Sam Tomkins

Tomkins:

Tries: 2
Try Assists: 3
Line Breaks: 2
Line Break Assists: 5
Tackle Breaks: 15

Slater:

Tries: 1
Try Assists: 3
Line Breaks: 1
Line Break Assists: 5
Tackle Breaks: 13

Barba:

Tries: 0
Try Assists: 2
Line Breaks: 0
Line Break Assists: 2
Tackle Breaks: 4

Inglis:

Tries: 3
Try Assists: 1
Line Breaks: 5
Line Break Assists: 1
Tackle Breaks: 22

Hayne:

Tries: 2
Try Assists: 4
Line Breaks: 2
Line Break Assists: 7
Tackle Breaks: 20

I'd say he's doing pretty well so far.
 
Porthoz said:
The thing is Ning, he's not playing any different to what he was doing in the ESL, he really isn't. What he's shown so far, is the same he has shown for years in the ESL, not more, not less.

People look at the highlights of him carving up bad defenses, blow their load and think he's going to do that to good teams... he never has and most likely never will. On top of that, he will find it much tougher defending in the NRL, and will be found out regularly.

The Tigers game is a perfect example of Tomkins. As long as the other team doesn't fall apart, he is ordinary, but if they do, he will certainly take advantage of it. The question is, hoe often will that happen in the NRL, and do his pros weigh up against his cons at $750K p/y rate (+ the signing fee the Warriors had to pay)?

P.S. I understand what you're saying regarding players adapting to their new surroundings when they move countries and cultures, but do you really think a player with a top 5 salary in any Football competition, would be given the benefit of the doubt for a whole year? Would Real Madrid give Ronaldo a year to "adapt"? Aguero at Man City? Or even Drogba at Galatasaray, to name a few?
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The signing fee the Warriors paid is irrelevant. It's not part of the cap and the NRL isn't about P&L statements.

You are right about the defending aspect of the game. He is very timid on kick returns and often looks to dump it off to Fish or Manu. The latter I understand but Fish not so much. Some of his tackling attempts also leave much to be desired, but with the right level of application I think he can improve over time to be decent at it.

I still maintain, like I have earlier, that his biggest asset in the NRL will not be his weaving runs but his playmaking. He has shown, IMO, exceptional decision making skills when chiming in down the right side of the field, as his line break assists stat that AP posted shows. And that is with the Warriors performing pretty poorly so far.

SJ is almost exclusively a right sided player and with Ropati injured Hurrell comes into right centre inside of Fisiiahi. When you add Tomkins to that mix with his ability it will be lethal. He has exceptional decision making skills in that regards, knows when to run or pass, and who to pass it to and how, be it quick hands, cut out, holding the ball up, or an over the top pass to take the intercept out of play. The element that he adds as the 2nd man down those right side plays IMO will prove massive and I'd not be at all surprised if Fish and Hurrell combine for well over 40 tries this year (With hopefully Fish scoring more of them)
 
Even a cursory glance at those stats exposes them. 50 % of his TB came against the Tigers. 2 of his try ass came against 1 team (Cows) So 1 TA in the other 3 games. 3 of his LBA against 1 side.

Stats don't mean that much at this point. I judge him by what I see which is not that much at this point.
 
Ari Gold said:
The signing fee the Warriors paid is irrelevant. It's not part of the cap and the NRL isn't about P&L statements.

You are right about the defending aspect of the game. He is very timid on kick returns and often looks to dump it off to Fish or Manu. The latter I understand but Fish not so much. Some of his tackling attempts also leave much to be desired, but with the right level of application I think he can improve over time to be decent at it.

I still maintain, like I have earlier, that his biggest asset in the NRL will not be his weaving runs but his playmaking. He has shown, IMO, exceptional decision making skills when chiming in down the right side of the field, as his line break assists stat that AP posted shows. And that is with the Warriors performing pretty poorly so far.

SJ is almost exclusively a right sided player and with Ropati injured Hurrell comes into right centre inside of Fisiiahi. When you add Tomkins to that mix with his ability it will be lethal. He has exceptional decision making skills in that regards, knows when to run or pass, and who to pass it to and how, be it quick hands, cut out, holding the ball up, or an over the top pass to take the intercept out of play. The element that he adds as the 2nd man down those right side plays IMO will prove massive and I'd not be at all surprised if Fish and Hurrell combine for well over 40 tries this year (With hopefully Fish scoring more of them)
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How is it not relevant? Whether it's part of the cap or not (and I think it should be, but that's for another discussion), the Warriors paid it, and are paying him a top salary on top of it, salary only beaten by Thurston and Cam Smith. Seriously... he's not even close to the best fullbacks in the NRL, much less to the two best players in the game!

I never said he is worthless, as yes, he can be dangerous in attack, but generally only against ill disciplined or just plain bad defenses. But you want to pay that kind of money to a player that will offer a X-factor against the best teams and can help you win finals, not only through his attack, but also his defense.
He isn't that guy, never has been, and it's very unlikely he will ever be.
 
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Porthoz said:
I never said he is worthless, as yes, he can be dangerous in attack, but generally only against ill disciplined or just plain bad defenses. But you want to pay that kind of money to a player that will offer a X-factor against the best teams and can help you win finals, not only through his attack, but also his defense.
He isn't that guy, never has been, and it's very unlikely he will ever be.
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Crazy that you can come to these conclusions after four matches of his first season in the NRL lol.

You say hes "never been" an X-factor player? Have you not seen any highlights of his? He's the Super Leagues Billy Slater, only he scored a tonne more tries than Slater.
 
146 tries in 155 games says it all.

If it was purely because of bad defense then there should be dozens of players with those sort of stats, wouldnt you think?
 
Tomkins will never carve up defences with his runs like he did in the ESL because the English teams are worse, but quite frankly, I don't think he needs to. He will, as Porthoz mentioned, still carve up lazy defences.

But against the top teams I believe he will more than make up for it with his excellent decision making as the second man in attacking plays, the way Khunt used to be for us.

I will say that I think he'd be a lot less valuable to every other team than the Warriors, but given the ingredients around him I believe he could well be the key piece of the puzzle. Again, you have SJ as first receiver on the right, Tomkins the second man with Hurrell and Fisiiahi outside of him. Running outside of SJ can create more room for SJ to go himself, and if it doesn't and the ball goes to Tomkins he can either run if he sees a hole or ball play for either a damaging Hurrell or cut him out for the flying Fish. You replace Tomkins in that link with Locke or Fish at fullback with Fusitia on the wing or frankly any other FB in the game outside of Hayne and you won't get the same threat.

Him and SJ will cause havoc to every team's left edge defence this year. And whilst I don't have official stats, from my memory 10 tries have been scored so far by the Warriors right edge attack. Two were from kicks (Bukuya and Fish #4 on the weekend), all the rest were from passing movements and Tomkins was involved in at least 7 of them.
 
I've said my piece on this, and I'm not going to repeat myself, but thanks for offering a more balanced view [MENTION=1917]Ari Gold[/MENTION].

Now my question to you: Where would you honestly rank him in the NRL?
 
Porthoz said:
I've said my piece on this, and I'm not going to repeat myself, but thanks for offering a more balanced view @Ari Gold.

Now my question to you: Where would you honestly rank him in the NRL?
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Honestly I don't think you can yet. The guy has played 4 games for a team who save for last weekend haven't been playing great footy. It would be no fairer to rank him than it would be Luke Brooks, or even say Will Hopoate, who despite having NRL experience IMO is playing poorly upon his return and is on big bucks. But as I said, I think it'd be unfair to rank them too, we need more time.

One thing I will be brutally honest about -- Sam Tomkins will never be more valuable to a team than he will be to the Warriors. Their set up is the perfect environment for him, so I will say that if he doesn't succeed at the Warriors, it's entirely on him and not the set-up.

I think too he will need SJ to perform well in order for him to do well himself. He's no Greg Inglis, I don't think he'll beast mode on his own. However, the potential with SJ is exceptional. Remember that try SJ scored against us in the trial? Tomkins was on his outside and because of the threat he offered SJ walked right through. I can very easily see Tomkins and SJ being a far superior combination to anything Bowen + JT ever offered in attack, but at the same time he could be a flop.

Time will tell if it is either or somewhere in between, but you do need to give him time.

Also, on the point you made earlier about the salaries of JT and Smith etc., no, he is not worth the same salary, but the Warriors don't have the option of paying that money to JT and Smith instead as they wouldn't be able to lure them, so what they've done is taken a calculated gamble on a player who suits their team very well. Whether or not it is a winner or lose is again, something time will tell us, but honestly, tell me one player who the Warriors could reasonably expect to sign that would offer them the potential payoff as Tomkins? IMO there's none.
 
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I can't see how you guys just dismiss his line breaking ability as 'lazy defence'. Pure speed is a huge weapon in the NRL and can get through even the best defences. How many tries has Milford scored in the last 12 months were it was pretty much 100% down to his speed and acceleration? Barba did it week in week out in 2012, just beat his man with his speed. Tomkins is quick, and while he won't get 150 tries in 150 games in the NRL (if he plays that many) I can easily see him being a prominent try scorer and line breaker.

It's funny seeing the different treatment Tomkins is already getting than a player like Gillett gets. Gillett stinks the stadium up week in week out for 18 months, but the second anyone mentions that maybe hes not gonna be much better than he is they get met with all sorts of names. Tomkins is the most lethal try scoring player in history of probably the NRL, ARL, NSWRL and ESL, moves country, plays 4 games with the most inconsistent team in the history of the NRL, scores a couple of tries, sets a few more up, and people are going straight to "he'll never be any better than he is right now". He's also only 25, hes probably got his best years ahead of him.
 
When Jamie Lyon jonied Manly from St Helens, it took him a year, possibly more to start getting to his best. Now he's one of the most valuable players in the competition, and I don't think Manly regret those years of him finding his feet again at all.

Tomkins might also take a year, but like AP said, who else do the Warriors have to spend their money on? If/when he starts gunning it in the future, I'm sure they'll be glad they were the ones to sign him, and not somebody else.
 
Reminds me of Lockyer's running game in his younger fullback years.
 
Anonymous person said:
I can't see how you guys just dismiss his line breaking ability as 'lazy defence'. Pure speed is a huge weapon in the NRL and can get through even the best defences. How many tries has Milford scored in the last 12 months were it was pretty much 100% down to his speed and acceleration? Barba did it week in week out in 2012, just beat his man with his speed. Tomkins is quick, and while he won't get 150 tries in 150 games in the NRL (if he plays that many) I can easily see him being a prominent try scorer and line breaker.

It's funny seeing the different treatment Tomkins is already getting than a player like Gillett gets. Gillett stinks the stadium up week in week out for 18 months, but the second anyone mentions that maybe hes not gonna be much better than he is they get met with all sorts of names. Tomkins is the most lethal try scoring player in history of probably the NRL, ARL, NSWRL and ESL, moves country, plays 4 games with the most inconsistent team in the history of the NRL, scores a couple of tries, sets a few more up, and people are going straight to "he'll never be any better than he is right now". He's also only 25, hes probably got his best years ahead of him.
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I think the cursory NRL fans expect Tompkins to be a mercernary like SBW - paid a shitload, play 1 season, deliver instantly.

The Warriors will come good this season. And Tompkins will score some special tries once their form improves.
 
Despite the result I thought Tomkins was very impressive against the Dragons. Made a try saver on Nightingale, used his excellent attacking abilities to score his try and set up a number of good opportunities which Dane Nielsen fucked up. For mine it was an improvement on all aspects of his game and if the Warriors as a team can get going I think we'll see Sam start to justify his fee.
 
Another very impressive game from Tomkins tonight. Looking more dangerous in terms of his running game and whilst he won't ever be a great defensive asset, I think he's really cut out some of the liabilities that were costing his team. His combination with SJ has still to really kick off but I think this last fortnight he's been better than some people even considered him capable of doing.
 
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