OFFICIAL ORIGIN: QLD WINS. HOORAY. NOW LET'S GET BACK TO THE FOOTY

Since we're coming into Origin season, we might like to think about how it's going to affect our playing roster and recovery time. Here is the schedule, and how it will impact us.

IMPACT	ROUND	DATE	OPPONENT
Missing players	17	Sunday, July 10	Dragons
	Origin 3	Wednesday, July 13
Backing up: 3 days	18	Saturday, July 16	Titans

We have 2 remaining games to be affected by representative matches:

Dragons in Round 17
Broncos missing
Kurt Capewell
Corey Oates
Selwyn Cobbo
Patty Carrigan
Tommy Flegler (replacement)

Dragons missing
Ben Hunt

Titans in Round 18
Broncos possibly resting
Corey Oates
Kurt Capewell
Selwyn Cobbo
Patty Carrigan

Titans possibly resting
Tino Fa'asuamaleaui

ORIGIN 3 SQUAD : QLD
Kurt Capewell
Selwyn Cobbo
Pat Carrigan
Corey Oates
Tommy Flegler (18th man)

NSW ORIGIN 3: NSW
No Broncos

 

[Skathen]

For Payne to be worth the figures he is asking he would need to be a ballplaying forward with a good offload, something that contributes to points on the board, with his existing run meters.

Sure he can run harder and longer then basically any other prop but at the end of the day that's all he is a prop, he isn't a superstar halfback or fullback that can break a game almost single handily.

As unfair as it may seem to the player there is a maximum value each position can provide and Prop isn't the highest.

Is he setting up points regularly? No.
Is he getting line breaks and getting the ball away to a back? No.
Is he leading the field in offloads, promoting second phase play? No.
Is he barging over for a try every week or two? No.
Is he pivotal in our turnaround this season? No.
Is he cutting players down and dominating the opposition? No.

What he is doing:
- Making great meters.
- Can play big minutes.
- Lot of post contact meters (but at the cost of a slow play the ball / set defence).
- Doing a lot of 1%ers like getting back in defense and busting his guts when others aren't.
- Has potential to improve further.

He's very valuable for a prop - he has a lot of good characteristics. But is he the best prop in the game that the media love to push out there? I would contend absolutely not, I would say that James Fisher-Harris and Josh Papalii would be my top picks in that category for a very special reason - presence, leadership and fear. Payne can play more minutes, more meters, but - these are better defenders - enforcers, great at getting teams on the front foot.

Neither of these blokes are getting a million per year.

Looking at clubs who have paid a forward big bucks - Titans and Cowboys - have they extracted the value from that extra money? In one case - definitely not - in the other - it's been pretty up and down.

 

[BooKhaki]

That's not his argument. He literally said the figure 700k. Not minimum wage. You know exactly what he is saying and he is 100% right. 700k for Payne might be a bit low bump that up to 800-850 but the base of his argument is spot on. Forwards don't score tries, or at least aren't expected to. They get there value off hit-ups, run metres, offloads, tackles, etc. That whilst so important and can warrant you 850k if you're up there, which is Paynes real market value. But the end of the day Pat is on 500k. Are you telling me that 50 run metres a week difference between Payne and Pat is enough for us to give a shit about a player leaving if they are not conducive to our scoreboard. I'm not worried about it. People with the big money always have and always will be the blokes who create points and are conducive to the scoreboard. Kurt Capewell for mine is our most important player defensively (him and TMM), he is on 500k as well, doesn't mean I don't value, appreciate or respect what he does. Just isn't worth the money. Even he has a greater influence on both ends of the +/- column than Payne. Reality is metres is only worth so much and spine players are where money needs to be for anyone to win a comp. So whilst metres is a significant contribution, 50 extra metres means jack shit if you can't score points. Payne doesn't contribute to that column, thus, Payne doesn't get our money. Payne has been making metres for years and we haven't scored points. Get 1, 1! quality spine player in and we have won the same amount of games this year halfway through as the last 2.

So really I think either you need to fix your comprehension skills or don't comment on how much players are worth in the future. Cause it seems your concept of how a salary cap should be managed is how we got ourselves into the very large mess that was the Broncos 6 weeks ago.

I never commented on Payne Vs Pat or their value. I don't recall mentioning Pat a single time, I said using tries scored/assisted as a way to value props is stupid.

I appreciate the off the mark rant....What were you saying about comprehension skills?

 

[BooKhaki]

Is he setting up points regularly? No.
Is he getting line breaks and getting the ball away to a back? No.
Is he leading the field in offloads, promoting second phase play? No.
Is he barging over for a try every week or two? No.
Is he pivotal in our turnaround this season? No.
Is he cutting players down and dominating the opposition? No.

What he is doing:
- Making great meters.
- Can play big minutes.
- Lot of post contact meters (but at the cost of a slow play the ball / set defence).
- Doing a lot of 1%ers like getting back in defense and busting his guts when others aren't.
- Has potential to improve further.

He's very valuable for a prop - he has a lot of good characteristics. But is he the best prop in the game that the media love to push out there? I would contend absolutely not, I would say that James Fisher-Harris and Josh Papalii would be my top picks in that category for a very special reason - presence, leadership and fear. Payne can play more minutes, more meters, but - these are better defenders - enforcers, great at getting teams on the front foot.

Neither of these blokes are getting a million per year.

Looking at clubs who have paid a forward big bucks - Titans and Cowboys - have they extracted the value from that extra money? In one case - definitely not - in the other - it's been pretty up and down.

Bolded is meh. Can we also include how good the Matt Nable walking talk is for each player as a way to determine how good they are? I'll take Payne over Papalii for the numbers he pumps out. Papalii can keep his presence, leadership and fear. And I love big papa, he's my first forward picked in origin. Haas is still a better NRL prop.

It's funny all this Haas playing ability bagging started in the last week or so. I wonder what caused this.

 

[Big Pete]

It's funny all this Haas playing ability bagging started in the last week or so. I wonder what caused this.

Fans have been critical of Haas a lot longer than that. It started in his rookie years with his defence, especially off the line. Even before news broke about him seeking an immediate release fans were surprised at how much better the Broncos looked without him against Souths.

 

[Culhwch]

It's funny all this Haas playing ability bagging started in the last week or so. I wonder what caused this.

No, it had definitely been discussed well before all of the contract nonsense, that just intensified it.

 

[BooKhaki]

Fans have been critical of Haas a lot longer than that. It started in his rookie years with his defence, especially off the line. Even before news broke about him seeking an immediate release fans were surprised at how much better the Broncos looked without him against Souths.

I started a thread on this site when I first joined asking if he was over-rated as everyone was talking him up like a god, focusing on his weak defence especially on our goal line, and I was universally disagreed with.

 

[Big Pete]

I started a thread on this site when I first joined asking if he was over-rated as everyone was talking him up like a god, focusing on his weak defence especially on our goal line, and I was universally disagreed with.

Yeah, I doubt it was universal considering I know there are regulars on here who bagged him.

 

[Galah]

Fans have been critical of Haas a lot longer than that. It started in his rookie years with his defence, especially off the line. Even before news broke about him seeking an immediate release fans were surprised at how much better the Broncos looked without him against Souths.

I specifically remember @Wolfie and I having a good convo about his first contact for a big guy was “softish” considering his physical statue.

 

[Skathen]

It's funny all this Haas playing ability bagging started in the last week or so. I wonder what caused this.

Selective memory perhaps?

People have been saying there are areas of Payne's game that's letting us down, particularly around the slow play the ball and lack of offloads, literally all freaking year.

 

[Fitzy]

I never commented on Payne Vs Pat or their value. I don't recall mentioning Pat a single time, I said using tries scored/assisted as a way to value props is stupid.

I appreciate the off the mark rant....What were you saying about comprehension skills?

You never once said Payne either champion, your argument and I quote is “Using tries scored/assisted as a way to value props is stupid.” Pat is a prop/middle forward is he not. That would mean Pat is just as applicable to the argument as an example to prove where you are being a knob head and a literalist. Or do I need your permission in the future? @McHunt never said someone who doesn’t score/create points is invaluable he said someone who doesn’t can’t command top dollar. If you can’t understand that you’ve either got tunnel vision for an argument or you are just in no place to comment on such a matter with such little knowledge to warrant a valid opinion. Take your choice. Therefore, Pat was obviously used as an example for why an extra 50 metres from Haas doesn’t warrant an extra 500-700k.

I will ask for your permission to use his name next time don’t you worry.

 

[BooKhaki]

You never once said Payne either champion, your argument and I quote is “Using tries scored/assisted as a way to value props is stupid.” Pat is a prop/middle forward is he not. That would mean Pat is just as applicable to the argument as an example to prove where you are being a knob head and a literalist. Or do I need your permission in the future? @McHunt never said someone who doesn’t score/create points is invaluable he said someone who doesn’t can’t command top dollar. If you can’t understand that you’ve either got tunnel vision for an argument or you are just in no place to comment on such a matter with such little knowledge to warrant a valid opinion. Take your choice. Therefore, Pat was obviously used as an example for why an extra 50 metres from Haas doesn’t warrant an extra 500-700k.

I will ask for your permission to use his name next time don’t you worry.

Using tries and assists for all props is stupid, I don't need to mention names. I feel that way for literally every single prop. If that's being a knobhead and literalist, sure thing princess.

If you use tries score when discussing a prop, it's the same as mentioning total tackles made for a fullback. It's almost irrelevant.

 

[Fitzy]

Using tries and assists for all props is stupid, I don't need to mention names. I feel that way for literally every single prop. If that's being a knobhead and literalist, sure thing princess.

If you use tries score when discussing a prop, it's the same as mentioning total tackles made for a fullback. It's almost irrelevant.

You are genuinely being one of the most dense blokes I have ever witnessed at this current minute. Nobody in there right mind expects a prop to have try assists or tries. I can 100% agree with you there. But that’s because that’s not there job description. Thus they don’t contribute to the scoreboard and thus they don’t get top tier money. That’s the argument here. No if, buts or maybes. This argument has got nothing to do with why prop’s aren’t scoring or creating tries. Never has and never will. I will apologise to you where you can show me where I explicitly said I want props to be able to create and score points. The core of the argument lies in salary cap management but you haven’t been able to comprehend or come to terms with this. And any player/prop whatever that can’t contribute to the scoreboard doesn’t deserve upper echelon player money. It’s as simple as that no princesses or repeating your flawed argument is going to make any difference. What you are arguing isn’t wrong it’s just invalid because at no stage has anyone ever said they expected Payne to create points. All they are saying is that you can’t command top dollar if you don’t therefore not a single prop in the world can command top dollar. This isn’t a strictly Payne thing. Props don’t and won’t ever command top dollar.

 

[BooKhaki]

Nobody in there right mind expects a prop to have try assists or tries.

McHunt does.

 

[Skathen]

You are genuinely being one of the most dense blokes I have ever witnessed at this current minute. Nobody in there right mind expects a prop to have try assists or tries. I can 100% agree with you there. But that’s because that’s not there job description. Thus they don’t contribute to the scoreboard and thus they don’t get top tier money. That’s the argument here. No if, buts or maybes. This argument has got nothing to do with why prop’s aren’t scoring or creating tries. Never has and never will. I will apologise to you where you can show me where I explicitly said I want props to be able to create and score points. The core of the argument lies in salary cap management but you haven’t been able to comprehend or come to terms with this. And any player/prop whatever that can’t contribute to the scoreboard doesn’t deserve upper echelon player money. It’s as simple as that no princesses or repeating your flawed argument is going to make any difference. What you are arguing isn’t wrong it’s just invalid because at no stage has anyone ever said they expected Payne to create points. All they are saying is that you can’t command top dollar if you don’t therefore not a single prop in the world can command top dollar. This isn’t a strictly Payne thing. Props don’t and won’t ever command top dollar.

Agreed, this is the core point of the problem that some are not capturing.

2 weeks ago - people were happy with Payne's contribution, if anything, he's very well paid for what he does. 750K and more in the coming seasons for a prop that consistently achieves good meters and plays big minutes is a fair and equitable transaction.

Payne flips the table on that demanding a mil a year or the club can go get fucked.

So, people start analysing, what WOULD a $1mil prop, in a top 8 side look like? Nothing like that exists or has ever existed, so what would it take, to move the needle THAT far?

The value proposition needs to make sense, hence the wave of comparisons to what he does NOT bring to the table, therefore trying to find where the value is here to make that additional player's wage consumption worth it to the team and the club.

A prop, doing prop things, is not going to produce value for money at a mil a year. So what can this player do, beyond prop things, to make up for that value? THAT is the point of contention.

The two closest comparison players are JT13 and Fifi. Both are barnstorming runners who score points or set them up. Both are good at offloading, breaking tackles, getting line breaks and offloading to backs. One could also call into question if either of these were smart decisions for clubs who've had to work around their hefty salaries, probably to the detriment of the club. Fifi's is certainly a poison pill for GC - they are tanking hard now. Cowboys have had a mixed basket from JT13.

 

[john1420]

This place is fucked in the head? Forwards have never ever been measured on their try scoring capabilities.

Some of the delusional shit on here drives me crazy. Throw in a touch of toxicity and honestly I'm thinking of not bothering about coming on here

Bit of an over reaction there mate, it's not 'this place' it's 1 maybe 2 people - big difference :)

 

[McHunt]

McHunt does.

I don't expect props to score tries and make assists, but I would value one higher if it were a regular part of his game. Given we are talking about Payne being one of the highest paid players - not just props - and of all time, yes I would expect him to have more to his game than barging and tackling. I've probably reiterated this about 100 times. It's not exactly controversial. Most people are saying that.

It's why I consider Patty and Flegs to be worth as much as Payne, and honestly, more than him. Their defence is just as good, but their attacking games are better, and becoming increasingly so every game. Payne's error rate is lower than these two, but he doesn't take the risks. Sometimes you need to take risks to get the rewards. When Carrigan and Flegs tuck the ball under one arm, you don't know how the play will end. When Payne tucks it under, you'll know it will end 10-15 yards up the field with 5 blokes hanging off him then a play the ball. That'll be 99 times out of a 100. Payne is a guaranteed increment in field position but little else.

I know a lot of observers get off on these incremental field position advances and then a kick, but it's not why I watch the game.

 

[McHunt]

So our Origin players: who will back up?

FORWARDS
Payne Haas
Pat Carrigan
Kurt Capewell

BACKS
Kotoni Staggs
Selwyn Cobbo

RESERVE
Tom Flegler

In the past, forwards often back up while backs sit it out. Not a rule, though.

 

[McHunt]

This place is fucked in the head? Forwards have never ever been measured on their try scoring capabilities.

Why was David Fifita paid so much and what makes Jeremiah Nanai so highly regarded?