POST GAME Round 3 - Broncos vs Dragons

[Big Pete]

I dont agree mate. He must have thought he could force his way over the line. On a technical level, i don't think he did anything wrong. He got down low and tried to force his way over the line, and at a guess he probably thought he had the momentum to carry himself over the line so i'd say fundamentally he didn't get it wrong in terms of what i presume he was aiming at doing. I cant speak for Glenn, because i dont know what his thinking at the time was so i'm just guessing, but my take on it is he probably didnt judge the distance to the line very well.

Maybe i should go and look at it again though, I could be wrong!

The issue is awareness. When you've got the defence back-peddling in the fashion Glenn did, you don't keep the ball tucked under your arms, you promote it to give yourself every opportunity of scoring.

I don't know if I would call it a turning point since the Broncos were still conceding line-breaks after Oatesy's try, but I'd like to think if he had have scored one from dummy half it would have given the boys more confidence than Ravalawa handing one to Brisbane. Regardless, I've harped on it more than I intended to.

 

[Alec]

Glenn looked fire up last night, like he had a point to prove after the media stuff about him. Relaxed version of Glenn would probably pass more.

 

[Huge]

I understand giving players the benefit of the doubt when they try something and it doesn't come off because of the difficulty of the play. However, this wasn't too much to ask and Glenn bottled it.

It stood out to me since Ben Hunt's one of the worst defenders in the NRL and I would have thought the Broncos would have fought fire with fire. I thought the Broncos would really target that left edge and they rarely went that way. This was one of the few instances they did and they nearly scored a soft try off the back of it.



Isaako still had plenty of time and space to get the kick in. Yes, Host and Lafai formed a chase, but they still couldn't get to Jamayne in time, Isaako was just off target.

The Dragons were only in position once the entire set and it just so happened to be the last play. Brisbane were in the exact same position as the Dragons from the second tackle, so they would have to burn through three more tackles before taking the shot. The longer the teams leaves it, the more the pressure builds up, especially when the defence doesn't have to constantly retreat 10m. Which is to say, the Dragons-Broncos comparison isn't 1:1.



By that logic, Brisbane could have tried anything that set and it would have been the right idea.

Sure, it couldn't be any worse but the field goal is the high percentage play.



Higher percentage of ricochets, higher percentage of conceding a penalty for an off-side chase, less likely to score points, more likely to concede a 7 tackle set.

It's easier to say in hindsight 'eh why not' but if it had have happened live, it would be scrutinised and rightfully so.



By the time the player playing the ball gets to his feet, dusts himself off, has a stretch, has a scratch and gives a dopey look to the referee, the defence will be on their marks. As soon as the ball is down on the ground, they're off and the dummy half has to ensure he gets the pass off as quickly as possible without having five relatively fresh players in his face.

It just makes it harder than it needs to for the kicker.

Rubbish. Utter rubbish!
5 you say?
If they're on the goal line and not cribbing a few metres and the kickers on the 20 it won't matter if they are all faster than Usain Bolt, they simply can't cover the ground. The kicker can stand a little further back if he wishes, after all he gets time to get set thus absolutely ensuring they don't have the time. You keep missing the advantages because you 'have to be right'.

You gloss over the fact that the defence line is easier for the ref to judge and any offside is clearly illuminated. If all the defence line is in a straight line and still only 7 or 8 metres back they never get pinged as a ref won't blow a penalty to decide a game. These are advantages over the fast play the ball at frenetic pace for the other participants.

 

[Big Pete]

Rubbish. Utter rubbish!
5 you say?
If they're on the goal line and not cribbing a few metres and the kickers on the 20 it won't matter if they are all faster than Usain Bolt, they simply can't cover the ground. The kicker can stand a little further back if he wishes, after all he gets time to get set thus absolutely ensuring they don't have the time. You keep missing the advantages because you 'have to be right'.

You gloss over the fact that the defence line is easier for the ref to judge and any offside is clearly illuminated. If all the defence line is in a straight line and still only 7 or 8 metres back they never get pinged as a ref won't blow a penalty to decide a game. These are advantages over the fast play the ball at frenetic pace for the other participants.

My point is that teams want to give their kickers every opportunity to pilot the kick over. By forcing a quick play the ball, it gives them more time and space to set themselves and pilot the kick over against a retreating defensive line. By giving the defence time to compose themselves, it makes their job easier than it ought to be.

Teams have enough to worry about than concerning themselves with the officials. The focus needs to be on getting the defence on the back-foot and positioning the football. If you start playing to make the officials life easier, you're only setting yourself up for disappointment.

 

[Huge]

My point is that teams want to give their kickers every opportunity to pilot the kick over. By forcing a quick play the ball, it gives them more time and space to set themselves and pilot the kick over against a retreating defensive line. By giving the defence time to compose themselves, it makes their job easier than it ought to be.

Teams have enough to worry about than concerning themselves with the officials. The focus needs to be on getting the defence on the back-foot and positioning the football. If you start playing to make the officials life easier, you're only setting yourself up for disappointment.

It's all well and good to think it's a retreating line and they're going to get onside before rushing the kicker but that doesn't happen, they don't get pinged, the ref has no reference point and you are as reliant on the ref with a fast ptb as you are with a protracted affair. My way guarantees they are onside as you simply do not ptb until they are and stationary. It's pretty obvious you cannot think about and ignore the advantages of greater time and control plus the advantage of a clearly defined line for the offside. I've been clear and think you either don't understand or cannot concede the obvious advantages which come with greater control. Hyper speed leads to frantic efforts, slow and measured allows for better timing. Please don't reply, it isn't neccessary.

 

[Big Pete]

Also, I wanted to take this opportunity to thank @Sproj and @I bleed Maroon for their weekly player ratings. I rarely if ever agree with it, but it's usually one of the more constructive posts in the thread and the one post I look forward to reading. Often you guys get taken to task over the ratings, but I genuinely appreciate the thought and effort you guys put in.

 

[ChewThePhatt]

Also, I wanted to take this opportunity to thank @Sproj and @I bleed Maroon for their weekly player ratings. I rarely if ever agree with it, but it's usually one of the more constructive posts in the thread and the one post I look forward to reading. Often you guys get taken to task over the ratings, but I genuinely appreciate the thought and effort you guys put in.

+1
@Sproj @I bleed Maroon

 

[I bleed Maroon]

I generally don't do an R&R (ratings and review) post after a loss, because I always fear the emotion a loss generates will get in the way and affect my views in too negative a direction. So it's best to just wait for the wins then assess where the boys are at with a clear head.

 

[I bleed Maroon]

Alright I'll give it a crack.

1. Boyd - He seems to be up and down like a yoyo at the moment. He has a solid as **** game last week then goes back to being a mediocre fullback and a hopeless captain the next. That lack of leadership in the dying stages of Thursdays game was just a textbook example of why I don't think he's a very good (c). 5
2. Oates - He was one of our best generally speaking, bagged a try and had plenty of run metres. His confidence under the high ball is still a bit suspect though. I find myself always clenching the cheeks when a bomb is coming his way. 8
3. Roberts - He had a very good night up until he tweaked his ankle. Always love watching him when he gets into the open. He was a passenger in the 2nd half though and Seibs probably should have dragged him for Staggs. Could do with a couple of games off to rest that ankle before the season really heats up. 6
4. Bird - His uptick in form continues to impress. He might even play himself into a position to challenge Boyd for the captaincy if he keeps it up. Having said that our left side defence was very rough on Thursday which needs to be tightened up. 7
5. Isaako - His rough run of form continues. He had clearly cleaned up his goalkicking during the week which was good to see, but that butchered try is just unforgivable for mine. The pass was clean, he was right on top of the line so all he needed to do was fall over with ball in hand. Instead he took his eyes off the ball and flubbed it which cost the team dearly. He needs a rocket. 4
6. Milford - He got the 3 votes from me. Milf was busting his ass all night to get us on the front foot. His general play kicking was the best I've seen it, he was throwing his body into tackles and, my god, he ran the ball a few times. Lets hope this is a sign Seibs has taken the shackles off. 9
7. Nikorima - The definition of "average" from Niko. Not many run metres, no line breaks, no tries or try assists. Just a real passenger type effort, especially in a crucial position. Comprehensively overshadowed by his halves partner. He's almost a footballer, but he's run out of time. 5
8. TPJ - He didn't reach the meteoric heights of last week, but was still our best forward by a mile. His hammies seem to be holding up well but I would be considering giving him a bit of a breather before the Origin period begins just to keep him as fresh as possible. 8
9. McC - Another one who is well and truly out of time to prove his worth to this side. His run metres were pathetic and despite racking up 42 tackles, McInnes still managed to match it with him while still achieving a fuckload more elsewhere. He is a protected species, there's just no getting around it. How we haven't gone to market for a quality hooker in the past 3 years is beyond me. 3
10. Joe O - Managed 100+ metres and 31 tackles, so not a terrible display from Joe by any means. He is definitely beginning to fall into that "safe and serviceable" forward role that is handy to have, but considering the breadth of our forward pack hopefuls we have on hand, he might wanna look over his shoulder a bit if he can't find another gear. 6
11. Glenn - Speaking of "safe and serviceable". That may as well be the tagline for Glenn's career at this point. Didn't impress on the stats sheet but didn't shame himself with any stupid errors or penalties either. The only thing keeping him in this side is his first grade experience and he is very short odds to be moved on at the end of the year when our young guys have more experience clocked. 5
12. Fifita - He outplayed his opposite number which really is all that need be said. Solid run metres and knows how to break the line. I'd like to see a bit more from him in tackles though. 7
13. Gillett - I feel like a broken record on this at this point but Gillo needs to be moved back to the edge. He is being very much wasted at 13 and with Lodge coming back next week which frees up Joe, there really isn't any excuse to persist with this any longer. 6

14. Staggs - Didn't get much game time so of course had a quiet evening. Made one real good line break towards the end but was ineffectual for the most part. Really should have come on to replace Jet when it was clear he was injured. 4
15. Sua - A pretty solid bench performance. Decent run metres but somewhat average tackle numbers. Might wanna think about lifting a bit to hang on to his spot. 6
16. Flegler - Didn't quite back up last week but still was very good off the bench. Give him another 20 or so games of first grade and he is gonna be some serious mongrel which this side could do with plenty more of. Very happy with him. 7
17. Fensom - Haven't got much to say about him to be honest. Considering his experience, he really offers sweet **** all. With Lodge coming back into the side, he's all but jettisoned. 4

 

[broncos4life]

Go for the try, not the FG which everyone expects. On the 4th or 5th, a short grubber behind the line with plenty of chasers, similar to Milf's kick for Glenn's try. Should be a set play option for those situations.

That is such a captain hindsight statement. If they go for that and the high percent outcomes come through, that being a turnover or turnover with 7 tackle set then you, is and every commentator is bagging them for going for the low percentage option when the field goal was there for the taking.

 

[rnabokov]

That is such a captain hindsight statement. If they go for that and the high percent outcomes come through, that being a turnover or turnover with 7 tackle set then you, is and every commentator is bagging them for going for the low percentage option when the field goal was there for the taking.

It's an option, an option which depends on the specific circumstances at the time, including how much match play remains, and the defensive structure facing you. I am not advocating it as the best option in this situation, just as an option as everybody is talking about FG's. There have been plenty of tries scored when the FG option has been rejected by a play maker with a bit of vision, and prepared to take a calculated risk.

If the opposition is expecting a FG then they can be taken by surprsie by a grubber behind the line with good kick-chase. The result is either a try or a line drop out where you get the ball back and they don't get a 7 tackle set.

As I said, it's an option depending on the circumstances, and has to be rehearsed as a set play. You just need a leader to call the play - something we lack.

 

[Big Pete]

That is such a captain hindsight statement. If they go for that and the high percent outcomes come through, that being a turnover or turnover with 7 tackle set then you, is and every commentator is bagging them for going for the low percentage option when the field goal was there for the taking.

Agreed, which is what I was trying to get at with the Glenn example.

There's moments where players should have done more, than there's moments where players did the right thing but it didn't pan out. Boyd passing it to Isaako instead of running it himself is something I'd consider as a hindsight call.

Honestly if they had have tried a grubber and it didn't come off, we would never hear the end of it and rightfully so.

 

[rnabokov]

Agreed, which is what I was trying to get at with the Glenn example.

There's moments where players should have done more, than there's moments where players did the right thing but it didn't pan out. Boyd passing it to Isaako instead of running it himself is something I'd consider as a hindsight call.

Honestly if they had have tried a grubber and it didn't come off, we would never hear the end of it and rightfully so.

Well, we tried the FG and it didn't come off and we haven't heard the end of it.

 

[Big Pete]

Well, we tried the FG and it didn't come off and we haven't heard the end of it.

Because the kick missed, not because the idea was wrong.

The grubber kick is akin to Ben Hunt running it on the last.

 

[rnabokov]

Because the kick missed, not because the idea was wrong.

The grubber kick is akin to Ben Hunt running it on the last.

Seemed to have worked for him - what, 2 tries?

What counts is what's in front of you, and then selecting the best play for the situation. In the FG scenario, why did Isaako's kick miss? For mine, it was because the set up was a little too rushed.

 

[Porthoz]

It was a stupid play, period.

No one with a bit of a footy brain makes a deliberate choice to gamble on a field goal from close to 40 meters with one minute on the clock, 2 more tackles and the score tied, knowing there is a reasonable chance you're handing the opposition a 7 tackle set and enough time to punish you.

The excuse about the kicker being rushed closer to the goal line is absolute nonsense, because the opposition will be keeping an eye on your kickers and rush them anyway as soon as one gets the ball, especially if that player is normally nowhere to be found near the position he is, like Isaako was.
I highly doubt the success ratio of field goal attempts from close up isn't better than those from further away (unless your name is Ben Hunt, where it will be hovering around 0), as long as you set yourself 20 mtrs from the defensive line and you get a good ball from your dummy half, there is no way any defender gets close enough to interfere.

And if the pass is crap, or anything else happens where you're unlikely to get a good shot at goal, you're at least close enough to go for an in-goal grubber and try to get a repeat set.

 

[Big Pete]

Seemed to have worked for him - what, 2 tries?

What counts is what's in front of you, and then selecting the best play for the situation. In the FG scenario, why did Isaako's kick miss? For mine, it was because the set up was a little too rushed.

Sorry I would have thought Ben Hunt running it on the last in the Semi Final would have been a universal reference. It was the same rationale. He didn't back himself to get a good kick away and tried to catch the Rabbits off guard. Hunt was lambasted on the play because it wasn't the common sense option.

A minute on the clock, scores level you've got to set up for the field goal. It's easier option with far less variables to worry about.

I disagree with the idea of treating the field goal as a last resort. When the scores are level it has to be the priority. When the shots on the team has to take it. I was fine with the decision and it looked like Isaako had it before the late fade. Now I've never been a kicker but I'd be interested to hear how Isaako achieved that fade. Whether that's his technique or a poor strike.

 

[heartly87]

TPJ reminds me a lot of a young Ben Teo. He can hit and he plays very up tempo. This can result i brain explosions in a young man trying to put a stamp on a game. In due course he will figure out timing as other raging bulls have done. It comes with experience.

To be fair we gave a poor preformance and still only lost by a point. There is a lot of improvement in this team and that my friends is a good thing. A lot like 2015 we may find that our first 10 games are a bit up and down but as long as we are in the contest and competing we will improve. The most important thing will be keeping the team healthy and keeping the boys together unless somebody really needs dropping. Consistency is the key to forming complete performances.