Barba vs Boyd

[Porthoz]

Now there's an excellent example of selectively picking the stats you want as well as only a fraction of what I said to support your view, or in other words... grasping at straws. :wink:

The heart of my claim, and something that keeps being diminished, is that there is no justification for Boyd's cost (minimally what his current Newcastle contract is), given the players we have in our roster. My argument is that Barba has infinitely more upside than Boyd, and that Bennett will not be able to be objective about Darius, due to their relationship, that Boyd is not worth the massive extra cost, and that he simply is not needed.

I don't know where your stats come from, but things like running away from bombs is not counted anywhere, while dropping a bomb is. There's also no try saving tackles for example, 2 things where both Barba and Hoffman excel for example.

P.S. I completely forgot about Kahu besides all the other guys. He's another fullback (although he hasn't played much in the last few years) full of potential.

 

[Kimlo]

Where you getting the information that Boyd's contract value has to be carried over? If he gets a release, he's then free to renegotiate terms and as long as the NRL sees the deal as reasonable for a player of his standing, they will register that amount under the cap. Why does he have to be registered at his supposed value of 600k if we end up offering him, say 450k?

 

[broncos4life]

Now there's an excellent example of selectively picking the stats you want as well as only a fraction of what I said to support your view, or in other words... grasping at straws. :wink:

The heart of my claim, and something that keeps being diminished, is that there is no justification for Boyd's cost (minimally what his current Newcastle contract is), given the players we have in our roster. My argument is that Barba has infinitely more upside than Boyd, and that Bennett will not be able to be objective about Darius, due to their relationship, that Boyd is not worth the massive extra cost, and that he simply is not needed.

I don't know where your stats come from, but things like running away from bombs is not counted anywhere, while dropping a bomb is. There's also no try saving tackles for example, 2 things where both Barba and Hoffman excel for example.

P.S. I completely forgot about Kahu besides all the other guys. He's another fullback (although he hasn't played much in the last few years) full of potential.

I understand what you are saying, but at the end of the day potential is just that, potential.

It's fine to say that barba has more upside and yes if all the planets align barba does have more upside, but as things currently stand that looks incredibly unlikely.

Boyd has less potential to do the freakish things that barba can do when everything is working, however he plays his role more often than barba does the freakish things, so Bennett knows he can rely on that.

Now I love barba and hope we can someone keep him/use him. As I have previously said I can't see any reason why he couldn't be successful off the bench or the wing, I mean he is quick and knows how to finish a try, not exactly criteria that takes away from the wing, but anyway that's another point. What I was trying to say Is that I would love to see barba get back to his 2012 heights but realistically I just cannot see it happening

 

[broncos4life]

Where you getting the information that Boyd's contract value has to be carried over? If he gets a release, he's then free to renegotiate terms and as long as the NRL sees the deal as reasonable for a player of his standing, they will register that amount under the cap. Why does he have to be registered at his supposed value of 600k if we end up offering him, say 450k?

He doesn't have to be registered for that amount mate, I'm not sure where this info is coming from. If he is released from his contract the only stipulation is that our contract would have to be palatable to the salary cap auditor.

 

[subsbligh]

It's bullshit. Market price should be what the player accepts as a salary from the club on an open book basis.

Have the club, player and agent sign a statutory declaration that no additional side contracts or agreements are in place. Have the registration conditional on immediate termination of the player's contract for the rest of the season, deduction of 10 competition points from the club and 12 month sanctions against the player and agent for any false declarations found to be made.

It would also have repercussions under the Oaths Act (i.e. it's a criminal offence).

Player, agent and club should all be equally responsible for salary cap breaches. In this day and age, and after the Storm debacle, and to a degree the Sharks doping scandal, all players need to take more responsibility in their dealings with the club.

That's a sufficient deterrent and market equaliser for deals that sound "too good to be true". It also pushes regulation back onto the player and club to manage the risk in their negotiations, to undertake their own due diligence at the time of making the contract. The player's contract could have a liquidated damages (i.e. pay lost earnings during suspension year) clause and indemnity for lost earnings during the suspension period, should the club be doing the dodgy behind his back.

How does the salary cap audtior (SCA) assign a discount from market value for Boyd's "loyalty"/desire to play with Bennett.

So say Boyd is apparently valued at $600K on the open market, does he pluck a figure out of the air and call it $450K allowing $150K a season for the Bennett discount?

Conversely, if Brisbane pay $600K a season where open market would be $600K, aren't we actually discounting the $150K and he should be registered for $750K against our salary cap. Otherwise $150K of value that Boyd is receiving is not recorded against the Broncos salary cap and Brisbane have $150K of additional player value.

So, Chris Sandow for example. The Eels paid probably $300K a season to much for him on his $600K deal. Is he recorded at $600K or the arbitrary $300K market value?

What about drops in form. Ben Barba at the end of 2012 (when he signed a 3 year deal with the Bulldogs?) is probably worth $600K a season, at least. Now, he will be lucky to make first grade next year so his actual market value more like $200-300K per season (a Jack Reed sort of player). His 3 year contract is registered at 600K value, surely then we should be entitled to an offset for the remaining year against the salary cap as his market value is dramatically reduced.

That's $400K we could have to sign another player to our squad.

It's a stupid rule.

 

[Broncoman]

Result ? The statement that Barba is better defensively is absolutely false.

It's a myth that Ben Barba is strong in defence just get a forward to run at him and he just walks out of the way and doesn't even try sometimes.

 

[jarro65]

It's a myth that Ben Barba is strong in defence just get a forward to run at him and he just walks out of the way and doesn't even try sometimes.

.. and then other times he stops what looks like a certain try by getting himself underneath the attacker as he's about to put the ball over the line ???

Really, if a fullback is having to tackle a forward one on one then somebody in the line hasn't done their job.

 

[Porthoz]

He doesn't have to be registered for that amount mate, I'm not sure where this info is coming from. If he is released from his contract the only stipulation is that our contract would have to be palatable to the salary cap auditor.

That's not correct. Under the Salary cap rules and guidelines, when a player is released from a contract at a club to move to a different club, he will have to be registered for at least the same amount at the new club.

Say the value is $600K and the Broncos want to pay $450K, Newcastle would have to agree to pay the remaining $150K.

 

[broncos4life]

That's not correct. Under the Salary cap rules and guidelines, when a player is released from a contract at a club to move to a different club, he will have to be registered for at least the same amount at the new club.

Say the value is $600K and the Broncos want to pay $450K, Newcastle would have to agree to pay the remaining $150K.

I thought that was in the case that the club wanted to offload the player. As in if Newcastle wanted to get rid of Boyd but couldnt find someone to take his full wage, they would have to pay him the remaining amount (to make sure that the player is not out of pocket). Where as if Boyd wants to leave and is requesting that his contract be terminated, why would that have any bearing on what he signs elsewhere? he requested it. My understanding was this rule was there to protect players when clubs try to move them on.

I'm not saying I'm right or your wrong, just that it makes no sense. Which means it is probably right because pretty much everything the NRL does makes no sense

 

[lynx000]

That's not correct. Under the Salary cap rules and guidelines, when a player is released from a contract at a club to move to a different club, he will have to be registered for at least the same amount at the new club.

Say the value is $600K and the Broncos want to pay $450K, Newcastle would have to agree to pay the remaining $150K.

Is this something you have been told, or something you have actually read from the salary cap rules/guidelines, because I agree with some of the other posts that it does not sound correct to me. I have tried to do a bit of research and nothing I have been able to find confirms your contention. Can you provide a link as to where this information has come from?

 

[Porthoz]

I thought that was in the case that the club wanted to offload the player. As in if Newcastle wanted to get rid of Boyd but couldnt find someone to take his full wage, they would have to pay him the remaining amount (to make sure that the player is not out of pocket). Where as if Boyd wants to leave and is requesting that his contract be terminated, why would that have any bearing on what he signs elsewhere? he requested it. My understanding was this rule was there to protect players when clubs try to move them on.

I'm not saying I'm right or your wrong, just that it makes no sense. Which means it is probably right because pretty much everything the NRL does makes no sense

I know what you're saying and it makes sense, but remeber that for a contract to be terminated, it generally has to be agreed by both parties anyway. As far as the Salary cap goes, it's irrelevant who initiated the release, as a club will only agree to it, if it benefits them (look at Milford). Regardless it only looks at the value a player was registered for.

This happened recently a few times too, I just can't remember with whom...

 

[Porthoz]

Is this something you have been told, or something you have actually read from the salary cap rules/guidelines, because I agree with some of the other posts that it does not sound correct to me. I have tried to do a bit of research and nothing I have been able to find confirms your contention. Can you provide a link as to where this information has come from?

Read in the salary cap guidelines, but it's a pain to find the link on the NRL site.
As I said above, it as happened recently too, I just can't remember the players it applied to.

Every time a player moves club while still under contract, this comes up.

It's like the November 1 deadline, but in reverse... this rule actually exists. :laugh:

 

[Huge]

Now there's an excellent example of selectively picking the stats you want as well as only a fraction of what I said to support your view, or in other words... grasping at straws. :wink:

The heart of my claim, and something that keeps being diminished, is that there is no justification for Boyd's cost (minimally what his current Newcastle contract is), given the players we have in our roster. My argument is that Barba has infinitely more upside than Boyd, and that Bennett will not be able to be objective about Darius, due to their relationship, that Boyd is not worth the massive extra cost, and that he simply is not needed.

I don't know where your stats come from, but things like running away from bombs is not counted anywhere, while dropping a bomb is. There's also no try saving tackles for example, 2 things where both Barba and Hoffman excel for example.

P.S. I completely forgot about Kahu besides all the other guys. He's another fullback (although he hasn't played much in the last few years) full of potential.

Talk about selective ,Jesus ! You claimed that Barba was better than Boyd defensively and that's exactly what I highlighted and took exception to. I did not dispute other things in your statement, why don't you just say it out loud again....Barba is better defensively in your opinion even though the stats do not support that. Stop trying to muddy things by banging on about Boyds cost, something you seem to know very little about. Boyd can easily start work for 300 thousand at the Broncos, it's got sod all to do with the NRL who do not set the value. The market does. You sure come up with rubbish
at times Porthoz.

I am not arguing about any other point other than your silly baseless claim to Barbas having a better defensive ability...have you got that, is that clear enough for comprehension ?

 

[Porthoz]

No, it's not... please explain it again, and if possible make me a drawing.
You know I cannot be expected to achieve your level of comprehension, you'd easily beat me with experience! :takdir:

 

[Mr Fourex]

A fullback who makes a shit load of errors.....hmmm, pass.

I wonder if there is a stat that inicates just how many of those errors lead directly to points being scored against.

 

[Mr Fourex]

Now I love barba and hope we can someone keep him/use him. As I have previously said I can't see any reason why he couldn't be successful off the bench or the wing, I mean he is quick and knows how to finish a try, not exactly criteria that takes away from the wing, but anyway that's another point. What I was trying to say Is that I would love to see barba get back to his 2012 heights but realistically I just cannot see it happening

Barba on the wing = a slow, short winger who can't catch. No thanks!

 

[Porthoz]

A fullback who makes a shit load of errors.....hmmm, pass.

I wonder if there is a stat that inicates just how many of those errors lead directly to points being scored against.

It's also the guy with most try saves. He may drop a few bombs, but at least he doesn't run away from them...

 

[Renegade]

The only place I could see barba if boyd comes and milford plays 6 is off the bench as a utility, kinda like a shaun berrigan.

I don't see him making a good centre and think he'd be majorly exposed if on the wing.

Think he could make a serious fist of it though if he was given a roving job for about 25-30mins a game.