I hate the media!

[Coxy]

I'm starting to feel deeply traumatised from the economic slowdown too. Should I acuse someone of something?

I don't believe her story at all, she seems like yet another drug bubbly idiot who wants to hook up with a footy player.

Obviously. Possibly even 2.

Doubt she really wanted to be the entertainment for 12 blokes though.

So what of these other 11 guys? Should they also lose their current job? You'd have to think that some of the players involved would still be playing in the nrl today

See my earlier post. Matt Johns and Brett Firman apparently are the ones that "hooked up" with this girl. They're the ones who had a duty of care and a position of trust with this girl. The others are responsible for their own behaviour in that situation, yes, but Johns and Firman had a duty of care to ensure that she indeed was comfortable and consented to the escalation of the situation.

They're easily the most culpable.

 

[gUt]

yeah so let me get this straight, did these guys force themselves on this girl ......

As far as anyone here knows, no.

 

[mrslong]

yeah so let me get this straight, did these guys force themselves on this girl ......

As far as anyone here knows, no.

[eusa_doh
ah, they kind of did......

Here is an exerpt of her interview. You can see the full thing at this link http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/ ... 567972.htm

CLARE: They were massive, like ah big Rugby players, I felt that I just had no idea what to do.

There was always hands on me and there was always um, if one person had stopped, someone was touching me and doing something else. There was never a point where I was not being handled.

Every time I looked up, there would be more and more people in the room and um there's lot, lots of guys in the room watching, ah maybe two or three that were on the bed that were doing stuff to me.

SARAH FERGUSON: Can you try and tell me what some of those things were?

CLARE: They flipped me over quite a bit and got out their penises and would put like, put them on my face and stuff and like maybe two guys would rub them on my face and things like that and yeah.

SARAH FERGUSON: What were the others doing while that was happening?

CLARE: They were I don't like know how to say it, um but masturbating yeah themselves while watching.
-----

He told Four Corners he knew that one day this incident would catch up with him.

CLARE: He laughed and he joked and he very loud and boisterous and thought it was hilarious and you know kept it going.

SARAH FERGUSON: Matthew Johns and fellow player Brett Firman told Four Corners they were the first players to have sex with Clare, Firman said "she was up for it a hundred per cent".

Johns denies he kept it going, saying when he had finished he quote "took a step back."

CLARE: They never spoke to me, they spoke just to themselves, amongst themselves, laughing and thinking it was really funny. When you have sex with someone and it's nice and you talk and you touch and this was awful. This was nothing like, nothing like that.

SARAH FERGUSON: Some players even came into the room through the bathroom window.

CLARE: I had my eyes shut a lot of it and when I opened my eyes there was just a long line at the end of the bed.

SARAH FERGUSON: What was going through your mind when this was happening?

CLARE: I thought that I was, that I was nothing. I thought I was worthless and I thought I was nothing. And I think I was I was in shock. I didn't scream and they used a lot of like mental power over me and, and belittled me and made me feel really small like I was just a little old woman.

So she was in shock and frightened and unable to speak, like Coxyz said.

 

[Coxy]

So many people here seem to think it's black and white like that. If she wasn't held down or threatened then she wasn't forced and therefore nothing wrong and she's just a whinger.

There's so many grey areas in this story. The only things that seem to be certain is that:
a) she met Johns and Firman and agreed to go back to their room for sex
b) others were in the room and participated
c) she didn't say no or stop (the fact she's never said in the interviews that she told them to stop is, I agree, telling)

Doesn't mean she wasn't intimidated into complying, as schmix said, to get it over with quickly so she could get out.

 

[OXY-351]

See my earlier post. Matt Johns and Brett Firman apparently are the ones that "hooked up" with this girl. They're the ones who had a duty of care and a position of trust with this girl. The others are responsible for their own behaviour in that situation, yes, but Johns and Firman had a duty of care to ensure that she indeed was comfortable and consented to the escalation of the situation.

They're easily the most culpable.

The most culpable yes, but surely the others took advantage of the situation too (without her consent I'm assuming) and deserve to be punished. In for a penny, in for a pound. If they are going to punish one, then they should all be punished.

Honsetly though, how does anyone know that she wasn't comfortable with the situation at the time. Maybe she was, maybe she wasn't. It just seems harsh to me for a person to lose their employment 7 years after an event where it hasn't been proven that anyone actually did anything wrong.

Sure she's allegedly all fucked up now from it, but regret after the fact, doesn't mean she didn't consent to it at the time.

 

[Coxy]

Look all we've really got to go by is her interview, and seriously, some of the stuff she says there, about looking up, seeing a line of guys, always having hands on her...I'd like to know when she had an opportunity to invite or when she was asked "is it ok if I join in?"

From the sounds of it she was starting to go into shock and probably wouldn't recognise many of the guys if she saw them in a line up. It doesn't sound like she's a diehard Sharks fan or something, someone who would know the players names.

Johns and Firman are the ones she met, they're the ones she can identify.

Seriously, if anyone can really say they've done "nothing wrong" given how this woman now feels is clearly insensitive and, frankly, stupid.

 

[OXY-351]

So many people here seem to think it's black and white like that. If she wasn't held down or threatened then she wasn't forced and therefore nothing wrong and she's just a whinger.

There's so many grey areas in this story. The only things that seem to be certain is that:
a) she met Johns and Firman and agreed to go back to their room for sex
b) others were in the room and participated
c) she didn't say no or stop (the fact she's never said in the interviews that she told them to stop is, I agree, telling)

Doesn't mean she wasn't intimidated into complying, as schmix said, to get it over with quickly so she could get out.

Excellent post mate, and I agree with you on every point. I just can't understand why someone should be stood down when, you're right, it's not black and white.

When you're talking about screwing around with some guys livelyhood, I think you want to be more sure about the events that took place than only taking some chicks word for it who was obviously up for some group sex with NRL players in the first place.

If she just lay there and took it, never said no/stop etc nor displayed signs that she was uncomfortable, then I can't see what the problem is. The general public think it's degrading to women because the general public wouldn't want their privates turned in to a box of arnotts assorted creams. If that chick did, then so be it.

 

[Coxy]

Look I think you also need to acknowledge that consenting to a 3-some with 2 blokes is different to volunteering to be a live sex doll for 12.

Thing is, in Johns case he's a public figure, a public face of rugby league. He is also the guy that, whether 100% true or not, contributed to this woman having chronic, serious psychological trauma.

The game and channel 9 simply couldn't afford to have his smirky face on the TV 4 nights/days a week. It's an embarrassment.

But as I said, I don't see why he should lose his assistant coaching roles, albeit probably with some extra scrutiny of how he behaves in "social" occasions with the team.

 

[Coxy]

BTW, I hope this paragraph wasn't misinterpreted:

So many people here seem to think it's black and white like that. If she wasn't held down or threatened then she wasn't forced and therefore nothing wrong and she's just a whinger.

I'm saying the second sentence is utterly wrong. You don't have to be held down or threatened to have been forced to do what she did.

 

[Beachy]

+1, you make very valid points about how heavily distorted the reporting has been in the girl's favour. I don't think you should be allowed to appear on TV claiming anonymously to slander a person who was cleared of any wrong doing 7 years ago.

Not to mention threatening to shoot him too ...

 

[OXY-351]

Seriously, if anyone can really say they've done "nothing wrong" given how this woman now feels is clearly insensitive and, frankly, stupid.

Lets say for a minute, the chick was up for it at the time, but later regreted it. It's not the players fault that she can't deal with what happened.

If she wasn't keen (be that by saying no, displaying signs of discomfort etc) at the time, then yes, the players have done something wrong, and should be charged with rape.

Who knows what happened - it could be either scenario, but given people should be assumed innocent until proven guilty, and no-one has been found guilty of anything, then I think it's extremely harsh for Johns to be punished like this.

Has it got to the point now where all someone has to do is make an allegation against another for that person to be punished as thought they were guilty.

 

[OXY-351]

He would have been sacked it if had of happened last week or something so I don't see the problem in the sacking.

So should Hunt and Thaiday also be sacked from the Broncos?

 

[Coxy]

Seriously, if anyone can really say they've done "nothing wrong" given how this woman now feels is clearly insensitive and, frankly, stupid.

Lets say for a minute, the chick was up for it at the time, but later regreted it. It's not the players fault that she can't deal with what happened.

If she wasn't keen (be that by saying no, displaying signs of discomfort etc) at the time, then yes, the players have done something wrong, and should be charged with rape.

Who knows what happened - it could be either scenario, but given people should be assumed innocent until proven guilty, and no-one has been found guilty of anything, then I think it's extremely harsh for Johns to be punished like this.

Has it got to the point now where all someone has to do is make an allegation against another for that person to be punished as thought they were guilty.

Again you've missed mine and others posts where rape victims have frozen with fear and have been unable to verbally or physically show that they want out.

She suggested something similar in her interview - always hands on me, always someone doing something to me - as in, she felt she never had an opportunity to say no or stop, I've had enough.

This kind of group sex is very much all about the blokes getting off on their power of the situation, being able to do whatever they want to this woman.

Seriously, you don't suffer the level of psychological trauma she has (diagnosed, completely indisputable) by waking up the next morning or leaving the room going "hmm, that wasn't as good as I thought it'd be".

To me it's patently obvious that at some point DURING the event she's had that thought and then panicked thinking there's no way she can get out of it now, and then gone into shock. The way she describes it (shutting her eyes, opening them to see more guys there) almost sounds like she was blacking out.

The whole thing just reeks of inappropriateness and emotional and psychological abuse. Unfortunately, as Gymp and others have said unless she:

a) said no to start with and was then forced
b) consented and then expressed verbally and/or physically that she wanted it to stop

then there's no legal case to answer.

Her word against theirs. Difficulty proving it if she couldn't and didn't physically say no...ugh, I feel awful for this girl.

And as for her comment that she wishes she could shoot him...honestly, perfectly natural response for anyone who feels they've been violated and abused by someone.

 

[Coxy]

The Hunt/Thaiday/Boyd case is very interesting. The girl in that case did make a complaint. It'd be very interesting to know if she's suffered/suffering ongoing psychological trauma the way "Clare" is/has.

From what I've heard of that case that was more a blatant case of feeling regretful for doing it, rather than feeling violated.

 

[schmix]

Seriously, you don't suffer the level of psychological trauma she has (diagnosed, completely indisputable) by waking up the next morning or leaving the room going "hmm, that wasn't as good as I thought it'd be".

I wish people would pay more attention to this. You don't get post traumatic stress disorder, or attempt suicide, or want people dead because you thought "woops". If I did something I felt guilty about then I'd be trying to keep it quiet, or at the very least I wouldn't go and talk about it on national tv.

This event was traumatic for her. Trauma doesn't occur when you're fully consensual in the act.

 

[OXY-351]

The Hunt/Thaiday/Boyd case is very interesting. The girl in that case did make a complaint. It'd be very interesting to know if she's suffered/suffering ongoing psychological trauma the way "Clare" is/has.

From what I've heard of that case that was more a blatant case of feeling regretful for doing it, rather than feeling violated.

Should it really matter what the after efects are though. Perhaps the girl in the Bronco incident is mentally stronger than Clare and has been able to deal with it better.

Either way, very simlar situation. Girl is involved in group sex with NRL players. At some stage doesn't consent to it happening, or at least to all of them being there. Police investigate, but no charges are laid.

If people on here are happy for Johns to be stood down, I'm interested to see if they have the same thoughts reagrding the broncos players.

 

[schmix]

It's not really that similar. From what I remember (and we actually found out very little about this incident, so it's hard to judge too much) she went into the bathroom with three guys, and ended up with three guys. Very different to going in with two, and having man after man get a turn.

Obviously something went on in there to make her unhappy, and I would have preferred to see the Broncos receive more punishment for their role in it, but it's not really to the same extent as the Cronulla/NZ incident.

 

[OXY-351]

In both cases the girls made complaints of sexaul assault, and in both cases all those invloved where found to have no case to answer. Correct? Seems quite similar to me, just like the numerous other sexual assult claims reagrding NRL players. How many of them have been sacked?

But when it's the Broncos players, it's "just a bit of fun" and "very different" to the cronulla incident. Sure it's different in the specifics of the case, but in the end some chick still had things sexaully done to her that she didn't consent to nor was happy with.

So if the broncos chick came out tomorrow and said she suffered psychological damage from the incident, what then?

Just seems to me that everyone is happy to make Matthew Johns a scapegoat on this whole issue. Will the NRL/Manly sack Brett Stewart if he is found not guilty of sexual assault. I'm willing to put $100 that they won't.