Ashes Discussion

[Fernando]

I could put a fairly extensive list of better spin bowlers than Lyon. I think he's of similar ilk to Graeme Swann and Dan Vettori. He deserves to be remembered as a solid bowler but he's far from the goat or any great generational talent.

I think he’s been better than solid but considering the absolute trash we’ve tried since Warne left, a solid spin option is like gold.

 

[Sproj]

I don't mind him hanging on for a year or three or use Swepson as a second spinner / stop gap. I know its early but man, Sangha looks like he could be the one but he's still extremely green.

 

[BroncosFever]

Lyon is so great because of his consistency, that's literally what makes him so good.

It's not that he can spin it 90 degrees, has 3 mystery balls, none of that. It's his ability to consistently bowl good balls and asks batsmen to take risks on a test match pitch that is probably deteriorating. He doesn't need variation, he gets that off the wicket.

I think when he retires we will appreciate how good he was, we have some decent spinners going around but I would be confident in saying at least once every 2-3 overs the batter will get a rank half tracker that they can belt into the next suburb, Nathan Lyon doesn't give them those kind of deliveries and again, that's what makes him so good.

 

[The True King]

Lyon is so great because of his consistency, that's literally what makes him so good.

It's not that he can spin it 90 degrees, has 3 mystery balls, none of that. It's his ability to consistently bowl good balls and asks batsmen to take risks on a test match pitch that is probably deteriorating. He doesn't need variation, he gets that off the wicket.

I think when he retires we will appreciate how good he was, we have some decent spinners going around but I would be confident in saying at least once every 2-3 overs the batter will get a rank half tracker that they can belt into the next suburb, Nathan Lyon doesn't give them those kind of deliveries and again, that's what makes him so good.

Agree he is consistent but I don't think he's always a wicket taking threat. His economy is basically 3RPO, again he will be the second highest economy for bowlers with 400+ test wickets, only better than Dale Steyn. While he doesn't offer up pies, he very rarely maintains the pressure in terms of dot balls. Batsmen have never struggled to rotate strike against him, which is annoying when you have a strike bowler up the other end.

Of our bowlers, Lyon is by far the most targeted. Against the Indians he was their whipping boy. That works for him in that batsmen are taking risks and naturally he will pick up wickets, especially against lower order players trying to score quickly.

So when talking about replacing him in the side, you talk about people from other countries, and some who aren't even playing any more.

If you don't think he is in the side, how about comparing to his actual competition, and that narrows that discussion down to Mitch Swepson. How is Swepson a better choice?

I personally think it should have been SOK all along. His numbers are far superior to Lyon's and always were.

I would love to see Swepson get a go, his numbers are very similar to those Lyon had when he was first picked and we will never really know how good he could be if he doesn't get a shot.

Don't watch enough shield these days to comment on the young crop coming through. I just know I have watched Lyon for long enough to know we can do better.

 

[BooKhaki]

Agree he is consistent but I don't think he's always a wicket taking threat. His economy is basically 3RPO, again he will be the second highest economy for bowlers with 400+ test wickets, only better than Dale Steyn.

Of our bowlers, Lyon is by far the most targeted. Against the Indians he was their whipping boy. That works for him in that batsmen are taking risks and naturally he will pick up wickets, especially lower order players.





I personally think it should have been SOK all along. His numbers are far superior to Lyon's and always were.

I would love to see Swepson get a go, his numbers are very similar to those Lyon had when he was first picked and we will never really know how good he could be if he doesn't get a shot.

Don't watch enough shield these days to comment on the young crop coming through. I just know I have watched Lyon for long enough to know we can do better.

You haven't seen any body do any better, but just by watching Lyon you assume someone could do a better job? That's a really smart way to pick a test side.

 

[Sproj]

I know it isn't Ashes-related but if you are on Kayo / Fox, have a look at the air quality in the India / NZ test, absolutely disgusting. I've lived in a country with air like that, not fun, not fun at all.

 

[BroncosFever]

Agree he is consistent but I don't think he's always a wicket taking threat. His economy is basically 3RPO, again he will be the second highest economy for bowlers with 400+ test wickets, only better than Dale Steyn. While he doesn't offer up pies, he very rarely maintains the pressure in terms of dot balls. Batsmen have never struggled to rotate strike against him, which is annoying when you have a strike bowler up the other end.

Of our bowlers, Lyon is by far the most targeted. Against the Indians he was their whipping boy. That works for him in that batsmen are taking risks and naturally he will pick up wickets, especially against lower order players trying to score quickly.

That's not just Nathan Lyon who is targeted mate, every batting unit in world cricket knows that if you take down the oppositions spinner it opens it up as he's the guy who is going to give the quicks a breather, you can't have quicks bowling all day, it's too hard on them.

That's the game right there, you get on top of the spinner and you dominate with the bat, if you can't get on top of him.. he bowls line and length 20 overs a day then you get fresh quicks charging in for short bursts, Nathan Lyon is the key to our attack. He's not easy to get on top of, India have some fantastic batters and they love spin so you have to give them credit for being able to dominate last summer. Will England be able to do it as effectively? I am going to say no.

 

[The True King]

You haven't seen any body do any better, but just by watching Lyon you assume someone could do a better job? That's a really smart way to pick a test side.

I have seen people do better, I saw SOK outbowl him on the sub-continent and I have seen numerous shield scorecards in recent years where he has worse figures than the opposition spinner. That's enough to suggest to me that we could do better.

Look at Labu, sometimes you just have to throw a guy in the deep end and see what happens. I don't think we get anywhere when you keep picking the same mediocre guy over and over expecting something different, surely we learnt that from Shaun Marsh.

That's not just Nathan Lyon who is targeted mate, every batting unit in world cricket knows that if you take down the oppositions spinner it opens it up as he's the guy who is going to give the quicks a breather, you can't have quicks bowling all day, it's too hard on them.

That's the game right there, you get on top of the spinner and you dominate with the bat, if you can't get on top of him.. he bowls line and length 20 overs a day then you get fresh quicks charging in for short bursts, Nathan Lyon is the key to our attack. He's not easy to get on top of, India have some fantastic batters and they love spin so you have to give them credit for being able to dominate last summer. Will England be able to do it as effectively? I am going to say no.

They dominated last summer because he bowled like crap, as did Starc. Give them all the credit you want but if he was actually a wicket taking threat we may have won that series.

I agree that we will roll England, with or without Lyon.

 

[BooKhaki]

I have seen people do better, I saw SOK outbowl him on the sub-continent and I have seen numerous shield scorecards in recent years where he has worse figures than the opposition spinner. That's enough to suggest to me that we could do better.

Look at Labu, sometimes you just have to throw a guy in the deep end and see what happens. I don't think we get anywhere when you keep picking the same mediocre guy over and over expecting something different, surely we learnt that from Shaun Marsh.


They dominated last summer because he bowled like crap, as did Starc. Give them all the credit you want but if he was actually a wicket taking threat we may have won that series.

I agree that we will roll England, with or without Lyon.

Again, you keep comparing him to former players.

Did you seriously just go with the "he did better the last time they played" argument? In Steve Smith's last FC match he scored less runs than Nathan Lyon. Should we consider Lyon as an option for #6 seeing he can outscore the best bat in the world?

 

[The True King]

Again, you keep comparing him to former players.

Did you seriously just go with the "he did better the last time they played" argument? In Steve Smith's last FC match he scored less runs than Nathan Lyon. Should we consider Lyon as an option for #6 seeing he can outscore the best bat in the world?

Is that the argument I made?

I made reference to the numerous scorecards I have seen, not one specific game. No need to be silly.

You want me to compare him to a current player - Swepson averaged 25 with the ball last season, why can't he be picked instead?

The guy is basically Graeme Swann 2.0, I have no idea why he's such a protected species.

 

[BooKhaki]

Is that the argument I made?

I made reference to the numerous scorecards I have seen, not one specific game. No need to be silly.

You want me to compare him to a current player - Swepson averaged 25 with the ball last season, why can't he be picked instead?

The guy is basically Graeme Swann 2.0, I have no idea why he's such a protected species.

Swepson did that in bowler friendly shield conditions, and he still averaged 25. Look at Lyon in tests in 2020 and he averaged under 20. Nathan Lyon has been a consistent wicket taker at test level for years, he is generally our highest or 2nd highest wicket taker each year. And you wanna get rid of a bloke with 399 test wickets cuz you think a bloke might be able to do a similar job.

I don't think anybody is saying he is a generational talent, or will blast teams out, but he is comfortably our best spinner, has been for years, and that won't change for years.

 

[mitch222]

It was never going to be easy to replace Warne but Lyon has done an acceptable job for years now. He cops a lot of shit from some but lets be honest, there is absolutely no one else in the Australian setup who can challenge him consistently. Hell even Warne had McGill to challenge him. Lyon has no one. And for a perceived bad bowler **** he does take a lot of wickets consistently for some reason. And the batsmen target him excuse, **** me, name a side that doesn't target spinners especially in Australia

 

[The True King]

Clearly upset some people here with the Lyon chat.

I'll leave him be for now, but I'll be here for you all when he has another mediocre summer.

 

[BooKhaki]

Clearly upset some people here with the Lyon chat.

I'll leave him be for now, but I'll be here for you all when he has another mediocre summer.

You think you've upset people, because people bring up facts to dispute your poor judgment?

 

[1910]

Lyon is so great because of his consistency, that's literally what makes him so good.

It's not that he can spin it 90 degrees, has 3 mystery balls, none of that. It's his ability to consistently bowl good balls and asks batsmen to take risks on a test match pitch that is probably deteriorating. He doesn't need variation, he gets that off the wicket.

I think when he retires we will appreciate how good he was, we have some decent spinners going around but I would be confident in saying at least once every 2-3 overs the batter will get a rank half tracker that they can belt into the next suburb, Nathan Lyon doesn't give them those kind of deliveries and again, that's what makes him so good.

People don’t appreciate/understand his craft.

Finger spin for Australians has proven near impossible for 140 years. Lyon is closing in on 400 wickets- his nearest Australian off spinner Trumble 141 wickets and played 116 years ago.

So we have had two in 116 years and Lyon has smashed the silver medal by 260 wickets and climbing.

Finger spin for Australia has been a death certificate.

 

[The True King]

You think you've upset people, because people bring up facts to dispute your poor judgment?

People don’t appreciate/understand his craft.

Finger spin for Australians has proven near impossible for 140 years. Lyon is closing in on 400 wickets- his nearest Australian off spinner Trumble 141 wickets and played 116 years ago.

So we have had two in 116 years and Lyon has smashed the silver medal by 260 wickets and climbing.

Finger spin for Australia has been a death certificate.

Herath played 7 tests fewer and had 34 more wickets.
Aswin has played 20 tests fewer and has 19 more wickets.
Harbajan played 4 more tests and has 18 more wickets.

If he's our best ever that says more about us than him. None of those guys are in the conversation with Warne/Murali and nor is Lyon.

It should also tell us that finger spin is a waste of time because we've been bloody successful without it.

 

[Sproj]

Herath played 7 tests fewer and had 34 more wickets.
Aswin has played 20 tests fewer and has 19 more wickets.
Harbajan played 4 more tests and has 18 more wickets.

If he's our best ever that says more about us than him. None of those guys are in the conversation with Warne/Murali and nor is Lyon.

It should also tell us that finger spin is a waste of time because we've been bloody successful without it.

Be fair, those guys also play the majority of tests on dust bowls.

 

[The True King]

Be fair, those guys also play the majority of tests on dust bowls.

In India, Lyon averages 30.58. In Asia that average drops to 31.24. In Sri Lanka he averages 33.58.

Yasir Shah, by comparison, averaged 19.33 in Sri Lanka and 25.39 in Asia. Didn't play in India but in the UAE he averaged 24.56. In those same conditions Lyon averaged 53.80.

I could pull up any of the guys records above and they would tell a similar story. His numbers should be better in Asia (on said dust bowls) and they're just not.