Anthony Seibold wipes Wayne Bennett’s legacy from Red Hill

[Wolfie]

Well I clearly stated top 4 but no premiership would be a good year and he clearly suggested that wouldn't be good enough so you tell me......

Missed this earlier, but i clearly suggested nothing of the sort, dont tell lies and put words into my mouth i never said. I said he doesn't deserve any slack. And as i said, he is now the head coach of the biggest NRL club and success should be demanded and it should be expected. The minute we start accepting anything less we are in trouble.

I think comparing us to clubs football clubs like Real Madrid, Man United, Bayern Munich and the like is a perfectly good comparison. They are the amongst the biggest, richest clubs in their competitions with the best facilities. They expect to be seriously challenging for trophies year in year out and failure really isnt tolerated. We are in that bracket in Rugby League circles, and we should demand exactly the same no matter who the coach is.

 

[Wolfie]

So it was for something else or for being out of premiership contention early. I don't follow it at all but makes sense.

He didnt achieve what was expected of him in terms of performance, so he got sacked. Julen Lopetegui had even less time at Real Madrid. Announced as head coach on 12 June 2018, sacked 29th October 2018. Nuno Espirito Santo was manager of arguably the biggest club in Portugal, Porto. They finished second in their competition, and they sacked him for not winning it. Big clubs have big expectations, and their head coaches never get and slack really. Its how it should be with a club like ours as well.

 

[tommy]

He didnt achieve what was expected of him in terms of performance, so he got sacked. Julen Lopetegui had even less time at Real Madrid. Announced as head coach on 12 June 2018, sacked 29th October 2018. Nuno Espirito Santo was manager of arguably the biggest club in Portugal, Porto. They finished second in their competition, and they sacked him for not winning it. Big clubs have big expectations, and their head coaches never get and slack really. Its how it should be with a club like ours as well.

Except there is only a small handful of suitable coaches available at any time, sometimes none. That's how we ended up with the Henjak\Griffin era. Our club would be very careful about sacking coaches on a whim in this comp.

 

[Eta Carinae]

Actually, clubs like Real Madrid and Man United are supposed to win their championship every year. And European Trophies and domestic Cup competitions on top of that.

Really? They don't have a salary cap either.

I don't think Seibold has to necessarily has to win a premiership but he certainly has to challenge. Our Mediocre 2018 still had us a mere 2 points behind the team that won the minor premiership and the Grand final. If Seibold can improve on that, and I think the expectation from him should be to improve on that, I see no reason we can't go close if he is the coach many of us think he is. I think it's more than fair to expect us to challenge strongly.

To be thrashed in the first week of the finals is a mediocre year. Let me reiterate my basic premise. To be top 4, i.e. seriously challenging for a premiership but falling short would be a good year. A mediocre year, like last year should be forgiven in his first year but we should expect continuous improvement for a least 2 or 3 years after that.

 

[Wolfie]

Really? They don't have a salary cap either.



To be thrashed in the first week of the finals is a mediocre year. Let me reiterate my basic premise. To be top 4, i.e. seriously challenging for a premiership but falling short would be a good year. A mediocre year, like last year should be forgiven in his first year but we should expect continuous improvement for a least 2 or 3 years after that.

Salary cap or not, they would still have the same expectations. It wouldnt change a thing. I must admit i did word my statement wrongly, it shouldnt have said supposed, i really should have said expected. I'm not quite sure you get it with those clubs i mentioned. Go onto a Man United message board, or a Real Madrid message boards and ask on there if they think not being title contenders is good enough. They expect to be right in there every season challenging.

Last year i would actually say was an inconsistent year anyway, not a mediocre one. If we were mediocre, wouldn't that mean we would have finished way lower than sixth and more than two points behind the top 2? I'd say the definition of mediocre last year was the Tigers, Raiders and Knights. Being thrashed in one game doesnt make the whole year mediocre, it just means we collapsed in one certain game. You would have a point if it happened every week.

A mediocre year for Seibold shouldnt be tolerated. If we are mediocre with our roster then Seibold should get sacked. I can handle us being inconsistent, thats not the same as mediocrity. We have a lot of younger guys, so i expect inconsistency to a point. Barring injury, i expect us to do better than achieving the 32 points we got this last year. We have Gillett back, we have an excellent group of forwards, We have better depth in the halves, Roberts and Bird hopefully will be a lot fitter and our younger guys from last year will be a bit smarter. The more i think about it, i'd actually say, unless we have any major injuries, anything less than surpassing the 2018 target should be judged as failure.

 

[Wolfie]

Except there is only a small handful of suitable coaches available at any time, sometimes none. That's how we ended up with the Henjak\Griffin era. Our club would be very careful about sacking coaches on a whim in this comp.

I'd say thats the same at any top class club though across any sport.

 

[tommy]

I'd say thats the same at any top class club though across any sport.

Yeah but in a sport like soccer there would be dozens of qualified coaches available at any given time, probably more.

 

[Wolfie]

Yeah but in a sport like soccer there would be dozens of qualified coaches available at any given time, probably more.

Probably not that many actually at the very top level suitable for the big sides.

 

[scobie]

He didnt achieve what was expected of him in terms of performance, so he got sacked. Julen Lopetegui had even less time at Real Madrid. Announced as head coach on 12 June 2018, sacked 29th October 2018. Nuno Espirito Santo was manager of arguably the biggest club in Portugal, Porto. They finished second in their competition, and they sacked him for not winning it. Big clubs have big expectations, and their head coaches never get and slack really. Its how it should be with a club like ours as well.

So using this rationale, why did it take so long to get rid of Wayne Bennett. If top clubs demand championships and coaches are allowed no slack, like the examples you've given, then sacking WB was the only logical thing to do at the end of 2016.

I personally don't believe that should have happened no more than I believe Anthony Seibold should be sacked if we don't win a premiership in the next two years. As a few other guys have said on here, if we keep improving and become more consistent, he'll have done a good job and put us in a position to challenge.

 

[Wolfie]

So using this rationale, why did it take so long to get rid of Wayne Bennett. If top clubs demand championships and coaches are allowed no slack, like the examples you've given, then sacking WB was the only logical thing to do at the end of 2016.

I personally don't believe that should have happened no more than I believe Anthony Seibold should be sacked if we don't win a premiership in the next two years. As a few other guys have said on here, if we keep improving and become more consistent, he'll have done a good job and put us in a position to challenge.

But I haven't said anything about Seibold getting the sack if he doesn't win a premiership. I said he shouldnt be given any leeway if we have a mediocre year. I just expect him to have us challenging strongly. If we can't at least match last year questions should be asked.

As for why we didn't sack Bennett In 2016, I don't see why we should have. We made the semi finals, we weren't that far away.

 

[scobie]

But I haven't said anything about Seibold getting the sack if he doesn't win a premiership. I said he shouldnt be given any leeway if we have a mediocre year. I just expect him to have us challenging strongly. If we can't at least match last year questions should be asked.

As for why we didn't sack Bennett In 2016, I don't see why we should have. We made the semi finals, we weren't that far away.

I'm agreeing with you that Bennett shouldn't have been sacked either after 2016. And all things considered I don't think there's any chance that we will have a mediocre year this year.
But to use the soccer comparison, if you look at what happened at Man City when Pep took over, the results and performances weren't instantaneous. It took a year to bed in his training and playing style. So even though his first year was a little underwhelming, no one was calling for his head. They had faith he would come good.
So if results don't go immediately to plan this year for Seibold, I believe we have to back him and maybe cut him a little slack. But only for this year!!

 

[Porthoz]

Sorry @Wolfie , but you cannot say the salary cap doesn't matter.
The reason clubs like Man U, Bayern, Real, Barcelona, Juventus, or even Porto have such high standards, is because of the lack of a salary cap.

They compete with a few (or often just one) other clubs for the domestic titles, while the overwhelming majority of the clubs in their competition, are pretty much fighting over the scraps... like a position high enough up the ladder that will allow them to enter the Europa League, or with a bit of luck, the Champions League.
Without a salary cap, those clubs must do with the leftovers of the top teams who are financially so much more powerful, they not only buy the best players in their country, they buy the best players from all the countries which cannot compete financially against these behemoths.

Even the Champions League has become a farce in that aspect. It takes something really special for a team outside of the cream from England, Germany, Italy or Spain to intrude in the business end of that competition, much less win it.
The last and only team to do this in the last 25 years was Porto in 2003 (UEFA Cup Winner) and 2004 (Champions League). They were consequently "raped" by the likes of Chelsea, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Man Utd, Bayern, etc... who offered obscene contracts and salaries, gutting the team of 2/3 of its players and the coach.
When Porto threatened to repeat the feat in 2011 by winning the Europa League with a very promising team, they didn't even get the chance to have a go in the Champions League, because those same clubs raided them again.

As much as your comparison is valid in terms of the Broncos being the elite of the NRL like those clubs are the elite of their respective comps, we don't have the advantages they have to be able to consistently demand titles, because the salary cap artificially "cuts our legs" and props others up.

If the NRL was like the EPL or any soccer league really, the Cowboys would have never won the competition, because they wouldn't have had Thurston, Scott, Morgan and Taumalolo in their team.
In fact, we'd probably see a Broncos - chooks GF every second or third year, with one of those two teams taking the trophy home every single season.

We're still the cream of the NRL, we still have the best stadium, culture, charisma and financial health.
Yes, we're in the city that is the beating heart of rugby league, we have the regular pick of one of the richest Rugby League catchment areas, and yes, we probably have the pick of the best coaches in the NRL (which are rare). That is why we should demand to at least be in the finals every season, but outside of that, all we can really demand from a coach, is to perform at the level commensurate with the roster under his command, and more importantly, show continuous improvement (herein, you have also the reasons for Bennett's sacking).

****, didn't intend to turn this into a text wall.

TL/DR: The Salary Cap cripples the Broncos too much to allow for comparisons with the top soccer teams, which don't have such a restriction.

 

[Huge]

Sorry @Wolfie , but your cannot say the salary cap doesn't matter.
The reason clubs like Man U, Bayern, Real, Barcelona, Juventus, or even Porto have such high standards, is because of the lack of a salary cap.

They compete with a few (or often just one) other clubs for the domestic titles, while the overwhelming majority of the clubs in their competition, are pretty much fighting over the scraps... like a position high enough up the ladder that will allow them to enter the Europa League, or with a bit of luck, the Champions League.
Without a salary cap, those clubs must do with the leftovers of the top teams who are financially so much more powerful, they not only buy the best players in their country, they buy the best players from all the countries which cannot compete financially against these behemoths.

Even the Champions League has become a farce in that aspect. It takes something really special for a team outside of the cream from England, Germany, Italy or Spain to intrude in the business end of that competition, much less win it.
The last and only team to do this in the last 25 years was Porto in 2003 (UEFA Cup Winner) and 2004 (Champions League). They were consequently "raped" by the likes of Chelsea, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Man Utd, Bayern, etc... who offered obscene contracts and salaries, gutting the team of 2/3 of its players and the coach.
When Porto threatened to repeat the feat in 2011 by winning the Europa League with a very promising team, they didn't even get the chance to have a go in the Champions League, because those same clubs raided them again.

As much as your comparison is valid in terms of the Broncos being the elite of the NRL like those clubs are the elite of their respective comps, we don't have the advantages they have to be able to consistently demand titles, because the salary cap artificially "cuts our legs" and props others up.

If the NRL was like the EPL or any soccer league really, the Cowboys would have never won the competition, because they wouldn't have had Thurston, Scott, Morgan and Taumalolo in their team.
In fact, we'd probably see a Broncos - chooks GF every second or third year, with one of those two teams taking the trophy home every single season.

We're still the cream of the NRL, we still have the best stadium, culture, charisma and financial health.
Yes, we're in the city that is the beating heart of rugby league, we have the regular pick of one of the richest Rugby League catchment areas, and yes, we probably have the pick of the best coaches in the NRL (which are rare). That is why we should demand to at least be in the finals every season, but outside of that, all we can really demand from a coach, is to perform at the level commensurate with the roster under his command, and more importantly, show continuous improvement (herein, you have also the reasons for Bennett's sacking).

****, didn't intend to turn this into a text wall.

TL/DR: The Salary Cap cripples the Broncos too much to allow for comparisons with the top soccer teams, which don't have such a restriction.

Trust me, that's not a text wall. It's a well written response and worthwhile reading.

 

[Wolfie]

I'm agreeing with you that Bennett shouldn't have been sacked either after 2016. And all things considered I don't think there's any chance that we will have a mediocre year this year.
But to use the soccer comparison, if you look at what happened at Man City when Pep took over, the results and performances weren't instantaneous. It took a year to bed in his training and playing style. So even though his first year was a little underwhelming, no one was calling for his head. They had faith he would come good.
So if results don't go immediately to plan this year for Seibold, I believe we have to back him and maybe cut him a little slack. But only for this year!!

Tbf, and not wanting to turn this into a debate about football, the Man City Pep inherited weren't the side they are now. They were an aging side with players not suited to how he has his team playing. He had a bit of rebuilding to do so in that situation then I'd actually say its fair to give a head coach a bit of time. I don't think we are in the same boat as I don't think we need a rebuild. In many ways, Football can have a lot more complexities when it comes to building a team than rugby league.

 

[Wolfie]

Sorry @Wolfie , but you cannot say the salary cap doesn't matter.
The reason clubs like Man U, Bayern, Real, Barcelona, Juventus, or even Porto have such high standards, is because of the lack of a salary cap.

They compete with a few (or often just one) other clubs for the domestic titles, while the overwhelming majority of the clubs in their competition, are pretty much fighting over the scraps... like a position high enough up the ladder that will allow them to enter the Europa League, or with a bit of luck, the Champions League.
Without a salary cap, those clubs must do with the leftovers of the top teams who are financially so much more powerful, they not only buy the best players in their country, they buy the best players from all the countries which cannot compete financially against these behemoths.

Even the Champions League has become a farce in that aspect. It takes something really special for a team outside of the cream from England, Germany, Italy or Spain to intrude in the business end of that competition, much less win it.
The last and only team to do this in the last 25 years was Porto in 2003 (UEFA Cup Winner) and 2004 (Champions League). They were consequently "raped" by the likes of Chelsea, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Man Utd, Bayern, etc... who offered obscene contracts and salaries, gutting the team of 2/3 of its players and the coach.
When Porto threatened to repeat the feat in 2011 by winning the Europa League with a very promising team, they didn't even get the chance to have a go in the Champions League, because those same clubs raided them again.

As much as your comparison is valid in terms of the Broncos being the elite of the NRL like those clubs are the elite of their respective comps, we don't have the advantages they have to be able to consistently demand titles, because the salary cap artificially "cuts our legs" and props others up.

If the NRL was like the EPL or any soccer league really, the Cowboys would have never won the competition, because they wouldn't have had Thurston, Scott, Morgan and Taumalolo in their team.
In fact, we'd probably see a Broncos - chooks GF every second or third year, with one of those two teams taking the trophy home every single season.

We're still the cream of the NRL, we still have the best stadium, culture, charisma and financial health.
Yes, we're in the city that is the beating heart of rugby league, we have the regular pick of one of the richest Rugby League catchment areas, and yes, we probably have the pick of the best coaches in the NRL (which are rare). That is why we should demand to at least be in the finals every season, but outside of that, all we can really demand from a coach, is to perform at the level commensurate with the roster under his command, and more importantly, show continuous improvement (herein, you have also the reasons for Bennett's sacking).

****, didn't intend to turn this into a text wall.

TL/DR: The Salary Cap cripples the Broncos too much to allow for comparisons with the top soccer teams, which don't have such a restriction.

I think Leicester City put a bit of a spanner in the works though with your arguments!

I totally get your points, the big clubs do have an advantage without the salary cap no doubt, but at the same time there are plenty of clubs in that top end bracket with money that compete against each other. You have six clubs in England for example with money to burn, probably 8 if you look at what Wolves and Everton are capable of spending.

Brisbane do have an advantage over other NRL clubs (apart from the rorters ) with our third party deals and other kick backs they get. Couple of the guys I know who have left Brisbane in the last couple of years have commented about how good they had it at Brisbane compared to their current clubs. I know it's not necessarily salary cap related, but the Broncos players have the best of everything, don't think that happens elsewhere.

 

[Swiss pete]

I think Leicester City put a bit of a spanner in the works though with your arguments!

I totally get your points, the big clubs do have an advantage without the salary cap no doubt, but at the same time there are plenty of clubs in that top end bracket with money that compete against each other. You have six clubs in England for example with money to burn, probably 8 if you look at what Wolves and Everton are capable of spending.

Brisbane do have an advantage over other NRL clubs (apart from the rorters ) with our third party deals and other kick backs they get. Couple of the guys I know who have left Brisbane in the last couple of years have commented about how good they had it at Brisbane compared to their current clubs. I know it's not necessarily salary cap related, but the Broncos players have the best of everything, don't think that happens elsewhere.

Epl players value.
Chelsea 885,75 mill
Newcastle United 159.03
It's not really a level playing field

 

[Wolfie]

Epl players value.
Chelsea 885,75 mill
Newcastle United 159.03
It's not really a level playing field

But I presume you understand why Newcastle have spent so much less that chelsea

 

[john1420]

It's an elite competition with a salary cap attempting to even the contest

Winning the thing takes an enormous amount of skill, dedication and even luck

But the Broncos are/were and should be a benchmark club

We can't win it every year but we should be in the hunt every year, and that probably means top 4

Top 8 would be the bare minimum expectation, with top 4 considered a successful year

The coach should be hauled before the board with a "please explain" in any season where we don't make the top 4

Not saying he should be sacked, but he needs a justifiable rationale