Anthony Seibold wipes Wayne Bennett’s legacy from Red Hill

Discussion in 'Brisbane Broncos Talk' started by Unbreakable, Mar 1, 2019.

  1. Tom

    Tom NRL Captain

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    Yeah but in a sport like soccer there would be dozens of qualified coaches available at any given time, probably more.
     
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  2. Wolfie

    Wolfie State of Origin Rep

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    Probably not that many actually at the very top level suitable for the big sides.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
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  3. scobie

    scobie NYC Player

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    So using this rationale, why did it take so long to get rid of Wayne Bennett. If top clubs demand championships and coaches are allowed no slack, like the examples you've given, then sacking WB was the only logical thing to do at the end of 2016.

    I personally don't believe that should have happened no more than I believe Anthony Seibold should be sacked if we don't win a premiership in the next two years. As a few other guys have said on here, if we keep improving and become more consistent, he'll have done a good job and put us in a position to challenge.
     
  4. Wolfie

    Wolfie State of Origin Rep

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    But I haven't said anything about Seibold getting the sack if he doesn't win a premiership. I said he shouldnt be given any leeway if we have a mediocre year. I just expect him to have us challenging strongly. If we can't at least match last year questions should be asked.

    As for why we didn't sack Bennett In 2016, I don't see why we should have. We made the semi finals, we weren't that far away.
     
  5. scobie

    scobie NYC Player

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    I'm agreeing with you that Bennett shouldn't have been sacked either after 2016. And all things considered I don't think there's any chance that we will have a mediocre year this year.
    But to use the soccer comparison, if you look at what happened at Man City when Pep took over, the results and performances weren't instantaneous. It took a year to bed in his training and playing style. So even though his first year was a little underwhelming, no one was calling for his head. They had faith he would come good.
    So if results don't go immediately to plan this year for Seibold, I believe we have to back him and maybe cut him a little slack. But only for this year!!
     
  6. Sorry @Wolfie@Wolfie , but you cannot say the salary cap doesn't matter.
    The reason clubs like Man U, Bayern, Real, Barcelona, Juventus, or even Porto have such high standards, is because of the lack of a salary cap.

    They compete with a few (or often just one) other clubs for the domestic titles, while the overwhelming majority of the clubs in their competition, are pretty much fighting over the scraps... like a position high enough up the ladder that will allow them to enter the Europa League, or with a bit of luck, the Champions League.
    Without a salary cap, those clubs must do with the leftovers of the top teams who are financially so much more powerful, they not only buy the best players in their country, they buy the best players from all the countries which cannot compete financially against these behemoths.

    Even the Champions League has become a farce in that aspect. It takes something really special for a team outside of the cream from England, Germany, Italy or Spain to intrude in the business end of that competition, much less win it.
    The last and only team to do this in the last 25 years was Porto in 2003 (UEFA Cup Winner) and 2004 (Champions League). They were consequently "raped" by the likes of Chelsea, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Man Utd, Bayern, etc... who offered obscene contracts and salaries, gutting the team of 2/3 of its players and the coach.
    When Porto threatened to repeat the feat in 2011 by winning the Europa League with a very promising team, they didn't even get the chance to have a go in the Champions League, because those same clubs raided them again.

    As much as your comparison is valid in terms of the Broncos being the elite of the NRL like those clubs are the elite of their respective comps, we don't have the advantages they have to be able to consistently demand titles, because the salary cap artificially "cuts our legs" and props others up.

    If the NRL was like the EPL or any soccer league really, the Cowboys would have never won the competition, because they wouldn't have had Thurston, Scott, Morgan and Taumalolo in their team.
    In fact, we'd probably see a Broncos - chooks GF every second or third year, with one of those two teams taking the trophy home every single season.

    We're still the cream of the NRL, we still have the best stadium, culture, charisma and financial health.
    Yes, we're in the city that is the beating heart of rugby league, we have the regular pick of one of the richest Rugby League catchment areas, and yes, we probably have the pick of the best coaches in the NRL (which are rare). That is why we should demand to at least be in the finals every season, but outside of that, all we can really demand from a coach, is to perform at the level commensurate with the roster under his command, and more importantly, show continuous improvement (herein, you have also the reasons for Bennett's sacking).

    ****, didn't intend to turn this into a text wall.

    TL/DR: The Salary Cap cripples the Broncos too much to allow for comparisons with the top soccer teams, which don't have such a restriction.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
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  7. Trust me, that's not a text wall. It's a well written response and worthwhile reading.
     
  8. Wolfie

    Wolfie State of Origin Rep

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    Tbf, and not wanting to turn this into a debate about football, the Man City Pep inherited weren't the side they are now. They were an aging side with players not suited to how he has his team playing. He had a bit of rebuilding to do so in that situation then I'd actually say its fair to give a head coach a bit of time. I don't think we are in the same boat as I don't think we need a rebuild. In many ways, Football can have a lot more complexities when it comes to building a team than rugby league.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2019
  9. Wolfie

    Wolfie State of Origin Rep

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    I think Leicester City put a bit of a spanner in the works though with your arguments!

    I totally get your points, the big clubs do have an advantage without the salary cap no doubt, but at the same time there are plenty of clubs in that top end bracket with money that compete against each other. You have six clubs in England for example with money to burn, probably 8 if you look at what Wolves and Everton are capable of spending.

    Brisbane do have an advantage over other NRL clubs (apart from the rorters ) with our third party deals and other kick backs they get. Couple of the guys I know who have left Brisbane in the last couple of years have commented about how good they had it at Brisbane compared to their current clubs. I know it's not necessarily salary cap related, but the Broncos players have the best of everything, don't think that happens elsewhere.
     
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  10. Epl players value.
    Chelsea 885,75 mill
    Newcastle United 159.03
    It's not really a level playing field
     
  11. Wolfie

    Wolfie State of Origin Rep

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    But I presume you understand why Newcastle have spent so much less that chelsea
     
  12. It's an elite competition with a salary cap attempting to even the contest

    Winning the thing takes an enormous amount of skill, dedication and even luck

    But the Broncos are/were and should be a benchmark club

    We can't win it every year but we should be in the hunt every year, and that probably means top 4

    Top 8 would be the bare minimum expectation, with top 4 considered a successful year

    The coach should be hauled before the board with a "please explain" in any season where we don't make the top 4

    Not saying he should be sacked, but he needs a justifiable rationale
     
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  13. You can't use an exception to prove a point, come on.

    The EPL probably has about 5 clubs at the most who can compete for the title. The power houses such as Man Utd, Liverpool or Arsenal, and the clubs propped up by imense riches from their oligarch owners, like Chelsea and Man City.
    Realistically though, with the exception of Leicester, it's really down to Man Utd, Chelsea or Man City for the last 15 years, with clubs with a rich history like Liverpool and Arsenal unable to keep up with the big money of the those 3.

    Wolves, Everton and a few other EPL teams can still field reasonably good teams thanks to the unbelievably rich EPL broadcast deal, which allows them to source players from all over Europe, but their fight is really to get into the European competitions, not win the EPL.

    In fact, in every single domestic competition, you have at most 3 teams vying for the title, simply because they have far more money than the rest of their country's teams. Look at Germany (Bayern or Dortmund), Italy (Juventus, Milan or Inter), Spain (Barcelona or Real Madrid), Portugal (Porto or Benfica), Netherlands (Ajax, PSV or occasionally Feyenoord), etc...

    The advantages the Broncos undoubtedly have, do give them a bit of a leg up, but nothing compared to being able to spend 10x more than Sharks, Cowboys or Tits on players, and definitely not the expectation to be in the GF every second or third year.

    Put it the other way around. Why did Chelsea spend so much more than Newcastle?
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2019
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  14. Cult3

    Cult3 State of Origin Captain

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    Can anyone actually deny that the broncos have higher expectations than most other clubs though?
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2019
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  15. Anthony Griffin.
     
  16. Cult3

    Cult3 State of Origin Captain

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    We competed in 2011 (3rd)
    We were expected to compete in 2012
    We missed the finals in 2013
    Anthony Griffin was replaced in 2014

    We were still expected to perform and the fans expected more from us. Nobody is saying we always meet the expectations but people (Even opposition fans) are shocked and surprised if we don't.
     
  17. Right, which is why it was odd that Griffin was still able to keep his job after 2013. If the Brisbane Broncos were serious about meeting those expectations, they would have fired Griffin after that disasterous season.

    Still, if rumours are to be believed, there were some members of the board who wanted Griffin to stay on in 2015.
     
  18. Cult3

    Cult3 State of Origin Captain

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    Which proves the point that is being argued. Griffin wasn't given any slack by the fans because most of us wanted him gone after that season. If Seibold has a similar season he will receive similar criticism. No Broncos coach deserves or is ever going to get a year of slack because we are expected to be competitive.
     
  19. I had a feeling we weren't on the same page. I wasn't talking about the fans, I was talking about the organisation.
     
  20. Wolfie

    Wolfie State of Origin Rep

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    Tbf i do agree with you as well that being the richest and best run club in the comp does see us hamstrung in some ways with a salary cap. Dont thin as Cult said it changes the expectations we have though.

    You would be pretty naive to think we dont use our financial clout to give us an advantage when it comes to player recruitment in ways that arent on the books, and you only have to look at our facilities to see we are streets ahead of every other Rugby league team in the world let alone Australia. As a Broncos fan, i expect us to challenge every single year. I dont think its unreasonable to think thats whats expected from board level as well. We arent in the game to be also rans, otherwise we wouldn't invest so much into the club. My original point though was never really about financial clout as such anyway, it was about whats expected of a leading club, and Brisbane are without question one of the leading clubs in the NRL. ITs kind of got off track with the premier league talk! Which brings me to my next points!

    In regards to Chelsea, they spent so much more than Newcastle because the owner of Newcastle, Mike Ashley, doesnt want the club anymore, wont invest any more money into it than the bare minimum and is looking to sell. I'd guess Newcastle would be in the bottom 3 spenders in the premier league right now.

    Not sure if you watch a great deal of premier league football ( for the record, i do, its my main sport to watch ) but i think you are way off with what you think some of these clubs are spending. From the top of my head, Fulham, one place from the bottom of the league, have spent more than Man City, Arsenal and Spurs, as have Wolves, Bournemouth, Everton, Leicester and probably a lot of others ( i could research it, but im not sure i can be bothered! ). Liverpool have also easily been able to keep up with the spending of the big clubs. I'd guess apart from Chelsea nobody has spent more than them in the last few years than Liverpool. In financial terms, the premier league isnt a closed shop in terms of clubs spending power anymore, and that includes wages. Look at Wolves for example, they are owned by the Fosun group, probably the second richest owners in the premier league behind Sheik Mansour at City and i'd say they are primed to break into the top six if they recruit well if not higher. The big thing that holds back teams in the Premier league from recruiting the best players isnt money, its league position. Generally, if your club plays in the champions league, they have an edge in terms of recruitment.

    The other leagues are a bit more difficult to crack for teams due to a lot of reasons i could go into but i dont think i will, not on this thread anyway, but the main one is probably a lot of politics.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2019

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