What is happening at the Broncos?

[Kimlo]

There is no doubt having Smith, Cronk and Slater has made a huge difference, just like it did for Bennett in his golden era of the 90's to have: Locky, Alfie, both Walters brothers and arguably not one, but two of the best forward packs ever assembled in the NRL, not to speak of the handy backs in Renouf, Tuqiri, Sailor, Hancock, Smith, Carne, etc...
Are you saying that Bennett got carried by those star studded teams?

Regardless, we're deviating from the point, which I assume was the whole point of this concerted deflection.

And the point is: Are the Broncos performing as well as they should? If not, why not, whose responsibility is it, and what could be improved?

[EDIT] I swear I had not read your reply before posting mine @JAHHW , you stole my thunder.

That's all fine, except Bennett HAS proven he can win with different rosters. Bellamy absolutely has not. Every premiership, including the cheating ones have been with the same core star players. Doesn't matter that Bennett has had superstar teams, the argument was can he adapt, and he has won premierships with significantly different playing groups, and different clubs. So yes he can? Bellamy has not proven that, maybe he can, but there's certainly no proof.

As for how we're playing now, it's not good enough, but it's not bad either. I'd place us above average, but we have at the very least been contenders or thereabouts since WB has returned. Before that we would be lucky to make the finals and then get bundled out easily. There's a lot to fix but as a Broncos fan I'm bloody happy WB is back. The years under Henjak and Griffin were depressing.

I guess the real argument is, does WB have it in him to fix our current problems and get them to a premiership? I don't know. Premierships are hard and you need luck with injuries amongst other things, but I definitely believe we'll be contenders, I'd have us about 4th in the pecking order.

 

[Number6]

The WB sycophants amongst you make some valid claims about his perceived qualities, but you also talk some absolute shit with it in feeble attempts to mask your outright and pathetic idolatry.

This has all descended out of hand.... most of us at least are broncos fans and want team to do well just the way we see that happening is different.

Can we take a step back on the us vs them type stuff?

We all agree WB has good points and bad. I think a lot of us including myself are frustrated with the lack of premierships for Broncs for far too long especially after losing it so closely in 15.

Fact is WB isn’t going anywhere unless he wants to whatever perceived strengths and weaknesses. Been in game so long which is a tribute has had more than fair share of successes and some failures. Unfortunately like it or not Boyd isn’t going anywhere like it or not (for whatever reason one believes).

The rest is hypothetical, while I have strong views happy to admit aren’t able to prove as facts so can acknowledge other viewpoints.

For me hope hope it comes good but don’t see us in a premiership window for a couple of years without big changes and while that isn’t the be and end all of supporting teams am sick of broncos teams being so inconsistent and letter crap teams play better than they are and good teams like Melbourne continually bend us over.

What I would like is consistent effort, accountability and playing like they actually train together once or so a week, hopefully something we can agree on.

 

[Huge]

The WB sycophants amongst you make some valid claims about his perceived qualities, but you also talk some absolute shit with it in feeble attempts to mask your outright and pathetic idolatry.

Quotidian Porthoz post, vapid and jejune.

 

[1910]

That's all fine, except Bennett HAS proven he can win with different rosters. Bellamy absolutely has not. Every premiership, including the cheating ones have been with the same core star players. Doesn't matter that Bennett has had superstar teams, the argument was can he adapt, and he has won premierships with significantly different playing groups, and different clubs. So yes he can? Bellamy has not proven that, maybe he can, but there's certainly no proof.

Out of interest did you have the same reservations about Bennett pre 2008? That he has to leave to prove himself?

Bennett has come back to clubs twice now because moving isn't that great.

I don't think you need to move to prove yourself, teams change every three to four years and probably even less time now given the cap. The Storm have a massive turn over of players. Last year 10 players made their debut for the Storm and they used 31 players- third most. If Bellamy was just getting by on doing exactly what he was doing in 2003 they'd be a terrible side.

 

[Porthoz]

Quotidian Porthoz post, vapid and jejune.

Yep, exactly like the post I replied to, except mine is slightly less inaccurate.

P.S. I can play this hyperbole game all day long.

 

[Kimlo]

Out of interest did you have the same reservations about Bennett pre 2008? That he has to leave to prove himself?

Bennett has come back to clubs twice now because moving isn't that great.

I don't think you need to move to prove yourself, teams change every three to four years and probably even less time now given the cap. The Storm have a massive turn over of players. Last year 10 players made their debut for the Storm and they used 31 players- third most. If Bellamy was just getting by on doing exactly what he was doing in 2003 they'd be a terrible side.

He doesn't have to move clubs, but all of his success is literally under the same spine. He has to prove he can do it with a different squad. Fringe players don't matter a whole lot when you have 3 of the best ever to lead them every week. Smith is the kind of player who makes everyone play above their pay grade.

If he can do it post Smith, by all means he'll cement himself as a great coach. For now he has 2 premierships, under the same squad, cheating years don't count so he has a way to go before he can be talked about as an all time great coach.

 

[broncos4life]

The WB sycophants amongst you make some valid claims about his perceived qualities, but you also talk some absolute shit with it in feeble attempts to mask your outright and pathetic idolatry.

I really don’t think this is ok.

 

[Porthoz]

He doesn't have to move clubs, but all of his success is literally under the same spine. He has to prove he can do it with a different squad. Fringe players don't matter a whole lot when you have 3 of the best ever to lead them every week. Smith is the kind of player who makes everyone play above their pay grade.

If he can do it post Smith, by all means he'll cement himself as a great coach. For now he has 2 premierships, under the same squad, cheating years don't count so he has a way to go before he can be talked about as an all time great coach.

So, should we eliminate the 90's for Bennett. Those squads were legal at the time, but no way would they be today...

I really don’t think this is ok.

But this is?

The WB deathriders amongst you make some valid claims about his perceived shortcomings but you also talk some absolute shit with it in feeble attempts to mask your outright and pathetic jealousy.

 

[ettybay]

It amazes me the number of delusional people here who think they know better than Bennett. Pretty sure Paul White hasn't knocked on any of their doors. Sure Wayne isn't perfect (he'd be the first to admit it) but all the members here combined would still fall well short of Wayne's ability as a coach.

 

[Kimlo]

So, should we eliminate the 90's for Bennett. Those squads were legal at the time, but no way would they be today...

Sure, if we were to judge Bennett by ONLY the 90's, he wouldn't be a GOAT coach. That's exactly my point? It looks like you're reaching to argue a point I'm not even making.

I have not said Bellamy is a shit coach, I said he's probably an excellent coach, but until he does it with different squads at the very least, he can't be spoken about in the same discussion as Bennett. That's just cold hard facts, there is really nothing to argue there.

Bennett has more premierships.
Bennett has had premierships under different spines.
Bennett has had premierships under totally different NRL eras.
Bennett has had premierships with different clubs, including an entirely different team, coaching staff, and culture.
Bennett has had success at both International and SOO levels.

Like they are so far apart from being compared it's not even funny.
Bellamy has proven nothing except that if he has a really good spine, he can get the best out of them. He has proven nothing beyond that, at any level of the game, and he arguably would have lost that spine he put together if he didn't cheat the cap. Smith was seriously considering going to the Titans when they put a huge offer in for him, but surprise surprise he stayed for an even bigger offer at Melbourne.

How can you even make the argument that Bellamy is more adaptable when ALL the evidence points to Bennett not only being more successful, but doing it across a far broader spectrum of variables.

 

[broncos4life]

So, should we eliminate the 90's for Bennett. Those squads were legal at the time, but no way would they be today...


But this is?

So because he had a swipe at a group yeah makes it ok for you to?

 

[WASSHHH]

I haven't seen a single poster defend WB by writing he is without fault. No poster has stated he hasn't made mistakes. What we won't stand idly by for and allow is the idiotic notion that he has achieved his success solely on the back of elite players.

That claim was totally destroyed after his fantastic achievement at St George, taking an nrl average team to two minor premierships and winning a grand final. This single achievement, not accomplished by any St George team in the previous 31 years put that spurious claim in the shithouse where it belonged.

The WB deathriders amongst you make some valid claims about his perceived shortcomings but you also talk some absolute shit with it in feeble attempts to mask your outright and pathetic jealousy.

Please. Trotting out the same worn out garbage about Bennett’s Dragons being an average squad is about as valid as the argument people try to make about Bennett’s record at the Knights proving he cannot coach. Before Bennett arrived at the Dragons, they were perennial underachievers. Anyone who follows League knows that.

Now before you go off on a rant using big words to try and make me feel inadequate because I dare to disagree with you; yes, Bennett got the best out of them, but he simply did not come along like some sort of Messiah and turn park footballers into NRL heavyweights like your comment would have people believe.

If you want to be completely unbiased and talk about a coach achieving success with a team of relative no names (and it pains me to say it), Tim Sheens and the 2005 Tigers is the best example of that. Certainly not Bennett and the 2010 Dragons.

 

[benny8866]

Anybody else see this? he just posted this on his live blog

 

[Porthoz]

Sure, if we were to judge Bennett by ONLY the 90's, he wouldn't be a GOAT coach. That's exactly my point? It looks like you're reaching to argue a point I'm not even making.

I have not said Bellamy is a shit coach, I said he's probably an excellent coach, but until he does it with different squads at the very least, he can't be spoken about in the same discussion as Bennett. That's just cold hard facts, there is really nothing to argue there.

Bennett has more premierships.
Bennett has had premierships under different spines.
Bennett has had premierships under totally different NRL eras.
Bennett has had premierships with different clubs, including an entirely different team, coaching staff, and culture.
Bennett has had success at both International and SOO levels.

Like they are so far apart from being compared it's not even funny.
Bellamy has proven nothing except that if he has a really good spine, he can get the best out of them. He has proven nothing beyond that, at any level of the game, and he arguably would have lost that spine he put together if he didn't cheat the cap. Smith was seriously considering going to the Titans when they put a huge offer in for him, but surprise surprise he stayed for an even bigger offer at Melbourne.

How can you even make the argument that Bellamy is more adaptable when ALL the evidence points to Bennett not only being more successful, but doing it across a far broader spectrum of variables.

I didn't say Bellamy is more adaptable, only his tactics. I also never started this comparison to other coaches. This all happened because some people like to muddy the waters, so they can point fingers (not talking about you). And muddying the waters is making a comparison between coaches as a whole, when the discussion is only about a single, albeit important aspect of the job: Tactics (the game plan and player selection to apply it).

I'm doing a reset and will try to stay above the sewer which this back and forth between sides has been the last couple of days.

Are Wayne's tactics suited to this roster?

First, what are those tactics?
They are simply to ensure the opponent scores less points than your team by means of grinding defense, kicking game control, sweep fullback play and individual efforts. That's it! Those are his tactics, and they have not changed over his career, EVER.

Second, which players suit said tactics?
This is where the Dragons premiership comes in. Their roster wasn't full of stars, but it was perfect for those tactics, with most of his players capable of that grinding unforgiving defense, great game control from Hornby, great kicking game from Soward, and a fullback very very good at the sweep overlap play from where so many Dragons tries came.
It was ugly, but terribly efficient, which is why the Dragons were the benchmark in those years, and deservedly so!

Note that those tactics are certainly efficient when the attitude is there, which is where WB normally excels at. His work behind the scenes in terms of motivation of individuals and team alike is absolutely unparalleled, as is the relationship he builds with most players, which is why they buy into him in the first place. I don't think anyone doubts that!

Now if you ignore the superstar teams of the 90's, which would probably have won the titles regardless of which tactic was used, the Broncos rosters over the last 2 decades have had more individual quality than those Dragons. We've had arguably the best player to ever lace a boot (also known as the god of rugby league), as well as some other fantastic players, like Hodgo, Webke, Civo or Parker. Yet, we were never the benchmark, not even in 2006 when we did win the title.

Why? Because in the age of the salary cap, unless you have a Dragons type roster, defense and game control will win you most games, but you also need tactical attacking creativity and variation to be that benchmark. I've never seen the latter from Bennett, have you? (Don't confuse individual brilliance with tactical brilliance)

Based on the above, my answer to the original question, is absolutely NO.
Wayne may and will get the players to believe and work hard for each other. We will probably win more games than we'll lose, but we don't have a roster that will be able to defend and control a game well enough to consistently keep the better teams at bay, nor do we have the tactical attacking creativity to consistently score more points than them, which is what this team needs imo (outside of an organiser of course).

 

[Porthoz]

So because he had a swipe at a group yeah makes it ok for you to?

My post was pure sarcasm aimed at his depiction of a group of people.
I didn't see your post condemning his original swipe though. I must have missed it...

 

[john1420]

Very few think Bennett is the Messiah and 100% perfect without fault

He is, however, a damn fine coach, and at this stage at least one of the finest ever

The evidence is quite clear that he is better overall than Bellamy, but is he better than Bellamy today and in to the future?

Only time will tell, but what we know for sure is that Bellamy does not have any recorded success outside of the Storm system, and without the best spine in the history of the game

Does that mean he can't be successful with Smith/Cronk/Slater?

No of course not, it just makes him unproven outside of them

It means that if Brisbane were to sign Bellamy as Wayne's successor, I won't be jumping for joy proclaiming that we just signed the recipe for success - that would be yet to be proven

 

[lynx000]

I haven't seen a single poster defend WB by writing he is without fault. No poster has stated he hasn't made mistakes. What we won't stand idly by for and allow is the idiotic notion that he has achieved his success solely on the back of elite players.

That claim was totally destroyed after his fantastic achievement at St George, taking an nrl average team to two minor premierships and winning a grand final. This single achievement, not accomplished by any St George team in the previous 31 years put that spurious claim in the shithouse where it belonged.

The WB deathriders amongst you make some valid claims about his perceived shortcomings but you also talk some absolute shit with it in feeble attempts to mask your outright and pathetic jealousy.

Didn't you know, the success of that St George team was all down to Brown's coaching. Bennett just walked into a premiership team in waiting.

 

[lynx000]

I didn't say Bellamy is more adaptable, only his tactics. I also never started this comparison to other coaches. This all happened because some people like to muddy the waters, so they can point fingers (not talking about you). And muddying the waters is making a comparison between coaches as a whole, when the discussion is only about a single, albeit important aspect of the job: Tactics (the game plan and player selection to apply it).

I'm doing a reset and will try to stay above the sewer which this back and forth between sides has been the last couple of days.

Are Wayne's tactics suited to this roster?

First, what are those tactics?
They are simply to ensure the opponent scores less points than your team by means of grinding defense, kicking game control, sweep fullback play and individual efforts. That's it! Those are his tactics, and they have not changed over his career, EVER.

Second, which players suit said tactics?
This is where the Dragons premiership comes in. Their roster wasn't full of stars, but it was perfect for those tactics, with most of his players capable of that grinding unforgiving defense, great game control from Hornby, great kicking game from Soward, and a fullback very very good at the sweep overlap play from where so many Dragons tries came.
It was ugly, but terribly efficient, which is why the Dragons were the benchmark in those years, and deservedly so!

Note that those tactics are certainly efficient when the attitude is there, which is where WB normally excels at. His work behind the scenes in terms of motivation of individuals and team alike is absolutely unparalleled, as is the relationship he builds with most players, which is why they buy into him in the first place. I don't think anyone doubts that!

Now if you ignore the superstar teams of the 90's, which would probably have won the titles regardless of which tactic was used, the Broncos rosters over the last 2 decades have had more individual quality than those Dragons. We've had arguably the best player to ever lace a boot (also known as the god of rugby league), as well as some other fantastic players, like Hodgo, Webke, Civo or Parker. Yet, we were never the benchmark, not even in 2006 when we did win the title.

Why? Because in the age of the salary cap, unless you have a Dragons type roster, defense and game control will win you most games, but you also need tactical attacking creativity and variation to be that benchmark. I've never seen the latter from Bennett, have you? (Don't confuse individual brilliance with tactical brilliance)

Based on the above, my answer to the original question, is absolutely NO.
Wayne may and will get the players to believe and work hard for each other. We will probably win more games than we'll lose, but we don't have a roster that will be able to defend and control a game well enough to consistently keep the better teams at bay, nor do we have the tactical attacking creativity to consistently score more points than them, which is what this team needs imo (outside of an organiser of course).

A fair and in my view fairly accurate summary.