[Round 20, 2021] Broncos vs Cowboys

[vertigo]

All the ex-broncos to carve up in this one.

Why? because **** you Broncos, that's why.

 

[Unbreakable]

It was poorly worded by Sproj but it's pretty silly to take him to task over it and then bring up two players who hadn't played much footy since they were 17 before they were poached.

You'll find that Cobbo would have already signed with the club before he was blooded and that was just an added incentive, the same could be said of TC Robati. Both are further along in their careers than Mam and one would argue that in fact it wasn't a good decision to blood Selwyn given how it ended up for him. I think he would be a lot more useful plying his trade in the Queensland Cup than shaking up that shoulder to the head from Latrell.

How you can say Cobbo was further along in his career than Mam when he debuted? They're in the same age group, have played for the same junior rep teams together, both debuted in Queensland Cup this season and both have single digit Queensland Cup games to their names (as does Robati).

I have no issue with you, or anyone else saying that Mam shouldn't be considered for a debut this season, but some of the reasons being thrown about in this thread are just egregious. Obviously there's technical limitations to his possible debut with the contract & bubble situation, but even putting those to one side, the best we've come up with is "He shouldn't be considered because it's not a natural career trajectory" (Numerous examples of his exact trajectory at the club this season) and "He shouldn't be considered because he might play good and other teams will offer him a contract" (Numerous examples of players being poached from this club within the last 2 years, well before they're debuting at an NRL, or even Queensland Cup level - As well as numerous examples of players who've debuted, played well, and had their contract extended at the club)

Like.. what.

 

[Sproj]

How you can say Cobbo was further along in his career than Mam when he debuted? They're in the same age group, have played for the same junior rep teams together, both debuted in Queensland Cup this season and both have single digit Queensland Cup games to their names (as does Robati).

I have no issue with you, or anyone else saying that Mam shouldn't be considered for a debut this season, but some of the reasons being thrown about in this thread are just egregious. Obviously there's technical limitations to his possible debut with the contract & bubble situation, but even putting those to one side, the best we've come up with is "He shouldn't be considered because it's not a natural career trajectory" (Numerous examples of his exact trajectory at the club this season) and "He shouldn't be considered because he might play good and other teams will offer him a contract" (Numerous examples of players being poached from this club within the last 2 years, well before they're debuting at an NRL, or even Queensland Cup level - As well as numerous examples of players who've debuted, played well, and had their contract extended at the club)

Like.. what.

Sure, if you totally ignore half the points, this is what it boils down to. However, that isn't all there is to it is it.

I'll simplify it for you in terms of the genuine reasons for not giving him a game in dot point form:

- Mam is a really good player who is developing nicely in a good team, so leave him there to gain confidence and get experience
- Mam is not an organising half, we do not have one in the current first grade side, he would be on a hiding to nothing by coming in
- Cobbo did debut this year but on the wing, not in a key spine position at fullback
- Mam might well handle first grade but he isn't coming into a mature, battle-hardened side like Walsh and Walker did
- He is the future, why risk burning him now when if you wait until next season, he comes in with one of the best organising halves in the business instead of Croft/Gamble who both are severely limited?

You may not agree with these points, that's your choice but don't misrepresent the legitimate reasons some of us do not agree with you. You've done this a bit lately when people don't agree with you, it is poor form mate.

 

[Johnny92]

Sure, if you totally ignore half the points, this is what it boils down to. However, that isn't all there is to it is it.

I'll simplify it for you in terms of the genuine reasons for not giving him a game in dot point form:

- Mam is a really good player who is developing nicely in a good team, so leave him there to gain confidence and get experience
- Mam is not an organising half, we do not have one in the current first grade side, he would be on a hiding to nothing by coming in
- Cobbo did debut this year but on the wing, not in a key spine position at fullback
- Mam might well handle first grade but he isn't coming into a mature, battle-hardened side like Walsh and Walker did
- He is the future, why risk burning him now when if you wait until next season, he comes in with one of the best organising halves in the business instead of Croft/Gamble who both are severely limited?

You may not agree with these points, that's your choice but don't misrepresent the legitimate reasons some of us do not agree with you. You've done this a bit lately when people don't agree with you, it is poor form mate.

When TPJ steam rolled walker all game Radley stood up and gave it to tevita and has teddy to take the reins if he's off his game
When May was giving it to Walsh against Penrith AFB was straight in there also has RTS to jump in if things get tough
Who's going to come in and be the body guard for Ezra? Who In the spine is going to take the pressure off him?
I'd love to play him but its definitely not the right time

 

[Unbreakable]

Sure, if you totally ignore half the points, this is what it boils down to. However, that isn't all there is to it is it.

I'll simplify it for you in terms of the genuine reasons for not giving him a game in dot point form:

- Mam is a really good player who is developing nicely in a good team, so leave him there to gain confidence and get experience
- Mam is not an organising half, we do not have one in the current first grade side, he would be on a hiding to nothing by coming in
- Cobbo did debut this year but on the wing, not in a key spine position at fullback
- Mam might well handle first grade but he isn't coming into a mature, battle-hardened side like Walsh and Walker did
- He is the future, why risk burning him now when if you wait until next season, he comes in with one of the best organising halves in the business instead of Croft/Gamble who both are severely limited?

You may not agree with these points, that's your choice but don't misrepresent the legitimate reasons some of us do not agree with you. You've done this a bit lately when people don't agree with you, it is poor form mate.

- Mam is a really good player who is developing nicely in a good team, so leave him there to gain confidence and get experience

Is he a really good player? I'm not sure about that. He's performing quite well given his limited experience, but it remains to be seen if he's actually a quality NRL player or not (Hence the reason I'd like to see how he goes against actual defensive systems).

He could also gain confidence and get experience in the NRL.

- Mam is not an organising half, we do not have one in the current first grade side, he would be on a hiding to nothing by coming in

Agreed. We'd be replacing a running half with no skill (Croft) with a running half with an undetermined amount of skill (Mam).

- Cobbo did debut this year but on the wing, not in a key spine position at fullback

Yes, that is true. There's a difference, no doubt. I assume the message from the coaching staff would be the same for all debuting players, regardless of where they're named - run hard, tackle hard, play what's in front of you.

- Mam might well handle first grade but he isn't coming into a mature, battle-hardened side like Walsh and Walker did

Walsh was thrust in to a Warriors side in complete turmoil, struggling side, players coming, players going, captain leaving, injuries, suspensions, playing away from home. I wouldn't say they were the ideal circumstances to come in to in your first NRL season, nor would I call the Warriors a battle-hardened side, plenty of inexperience and youth across the park.

Walker's situation was certainly better, but he was still rushed in to a Roosters side who had just lost arguably their 3 most important players (Keary, Cordner, Friend).

Point being, it's rare for a debut to happen in perfect circumstances.

- He is the future, why risk burning him now when if you wait until next season, he comes in with one of the best organising halves in the business instead of Croft/Gamble who both are severely limited?

Is he the future?.. That's a very bold statement. I think he's got reasonable potential, but certainly aren't penciling him in as an NRL mainstay just yet.

You may not agree with these points, that's your choice but don't misrepresent the legitimate reasons some of us do not agree with you. You've done this a bit lately when people don't agree with you, it is poor form mate.

I never intentionally misinterpreted anything, I quoted exact comments and responded to them. Once again, I have no issue with people disagreeing with me, that's life. I would just prefer it if people put in a bit of effort when doing so. This post is a good example of a healthy way to disagree with someone, provide reasons, explanations, examples, etc. Far more engaging than the dribble that lead us to this point.

 

[Big Pete]

How you can say Cobbo was further along in his career than Mam when he debuted? They're in the same age group, have played for the same junior rep teams together, both debuted in Queensland Cup this season and both have single digit Queensland Cup games to their names (as does Robati).

Cobbo is a year older and was further along in his development having already played a season in U/18s back in 2019. Meanwhile Ezra's first season of U/18s was this year and he was rushed into QCup due to a lack of options.

I'm not saying Cobbo is light years ahead but he's further along in his development.

I'd also argue it was a mistake to play Cobbo in retrospect given how it's ended up. I'd much rather him at Wynnum Manly learning his craft than sitting on the sidelines shrugging off that big hit from Latrell.

I have no issue with you, or anyone else saying that Mam shouldn't be considered for a debut this season, but some of the reasons being thrown about in this thread are just egregious. Obviously there's technical limitations to his possible debut with the contract & bubble situation, but even putting those to one side, the best we've come up with is "He shouldn't be considered because it's not a natural career trajectory" (Numerous examples of his exact trajectory at the club this season) and "He shouldn't be considered because he might play good and other teams will offer him a contract" (Numerous examples of players being poached from this club within the last 2 years, well before they're debuting at an NRL, or even Queensland Cup level - As well as numerous examples of players who've debuted, played well, and had their contract extended at the club)

Missing a key one.

'Covid restrictions'.

 

[Unbreakable]

Cobbo is a year older and was further along in his development having already played a season in U/18s back in 2019. Meanwhile Ezra's first season of U/18s was this year and he was rushed into QCup due to a lack of options.

I'm not saying Cobbo is light years ahead but he's further along in his development.

I'd also argue it was a mistake to play Cobbo in retrospect given how it's ended up. I'd much rather him at Wynnum Manly learning his craft than sitting on the sidelines shrugging off that big hit from Latrell.

Is he a year older? I couldn't find a D.O.B for Mam. I know he's been 18 for a while.

Look, I know it's a very fine line when it comes to young players. There's a million examples of young players who've come in and just been smashed. Walsh & Walker would have more bumps and bruises this season than they'd know what to do with. Savage got destroyed and needs a shoulder re-co. Cobbo got whacked a few times. It's a tough business. In an ideal world you'd probably want every single one of your young players to have 1-2 years in Queensland Cup followed by a slow integration in to first grade off the bench with rests in between, in a perfect situation where the club is winning and you've got experienced first graders all around them. Unfortunately that's just really hard to come by, especially at the modern day Broncos. Anyone who comes in for their debut at the moment is in for a rough trot. I don't particularly think it'll be significantly different next season either.

Missing a key one.

'Covid restrictions'.

Bruh. I literally mentioned the bubble in the post you quoted, stop taking the piss.

 

[Sproj]

Is he a really good player? I'm not sure about that. He's performing quite well given his limited experience, but it remains to be seen if he's actually a quality NRL player or not (Hence the reason I'd like to see how he goes against actual defensive systems).

He could also gain confidence and get experience in the NRL.



Agreed. We'd be replacing a running half with no skill (Croft) with a running half with an undetermined amount of skill (Mam).



Yes, that is true. There's a difference, no doubt. I assume the message from the coaching staff would be the same for all debuting players, regardless of where they're named - run hard, tackle hard, play what's in front of you.



Walsh was thrust in to a Warriors side in complete turmoil, struggling side, players coming, players going, captain leaving, injuries, suspensions, playing away from home. I wouldn't say they were the ideal circumstances to come in to in your first NRL season, nor would I call the Warriors a battle-hardened side, plenty of inexperience and youth across the park.

Walker's situation was certainly better, but he was still rushed in to a Roosters side who had just lost arguably their 3 most important players (Keary, Cordner, Friend).

Point being, it's rare for a debut to happen in perfect circumstances.



Is he the future?.. That's a very bold statement. I think he's got reasonable potential, but certainly aren't penciling him in as an NRL mainstay just yet.



I never intentionally misinterpreted anything, I quoted exact comments and responded to them. Once again, I have no issue with people disagreeing with me, that's life. I would just prefer it if people put in a bit of effort when doing so. This post is a good example of a healthy way to disagree with someone, provide reasons, explanations, examples, etc. Far more engaging than the dribble that lead us to this point.

I think you'll find these arguments were mostly already there mate (not worded like this and not all of them this is true) but it did certainly boil down to more than just the two reasons of hide him and not normal career path that you somehow got out of it as your key take aways.

In any event, thank you for your well thought out response. I don't really agree with much of what you've said but I appreciate the respectful way you've gone about it.

 

[NSW stables]

We all talk on these forums about how melbourne are so much better at developing players into nrl standard players. They do this by having their players develop their skills and confidence in ISC before throwing them into first grade. Yes there are a few examples where this may not be the standard, but these are outliers.

Grant, papenhuyzen, hynes, cronk etc. would not be half the players they are without the opportunity to develop and practice their skills in ISC.

For the past several years (particularly our recent shit years) we have been all about throwing in the brand new fantastic teenage senesation into the squad. Look where that has got us (i.e. dearden, nui, coates). All of these players not reaching their potential because they were pushed too early. Again there are outliers (hass, fifita) but they are the exception.

 

[Big Pete]

Is he a year older? I couldn't find a D.O.B for Mam. I know he's been 18 for a while.

Look, I know it's a very fine line when it comes to young players. There's a million examples of young players who've come in and just been smashed. Walsh & Walker would have more bumps and bruises this season than they'd know what to do with. Savage got destroyed and needs a shoulder re-co. Cobbo got whacked a few times. It's a tough business. In an ideal world you'd probably want every single one of your young players to have 1-2 years in Queensland Cup followed by a slow integration in to first grade off the bench with rests in between, in a perfect situation where the club is winning and you've got experienced first graders all around them. Unfortunately that's just really hard to come by, especially at the modern day Broncos. Anyone who comes in for their debut at the moment is in for a rough trot. I don't particularly think it'll be significantly different next season either.



Bruh. I literally mentioned the bubble in the post you quoted, stop taking the piss.

You wanted to put it to the side when it's the key reason.

As I said, Mam played his first season of U/18s this year.

 

[Unbreakable]

We all talk on these forums about how melbourne are so much better at developing players into nrl standard players. They do this by having their players develop their skills and confidence in ISC before throwing them into first grade. Yes there are a few examples where this may not be the standard, but these are outliers.

Grant, papenhuyzen, hynes, cronk etc. would not be half the players they are without the opportunity to develop and practice their skills in ISC.

For the past several years (particularly our recent shit years) we have been all about throwing in the brand new fantastic teenage senesation into the squad. Look where that has got us (i.e. dearden, nui, coates). All of these players not reaching their potential because they were pushed too early. Again there are outliers (hass, fifita) but they are the exception.

I think the Storm are the outlier. There's nobody else in the NRL who can develop and mould players like they can. Obviously the way they run things should be the goal for every administration in the league, unfortunately it's nearly impossible to attain.

The amount of things you need to have in place from an administrative, coaching, playing group, recruitment & retention point of view before you can even THINK about leaving highly talented juniors to ply their craft over multiple seasons in QCUP.. is scary to think about. It's legitimately a 5-10 year process, and there are no clubs out there that are willing to commit to that lengthy of a process.

It's the reason why the Storm are able to lose 3-4 rep players every year and have it barely even affect their performance. I fully expect them to not even take a backwards step after Bellamy leaves, they will have been moulding and teaching guys behind the scenes for years in preparation.

 

[Alec]

After what happened with Dearden, I'd rather not bring in halves until they are at least 20. Well, maybe just halfbacks, they really need more development than any other position. If its a guy who just runs the ball, then whatever.

 

[Unbreakable]

After what happened with Dearden, I'd rather not bring in halves until they are at least 20. Well, maybe just halfbacks, they really need more development than any other position. If its a guy who just runs the ball, then whatever.

Sam Walker is certainly going alright. I wonder if he'd be going anywhere near as good if he played at this rabble though. I think that's more the issue, the fact that we're just a complete mess of a club. I'm just hoping like hell that Donaghy & Ikin are the ones who can turn this ship around.

 

[pagey]

1. Niu
2. Farnworth
3. Staggs
4. Isaako
5. Oates
6. Gamble
7. Kelly
8. Haas
9. Turpin
10. Kennedy
11. Glenn
12. Riki
13. Hetherington

14. Paix
15. Palasia
16. Robati
17. Bullemor

Isaako showed when he was at fullback that he can at least catch and pass when on the left side, this is something Herbie is showing he isn't good at. His biggest strength is his hard running and work ethic, which is better suited to a wing.

Definitely don't hate it

 

[BooKhaki]

Definitely don't hate it

I'd make further changes, but he won't be dropping Glenn. Kevvie praising every forward in the presser apart from Bullemor concerns me, he could get dropped.

 

[Shane Tronc]

This point is moot because of the restrictions anyway, but confidence is so important to us as a team going forward. We have so many players in our team who are playing on ZERO confidence currently, obviously Croft is a prime example of that (not saying that’s his only problem). I would prioritise keeping players in cup if possible to keep building their confidence for next year. You seriously cannot emphasise the importance of confidence to our team. I would much prefer players like Ezra continue killing it in cup rather than having their confidence destroyed in NRL.

Restrictions make it really difficult for players like Cobbo, Bullemor etc. Ideally them being out of the NRL team would give some positives because they’d be building confidence in cup, but obviously they can’t do that at the moment.

I do wonder if Bullemor’s NRL play time has been limited so much this season for confidence reasons. Maybe it’s better if he gets 20 minutes here and there and kills it as opposed to having fluctuating performance at longer minutes? I think it’s really important to scaffold NRL for younger players, Bennett is the exemplar for this as a coach. What probably makes it look unfair for Bullemor is that in previous years we’ve just thrown blokes like Flegler, Carrigan in. So we wonder why Bullemor doesn’t get the same since he’s performing so well. I hope his role expands next year.

 

[Shane Tronc]

I'd make further changes, but he won't be dropping Glenn. Kevvie praising every forward in the presser apart from Bullemor concerns me, he could get dropped.

It could be that he’s trying to keep pressure off him. Maybe I’m just hopeful that Bullemor isn’t being horribly mismanaged.

 

[BooKhaki]

It could be that he’s trying to keep pressure off him. Maybe I’m just hopeful that Bullemor isn’t being horribly mismanaged.

What pressure? Bull is never talked about in the media, he is a bench forward for the wooden spooners, and a team that has several players the media love talking about. Or does he keep getting dropped to keep pressure off him?

Unfortunately, I think your hope is misplaced.