

[Buzz Killington]

I hope Copley stays away for this year. It is a lost cause and there is no point putting him back in after a serious leg injury if we have next to nothing to play for. Rather he just keep recovering then have a great off season getting ready for next seasons trials. Copley is good but he isn't a player that is going to be the difference between shit and slightly less shit for us.

 

[Big Pete]

Great to see some research rna. :thumbup1:

Here's my problem with your assessment.

The centre position is far more important than the wing position in the modern game. That's just how it is and Hoffman poses a much bigger threat for us than Oates who you would describe as the same class as centre. With Reed out, why not give Hoffman the opportunity to prove himself in a position where he has more space and room to excel? He's by far one of our best attacking threats and there are definitely times where he's being wasted on the wing.

I also feel like writing off an aspect of his game, when he's only played in the position twice very premature. Give him time to form a combination, lord knows Reed received plenty of stick for not passing it to Hoffy earlier in the season.

I fully expect Hook to name Oates in the centre and Hoffman on the wing so he can keep Stagg in the side. I don't think it's in our best interest to go down that path for the reasons stated but that's life.

As for our halves, they showed some good signs in the second half but still let themselves down at crucial points and I can't believe it took Ben Hunt to sum up something neither of them could for 50 minutes (130 minutes + if we're being honest).

 

[Alec]

The centre position is far more important than the wing position in the modern game.

I think that's only because most centres are ball hogs and coaches seem to love putting their best attacking players at centre. I'd say wingers should be a little more important, they have got a much bigger defensive role, they are important in getting sets started returning the ball, and they have to finish tries like centres do. That's why I kinda like the passing centres, you can have the better player on his outside.

 

[Big Pete]

All things even I'd say they're both equal when it comes to defence. Sure, wingers have to field bombs and such but centres have to be apart of that AND have a far tougher job defending in the front line. Not only do you have to be a strong defender, you have to be able to read and have the relative mobility/speed to be a good defensive centre.

In the end the idea of a running centre/ball-playing centre comes down to preference. However, in this case it's between two running centres in Hoffman vs. Oates.

 

[rnabokov]

The above posts are a dilemma. Personally, I believe every player should ALWAYS be looking on either side to pass or offload.

Hoffman can pass but seems almost reluctant, but then as I always maintain, it's pointless passing to vacant space. When Hoffa made that excellent line break there was no one following him. Support play is the Broncos single biggest failure.

As for defence reads, am I wrong or did Hoffman let Carney through a gap by not anticipating what Carney always does when he runs laterally then straightens and accelerates? Carney is good, but to a good one-on-one defender, he is predictable in that play.

Lyons is lucky. Invariably, he has a support runner, no doubt because the coach insists on that. Couple that with Lyons's knowing that moving the ball is what wins matches explains my view he is the best centre in the world (GI is a born FB, not a centre)

Doesn't Hook coach support play?

 

[subsbligh]

I think the more relevant question for Hook is what is your line-up for Round 1 2014 - Broncos v Cowboys.

 

[Big Pete]

On replay I believe the responsibility was on Dodds to come in but he just wasn't quick enough. Hoffman couldn't have been expected to be any further inside otherwise Kahu would have been isolated.