Golden boot winners

[Ari Gold]

I watched almost every Warriors game twice and I also rarely saw the sort of performances that SJ was able to do in the Four Nations.

I don't remember SJ ever performing super brilliantly for the Warriors. I'll stop short of saying 4N final quality though as I never watched it because, well, its International league.

But your point was the only thing SJ has over Hunt is that he's been around for longer. And that's not true IMO. SJ is significantly more talented. At some point that has to translate to runs on the board of course, but I find it hard to believe that Hunt has more natural talent.

The thing that keeps this as a debate and not as an SJ whitewash is that Hunt is much better mentally. If SJ can catch up in that regard he'll run away from Hunt in the best halfback debate as quickly as he'd physically run away from Hunt.

Yes, stats don't tell the whole story, but you can't push aside stats such as try assists, line break assists, line breaks, tackle busts and tries, when that's what the halves job is - to create try's, create line breaks, make line breaks. The fact Johnson wasn't able to do much of that shows his inconsistency. There's no use being able to come up with miraculous plays once every 5 games, with average performances in between.

There's not, but I think SJ is getting better each season. Ignoring comparisons with anyone, I think SJ has improved each year, particularly this year in his maturity. If the 4N display can act as a catalyst for it all coming together, then 2015 could be anything.

Of course, it's only international league. It's about as important as a dead rubber in the Ashes, so maybe SJ's 4N is like Shane Watson doing well when it doesn't matter. Time will tell which it is, but for mine SJ is immensely talented and could be anything.

That said, I thought the same of Shane Watson 10 years ago!

 

[Ari Gold]

PS [MENTION=1899]Big Pete[/MENTION] I think Hunt has a significantly better running game than SJ. SJ's running game IMO is actually a bit average, but that gets masked a bit by SJ's blinding speed. SJ doesn't have the show and go and the quality of his dummy isn't at the same level. Its actually one area where I think he can make a big jump. SJ shows his speed in support and on intercepts, but I don't think he looks to use it enough as part of his running game.

 

[Big Pete]

Hunt's running game is one dimensional, it's a show and go which worked against the also-rans but was exposed against the better teams who didn't fall for it as much.

SJ's running game troubles the best teams and his foot-work is in the top three of the competition.

 

[Mr Fourex]

The thing that keeps this as a debate and not as an SJ whitewash is that Hunt is much better mentally.

How is Hunt much better mentally...?

On several occasions Brisbane this year needed their half to take control of the game and close it out. Hunt came up empty and dare I say it...was almost MIA, 9 times out of 10.

Johnson needs to work on his consistency and when to pick the time for the smart play vs the SJ magic play.

Other than defence, Sean Johnson is a by far more talented player than Ben Hunt ever will be.

 

[Ari Gold]

Really don't agree that Hunt went MIA 9 times out of 10. I thought he stepped up a lot in close games and though we did lose too many of them I think Hunt's role in them was more that he was the reason he got us so close, rather than the reason we lost.

I mean, for the most part he had Josh Hoffman as his halves partner and McCullough as his hooker. He was in many ways carrying us, and he seemed a lot more comfortable being the only playmaker/hope in the team than what SJ has throughout his whole career. Though I think that could change in 2015.

But I'm really not going to argue you on this one. You agree SJ is clearly the more talented player, and I completely, 100% agree.

 

[Alec]

Let me elaborate on that a little, if you go back and check a lot of those stats circa 2006-08, you'll see Brett Finch leading in a lot of those categories. Did anyone rate Finch over Cronk? Hell no.

Link to those stats?

Cooper Cronk was very overrated in those early years anyway IMO.

 

[Big Pete]

Round 26 2006 Big League
Finals Week 1 2007
Finals Week 1 2008

Admittedly, Cronk wasn't the best example to use either but again, that was my second pick because I didn't want to put SJ and Lockyer in the same sentence and commit blasphemy around the holidays.

But look through those and you'll see guys like Grant Rovelli, Ben Roberts, Tim Smith, Brett Finch out-ranking far better talents.

 

[Ari Gold]

Tim Smith was a super talent!

Just never reached his potential. If he did, I think he'd be the incumbent Qld halfback.

 

[Big Pete]

Not by 2007.

By that point, no one was ranking him above the likes of JT, Prince or Lockyer.

 

[Porthoz]

SJ is a super talent and can do freakish stuff, but I've never seen him perform when his team isn't going well.
Much like Tomkins, he will thrive when his team is on song, but will go in his shell and falter when his team needs him most.

Over 2014, in his first full NRL season, Hunt was easily the better player imo, and despite the significant difference in talent, I'd rather have Hunt than SJ for 2015.

I can see Hunt reach Cronk levels through commitment and hard work, much like Cooper himself does, and even though there will be games where SJ will murder and pillage, I doubt SJ will ever reach the consistency a premiership winning team needs.

 

[bazza]

Johnson, in my opinion plays a bit like a five-eighth, rather than a traditional halfback. He doesn't necessarily control the game like a Cronk or a Thurston, although he's getting better at it. He needs a halves partner to control things, which allows him to inject himself with pure magic. Its no coincidence he's best football comes in international football where he's partnered by Foran.

Hopefully Milford can be our version of having a player like a Johnson or a Benji Marshall, who can come up with extraordinary plays from scratch.

 

[bazza]

Back to the actual Golden Boot award, and how its awarded predominantly from international football, imagine if someone like Ben Roberts had an outstanding four nations campaign and was better than every other player in the tournament, would he be crowned the world's best player? It just seems a bit of a farce that someone can be awarded the world's best based off of four games.

 

[Big Pete]

Foran's presence certainly helped but I think the key difference between club and rep was the forwards. I think the likes of Bromwich, Harris, Taupau, Eastwood laid a tremendous platform and offered plenty of second phase which gave SJ more of an opportunity to use that foot-work of his and really create opportunities that most wouldn't be able to.

JT is in a similar boat. I remember there were a few seasons where JT seemed a little down on form, but come Origin time, the difference Cam Smith made to his game was extraordinary where as, at club level, he wasn't as dominant and I didn't think he was the form half at that level.

As for the award itself, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it decided by English jouranlists? It isn't really all that it's cracked up to be, which is why I'm okay that they give their mickey mouse award to a player who's currently still playing, has momentum and could do with that on his resume. It's a win for the game as far as I'm concerned and most pundits wouldn't think twice.

Similar deal with the whole Immortals deal. Cool name, but when the likes of Rothfield, Rabs and Hadley are apart of the selection committee, I don't really get all bent up about a drug cheat like Andrew Johns being selected.

 

[Alec]

SJ should be thanking Sheens for the award.

 

[Big Pete]

As much as Sheens needs to go, any coach in the game would have struggled against that Kiwis outfit given the personnel that was available and the shape they were in.

 

[Super Freak]

I think Cleary had a lot to do with the win.

Sheens can stay. Once Australia get their players back, kiwis will go back to being shit.

 

[Morkel]

As much as Sheens needs to go, any coach in the game would have struggled against that Kiwis outfit given the personnel that was available and the shape they were in.

Any coach with that 25 would have struggled, but not many coaches would put themself in a position of only having two props available.

 

[Big Pete]

Which is apart of the reason he needs to go but then again, I couldn't see the likes of McGuire, Lawrence, Lillyman, Tolman etc being able to match it with the Kiwis pack.

They were just too good and the players that we needed like Mat Scott, Andrew Fifita, Drug Cheat etc. weren't available.