Josh McGuire - Backrow

[Big Pete]

Re: Round 24 - Broncos vs Knights - Post Match Discussion

That's cool.

The problem is your initial post read as a critique of Josh when many on here believe he's been one of our best this season.

I agree with them, I believe McGuire is a star of the team and was desperately unlucky not to play Origin. I would be curious to see his role tinkered with as we saw against the Bulldogs in the Copley try but at the same time I'm appreciative of his input.

Meanwhile I'm not sold on either Wallace or Kennedy. Ideally, I'd like a few more players who can bend the line and build momentum but I'm not pleased with either at this point although Kennedy's performance was not without it's promise.

 

[Porthoz]

Re: Round 24 - Broncos vs Knights - Post Match Discussion

A Lock is closer to a Prop than a second rower imo, and I agree that is probably where McGuire will end up. I understand where Huge is coming from, but I disagree with the premise that McGuire isn't a prop. He is, and he has the runs and the stats on the board to prove it.
I don't think he should play in the fringes at all, he is well and truly a middle ruck player, and prop or lock are the only positions I would have him play, even if I don't disagree with BP's thoughts of sending a prop like McGuire down a fringe on an odd occasion.

Size isn't everything (right [MENTION=8311]Harry Sack[/MENTION]?), and no one proves this better than Matt Scott or our own Shane Webcke.
However, diversity is very handy, and having a big tall "gorilla", like Tamou, JWH, Kasiano, Bromwich or one of the Burgess brothers, gives a team an edge, due to their potential to attract many defenders, and still get a ball away for second phase play.

We actually have a guy to fill that role, and I really hope WB gets it out of him... the stage is yours Martin Kennedy!

 

[Huge]

Re: Round 24 - Broncos vs Knights - Post Match Discussion

That's cool.

The problem is your initial post read as a critique of Josh when many on here believe he's been one of our best this season.

I agree with them, I believe McGuire is a star of the team and was desperately unlucky not to play Origin. I would be curious to see his role tinkered with as we saw against the Bulldogs in the Copley try but at the same time I'm appreciative of his input.

Meanwhile I'm not sold on either Wallace or Kennedy. Ideally, I'd like a few more players who can bend the line and build momentum but I'm not pleased with either at this point although Kennedy's performance was not without it's promise.

At a stretch I suppose you could see it as a critique although I can't see how when it contains words like ' a huge motor' tough enough, agile etc etc. Saying he is too light isn't intended to be a criticism ,more a simple statement of fact just like the fact that he doesn't bend the line or sting in defence or attack..I still think he's a great contributor and even though not intended, I was not criticising him rather how he is used..

 

[Ari Gold]

Re: Round 24 - Broncos vs Knights - Post Match Discussion

Thanks for that info BP ! I never knew about Josh's history and mostly I thought he was light on his feet and resilient with a big motor as they say. I'm a bit old fashioned insomuch as I like the idea of two gorillas to start, certainly the first twenty minutes or so before bringing on the lesser lights. I notice nobody is running down your post although it could be read as being largely supportive of my supposedly crazy idea.

I completely fail to see how McGuire is like a second rower. I've never seen McGuire run a good line in my life. Not saying he can't, but given everything he has offered in first grade so far, I 100% fail to see how anyone could view him more as a second rower than a front rower. Which isn't necessarily to say that he shows all the desired attributes in an elite prop, but he's shown more prop like skills than he ever, ever has second row ability. So in no way am I supportive of your crazy idea he is more of a second rower than a prop.

 

[Big Pete]

Re: Round 24 - Broncos vs Knights - Post Match Discussion

A critique doesn't necessarily have to be purely negative to be a critique.

more a simple statement of fact just like the fact that he doesn't bend the line or sting in defence or attack..

I'd assume most on here would beg to differ.

I know I do.

 

[rnabokov]

Re: Round 24 - Broncos vs Knights - Post Match Discussion

Good tackle by Glenn forced him back as he passed. Threw the support runner and his pass off

Yep. Nothing beats a good, hard hit and good line speed, rain, hail or shine. Something this team really needs to work on for next season, rain hail or shine

 

[Mr Fourex]

Re: Round 24 - Broncos vs Knights - Post Match Discussion

A Lock is closer to a Prop than a second rower imo, and I agree that is probably where McGuire will end up. I understand where Huge is coming from, but I disagree with the premise that McGuire isn't a prop. He is, and he has the runs and the stats on the board to prove it.
I don't think he should play in the fringes at all, he is well and truly a middle ruck player, and prop or lock are the only positions I would have him play, even if I don't disagree with BP's thoughts of sending a prop like McGuire down a fringe on an odd occasion.

Size isn't everything (right @Harry Sack ?), and no one proves this better than Matt Scott or our own Shane Webcke.
However, diversity is very handy, and having a big tall "gorilla", like Tamou, JWH, Kasiano, Bromwich or one of the Burgess brothers, gives a team an edge, due to their potential to attract many defenders, and still get a ball away for second phase play.

We actually have a guy to fill that role, and I really hope WB gets it out of him... the stage is yours Martin Kennedy!

Is Kennedy a potential gorilla...?

I'm not so sure.

FTR....I get what Huge is saying about McGuire. I'm seeing something similar, however lock is probably what Huge was thinking when he said 2nd row. From a RL era gone by which I believe Huge (and myself for that mater) would have grown up with, you would have had at least one of the 2nd row playing more up the middle and the lock would play more on the edge. In today's game, 2nd rowers are almost all extensively edge runners and the lock forward takes on the middle role.

Memory lane stroll aside....I don't think McGuire's future is being a prop.

 

[Porthoz]

Re: Round 24 - Broncos vs Knights - Post Match Discussion

Is Kennedy a potential gorilla...?

I'm not so sure.

FTR....I get what Huge is saying about McGuire. I'm seeing something similar, however lock is probably what Huge was thinking when he said 2nd row. From a RL era gone by which I believe Huge (and myself for that mater) would have grown up with, you would have had at least one of the 2nd row playing more up the middle and the lock would play more on the edge. In today's game, 2nd rowers are almost all extensively edge runners and the lock forward takes on the middle role.

Memory lane stroll aside....I don't think McGuire's future is being a prop.

He certainly has the potential, the question is whether he will realise it.

 

[Huge]

Re: Round 24 - Broncos vs Knights - Post Match Discussion

I completely fail to see how McGuire is like a second rower. I've never seen McGuire run a good line in my life. Not saying he can't, but given everything he has offered in first grade so far, I 100% fail to see how anyone could view him more as a second rower than a front rower. Which isn't necessarily to say that he shows all the desired attributes in an elite prop, but he's shown more prop like skills than he ever, ever has second row ability. So in no way am I supportive of your crazy idea he is more of a second rower than a prop.

Oh the insanity of it all, suggesting a frontrower could play second row ! How crazy, next I'll be suggesting a prop can play lock ! Nutty, huh lol.... Crazy as I am I look around at the other successful clubs and don't see many 106 kilo props, they're mainly bigger men. We have a small pack this year, acknowledged by the media and some posters on here. I guess I'm old fashioned with a teams forwards doing the hard grunt work, making ground up the middle and tackling the others to try to get over the top of the opposition. Mostly you left the fancy playmaking to others so crazy as it is to you,Ari I'd have McGuire running hard in the second row and I wouldn't expect him to do much more than make ground, run straight and hard and tackle everything that comes his way. Anyhoo, that's just my opinion and I'm not crazy, just think a little differently to you. To each, his own.

 

[Ari Gold]

Re: Round 24 - Broncos vs Knights - Post Match Discussion

You say he's not big enough to be a prop, yet the role you envision for him as a second rower is to run straight and hard and tackle. Just like a prop would? And presumably you'd make room for such a role by shifting one of Thaiday, Gillet or Glenn, and likely at the expense of Oates too. You definitely think differently to me.

 

[Huge]

Re: Round 24 - Broncos vs Knights - Post Match Discussion

You say he's not big enough to be a prop, yet the role you envision for him as a second rower is to run straight and hard and tackle. Just like a prop would? And presumably you'd make room for such a role by shifting one of Thaiday, Gillet or Glenn, and likely at the expense of Oates too. You definitely think differently to me.

In reverse order, I never wanted Oates doing grunt work and have said so repeatedly . He would either be out where he scored a glut of tries last year or in the centres with Copley. Thaiday has been a log this year and although he has ability is over rated, in my humble opinion. We certainly would not miss his 'contributions'. Shifting troops around is hardly new and I'm sure I could use McGuire as I'd want to without losing Glenn or Gillett. I've never said McGuire is not a good first grader, it's just that I think he'd make even more ground, break more tackles and be more effective from a team perspective playing in the second row. With all due respect to others on here I would not take Parker away from lock where he is a champion. Yes, I like my props bigger but in my humble opinion McGuire is the perfect size for second row.

 

[broncos4life]

Re: Round 24 - Broncos vs Knights - Post Match Discussion

In reverse order, I never wanted Oates doing grunt work and have said so repeatedly . He would either be out where he scored a glut of tries last year or in the centres with Copley. Thaiday has been a log this year and although he has ability is over rated, in my humble opinion. We certainly would not miss his 'contributions'. Shifting troops around is hardly new and I'm sure I could use McGuire as I'd want to without losing Glenn or Gillett. I've never said McGuire is not a good first grader, it's just that I think he'd make even more ground, break more tackles and be more effective from a team perspective playing in the second row. With all due respect to others on here I would not take Parker away from lock where he is a champion. Yes, I like my props bigger but in my humble opinion McGuire is the perfect size for second row.

I still strongly disagree because basically what you are describing your ideal role for McGuire is lock. I agree that long term that probably is his best position, but that is Parker's position until he retires (once he is back there next year) and McGuire may we'll take
It then.

I will pose this question to you. If you are right and McGuire is meant to be an edge runner, why has no coach in first grade (and I bet my place on this forum that the incoming coach will be the same) never put him as an edge runner?

 

[Porthoz]

Re: Round 24 - Broncos vs Knights - Post Match Discussion

Oh the insanity of it all, suggesting a frontrower could play second row ! How crazy, next I'll be suggesting a prop can play lock ! Nutty, huh lol.... Crazy as I am I look around at the other successful clubs and don't see many 106 kilo props, they're mainly bigger men. We have a small pack this year, acknowledged by the media and some posters on here. I guess I'm old fashioned with a teams forwards doing the hard grunt work, making ground up the middle and tackling the others to try to get over the top of the opposition. Mostly you left the fancy playmaking to others so crazy as it is to you,Ari I'd have McGuire running hard in the second row and I wouldn't expect him to do much more than make ground, run straight and hard and tackle everything that comes his way. Anyhoo, that's just my opinion and I'm not crazy, just think a little differently to you. To each, his own.

Matt Scott... he's 106 Kgs and only the best prop in the game.

 

[broncos4life]

Re: Round 24 - Broncos vs Knights - Post Match Discussion

Matt Scott... he's 106 Kgs and only the best prop in the game.

He's not a prop. Should be running on the edges

 

[Morkel]

Re: Round 24 - Broncos vs Knights - Post Match Discussion

McGuire is a prop, no one's going to convince me otherwise. The 106kg is irrelevant, because he's not as tall as most traditional props, meaning at, say, 190+cm he's be 112+kg. In fact he's similar dimensions to Sam Moa, who is also that shorter, rounder, bowling-ball prop that hits the line low, hard and with aggression, and rips & tears through for a fast play the ball.

 

[rnabokov]

Re: Round 24 - Broncos vs Knights - Post Match Discussion

McGuire is a prop, no one's going to convince me otherwise. The 106kg is irrelevant, because he's not as tall as most traditional props, meaning at, say, 190+cm he's be 112+kg. In fact he's similar dimensions to Sam Moa, who is also that shorter, rounder, bowling-ball prop that hits the line low, hard and with aggression, and rips & tears through for a fast play the ball.

Sam Moa is 114 kg and Matt Scott is 106 kg - the issue isn't weight, or height. It is upper and lower body strength and the way you transfer that power into your running, and therefore obviously, the way you run.

Josh's stats for metres gained are as good as any prop except for the absolute elite but even then, metres gained aren't everything. His offloads and line break stats are relatively poor (6 offloads and 1 line break) compared to the top props like Scott (14 offloads) and say Bromwich (43 offloads).

My issue with him is that he rarely if ever looks to offload and tries to smash through the line instead of trying to offload and like I said, his line breaks compared to the best aren't good.

There is no way on the planet I would pick him to play lock until he learns to offload like Cozza (58 offloads) and say Sam Burgess (50 offloads).

In my view, the best props and locks are the ones who set up 2nd phase plays

 

[Morkel]

Re: Round 24 - Broncos vs Knights - Post Match Discussion

Sam Moa is 114 kg and Matt Scott is 106 kg - the issue isn't weight, or height. It is upper and lower body strength and the way you transfer that power into your running, and therefore obviously, the way you run.

Josh's stats for metres gained are as good as any prop except for the absolute elite but even then, metres gained aren't everything. His offloads and line break stats are relatively poor (6 offloads and 1 line break) compared to the top props like Scott (14 offloads) and say Bromwich (43 offloads).

My issue with him is that he rarely if ever looks to offload and tries to smash through the line instead of trying to offload and like I said, his line breaks compared to the best aren't good.

There is no way on the planet I would pick him to play lock until he learns to offload like Cozza (58 offloads) and say Sam Burgess (50 offloads).

In my view, the best props and locks are the ones who set up 2nd phase plays

On the Rooster's site, Moa is 105kg...?

IMO, While it is awesome to have a prop that can instigate second phase play, it is a rarity, and an expensive one at that. At least, if their duties as a prop are still being fulfilled and they can do it for decent minutes. Call me old fashioned, but a prop's primary purpose is to make metres in attack and prevent metres in defence. That sounds like McGuire to me.

 

[rnabokov]

Re: Round 24 - Broncos vs Knights - Post Match Discussion

On the Rooster's site, Moa is 105kg...?

IMO, While it is awesome to have a prop that can instigate second phase play, it is a rarity, and an expensive one at that. At least, if their duties as a prop are still being fulfilled and they can do it for decent minutes. Call me old fashioned, but a prop's primary purpose is to make metres in attack and prevent metres in defence. That sounds like McGuire to me.

If Moa is 105kg then I'll eat chicken for a month.

I agree with you about a prop's primary purpose.

Who would you have - Josh or Matt Scott, or Jesse Bromwich?