Ye Olde Coach Argument

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Re: Israel Folau wants out... I'll show him the door.

Anonymous person said:
oops youre right, my mistake.

[icon_razz1
 
Re: Israel Folau wants out... I'll show him the door.

I don't think WB is or ever was anything grand as a coach of a football team... what he has always been is a great recruiter of players. We all like to say how great the broncos did under him, BUT any team with one of the world's best players in it year in and year out will always do well. From 88 till now, Lewis, Langer, Lazo, Tallis, Webcke, Lockyer... and for most years more than just one of the these at the club at the same time, and now... the thing is that the lesser players are too far off the mark nowadays and Locky can't do it all on his own. For the first time in 20 years we REALLY do need a great coach.
 
Re: Israel Folau wants out... I'll show him the door.

Exactly, I would have thought that identifying talent and character was a pretty important part of being a coach.

The other thing WB is particularly good at is getting players to play for him.
 
I think that's the main part of being a coach at the top level. By the time players are worthy of playing NRL level, there is (or should be) very little to teach (coach) them in terms of skills and the game. At professional level it's about recruitment, setting a game plan that suits the style of players you have and personell management; more than it is about coaching. That's why I like in soccer they call them managers not coaches - more representative of what they are IMO
 
Flutterby said:
I think that's the main part of being a coach at the top level. By the time players are worthy of playing NRL level, there is (or should be) very little to teach (coach) them in terms of skills and the game. At professional level it's about recruitment, setting a game plan that suits the style of players you have and personell management; more than it is about coaching. That's why I like in soccer they call them managers not coaches - more representative of what they are IMO

I would agree, but the way every Broncos player is completely unable to make an effective tackle that wraps up the ball tells me that kids aren't coached that.
 
At the moment yes I agree with you (hence why I added the should be bit). You only really need to look at the scorelines in the Toyota Cup to realise that defence isn't a high priority in the next generation of footballers. I think the reason it's more noticable in the Broncos is because we are having to use so many of our U20s players ATM; but as these guys come through in the next couple of years I think we will see it being a problem in most of the NRL teams.
 
Flutterby said:
At the moment yes I agree with you (hence why I added the should be bit). You only really need to look at the scorelines in the Toyota Cup to realise that defence isn't a high priority in the next generation of footballers. I think the reason it's more noticable in the Broncos is because we are having to use so many of our U20s players ATM; but as these guys come through in the next couple of years I think we will see it being a problem in most of the NRL teams.

That plus despite Bennett and Cullen's bluster that the Broncos would spurn the Toyota Cup and put its best under 20 players in Q Cup, they didn't. The fact Ben Hunt spent most of last season in U20s is a joke.
 
Re: Israel Folau wants out... I'll show him the door.

The Rock said:
Chumbason said:
I don't think WB is or ever was anything grand as a coach of a football team... what he has always been is a great recruiter of players. We all like to say how great the broncos did under him, BUT any team with one of the world's best players in it year in and year out will always do well. From 88 till now, Lewis, Langer, Lazo, Tallis, Webcke, Lockyer... and for most years more than just one of the these at the club at the same time, and now... the thing is that the lesser players are too far off the mark nowadays and Locky can't do it all on his own. For the first time in 20 years we REALLY do need a great coach.

Going by your logic, Craig Bellamy isn't a great coach then either, he's just a great recruiter. Cameron Smith, Billy Slater, Greg Inglis, Matt King, Israel Folau, Cooper Cronk......

Sadly no Rock, Bellamy I'm afraid is not only a great recruiter, but also a bloody good coach.

I can say this because of the simple fact that the Storm, a Bellamy coached side have been the number one side week in and week out for almost the last five years.

I can already see ppl saying that 'they havn't won 5 comps in that time' and i agree, but few amongst us would disagree that as far as week in week out football, the storm get it done better than any other side. The second thing i see ppl saying is 'what about nsw? bellamy coaches them!' and i agree, but that is soo, and the coach has one week to work magic... lets just remember Fatty's big wins at soo level.

WB coached sides have not looked convincing for well over a decade and even before that the broncos never carried the authority that some of the other super sides have and I believe this to be so because, we have almost always been a side of super stars and not a super star side. We have always relied on a couple of players to save the day and not on our team work and game plan. Sure we have had some great results, but time is catching up with us...
 
Seriously - did you watch the Broncos play during the 90s? A lot of those years we were the number 1 side week in week out and had fantastic team work.
 
one IS a great coach, one WAS a great coach.

big difference.
 
*groan* more melbourne navel gazing.
 
Yeah this is getting annoying. No topic is safe from Melbourne talk. Change the sites name to "Brisbane and Melbourne" HQ"
 
yeah i 100% disagree with that, like you.
 
I dont know AP - I'm not that won over with Bellamy as everyone else is.

I won't deny he drills his team well (hehe), clinical set plays, structure etc etc.

He seems to have a role for everyone in the team and all they have to do is do it. It's like one of those strategy games where he is the commander and you control everyone. Personally, I don't really like that style.

Furthermore - he kills RL as a spectacle because the team have to follow his gameplan.
 
I don't like the style either, but despite it being so structured and clinical it seems very few teams have had any success nullifying it. The Titans seem to have been the most successful...ironically a very structured and boring team themselves.

The rest of the competition just hasn't found a way to adequately combat the structure. The Broncos' game plan worked in the 2006 Grand Final - stop Inglis. But the Storm aren't as reliant on him now as they were then.

Nobody can deny Bellamy has devised an ingenius method to dominate the game even with a lot of also-ran type players (Finch, Quinn etc) with just enough stars to put it all together. And nobody can deny that when the NRL have devised rules to try and stop some of Bellamy's tactics, he's come up with alternatives just as successful.

I'm no Storm fan, but it's just disingenuous not to acknowledge what they do so well (not that you have to like it!).
 
Coxy said:
And nobody can deny that when the NRL have devised rules to try and stop some of Bellamy's tactics, he's come up with alternatives just as successful.
havent you heard coxy? the NRL dont make rules to try and stop bellamys tactics, they only make rules to make the game safer :roll: .
 
changing rules to stop tactics IS changing rules to stop melbourne being successful when the reason melbourne are successful is their tactics lol.

its like saying that bringing in a new law to make pubs use plastic instead of glass isnt to try and stop people from glassing other people lol. the reason people get glassed is because of the glass, so saying you cant use glass is a direct result of trying to stop people being glassed because if you take away the glass, glassings cant happen. if you take away melbournes winning tactics, they cant win - thats the theory.
 
Safety was one factor. Ugliness was the main one. Whether grapples were safe or not was one thing, but there's no doubt it's an ugly look for the game seeing players in headlocks.

Bellamy doesn't care much whether his game plan is attractive to watch, he just cares about winning. Fair enough, that's a coach's job.

The problem with the NRL is it implements rules/interpretations as a knee jerk response to media and public outcry about a particular issue in the game, and the referees are then overcoached so that they penalise things that were never the issue in the first place.

2 examples:
1. Tackling players in the air. The danger was in attacking defending winger/fullback's legs as he's up in the air to catch the ball, in turn flipping him so he lands dangerously. Now we penalise any contact made with a defensive winger/fullback in mid air catching a ball unless you're going for the ball too. The result is a lot of teams (Broncos included) don't even challenge for the ball anymore. Let the defensive winger jump and then tackle him when he hits the deck.

2. Dangerous throws. Spear tackles are undoubtedly fucking dangerous. But the interpretation is so watered down now to "above the horizontal" such that if a player even remotely comes on a head first angle into the ground it's a penalty.

3. Grapple tackles. As I said, head locks are potentially dangerous and are an ugly look. But they seem to penalise any arm draped anywhere near a player's head/neck, even if it's actually on their shoulder/chest.

But again, I'm going off topic.

As for rules changed to stop Bennett tactics...well, I can't recall any specifically. Although you could argue the rushed push to get rid of unlimited interchange followed the Broncos' domination of the 2000 comp on the back of relentless forward power.

And back in 1994 touch judges started noting whether chasers of kicks were onside after the Langer->Carne corner bomb combination was incorrectly penalised for offside a couple of times (notably in an Origin match). Didn't change the rules, but it changed how the officials watched the game.
 
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