Where to From Here? Let's Plan for 2021...er...2025

[Mum-the-meatloaf]

So in a job where your performances quite literally impact whether or not you win, which also happens to be the sole purpose of competitive / professional sport, the union doesn’t allow the club to measure players against set KPI’s?

That’ll do me. No wonder players are becoming more and more entitled.

Unions are a joke, that's why.

I think KPI based incentives would be great, motivate players a bit more. Seen too many times players get a good contract and go to shit afterwards.

 

[1910]

So in a job where your performances quite literally impact whether or not you win, which also happens to be the sole purpose of competitive / professional sport, the union doesn’t allow the club to measure players against set KPI’s?

That’ll do me. No wonder players are becoming more and more entitled.

You stay in the team if you perform. Your pay can’t be tied to making 50 tackles a game or scoring 32 tries in a season.

Clubs can have goals/KPI for positions and team but it can’t relate to pay.

 

[WASSHHH]

You stay in the team if you perform. Your pay can’t be tied to making 50 tackles a game or scoring 32 tries in a season.

Clubs can have goals/KPI for positions and team but it can’t relate to pay.

And they still get paid whether or not they’re in the team.

I’d be willing to bet if they put individual KPI’s in place there would be far less complacency.

After all, just about every person over the age of 18 who works full time, some getting paid less than $50k / annum, have KPI’s measuring their individual performance.

Lucky for the unions though. We can’t put unreasonable expectations on these blokes getting paid, as an absolute bare minimum, in excess of $100k / annum to play a game.

 

[rnabokov]

Yep. We need KPI's. Detailed, specific, a micro analysis - enthusiasm quotients, effort parameters ... $1 per tackle, $5 a fend

And statisticians and analysts to measure and assess, then present the results in spreadsheets and powerpoints, hi lighted so we can See it in Bold.

Fantastic idea

 

[1910]

And they still get paid whether or not they’re in the team.

I’d be willing to bet if they put individual KPI’s in place there would be far less complacency.

After all, just about every person over the age of 18 who works full time, some getting paid less than $50k / annum, have KPI’s measuring their individual performance.

Lucky for the unions though. We can’t put unreasonable expectations on these blokes getting paid, as an absolute bare minimum, in excess of $100k / annum to play a game.

Easy to take advantage of players too. Some players will never have great stats, If you said Cam Smith had to run 100m a game to get paid he probably gets paid for 10 games in his career.

 

[WASSHHH]

Yep. We need KPI's. Detailed, specific, a micro analysis - enthusiasm quotients, effort parameters ... $1 per tackle, $5 a fend

And statisticians and analysts to measure and assess, then present the results in spreadsheets and powerpoints, hi lighted so we can See it in Bold.

Fantastic idea

Let’s say KPI’s on tackles made, tries scored etc. are a bad idea. What about KPI’s to measure serial missed tackles, continually not getting back on side, not chasing kicks, repeated dropped balls, simple errors in general.

The only consequence for certain players who seemingly make the same dumb mistakes / poor efforts over and over is that they continue to be paid exactly the same income to play reserve grade / train.

@1910 says KPI’s would make it easy to take advantage of players. That may be true, but tough shit, welcome to the real world boys.

I challenge you, or anyone else, to find another profession (outside of sport) where the average wage exceeds $200k / annum and doesn’t come with individual KPI’s.

When it suits them, the players are quick to point out that it’s just a business these days. Well surely we can’t just tell Flegler (just an example as he signed an extension recently) his job description is “Front Rower” and pay him $350k a year for it?

 

[rnabokov]

Let’s say KPI’s on tackles made, tries scored etc. are a bad idea. What about KPI’s to measure serial missed tackles, continually not getting back on side, not chasing kicks, repeated dropped balls, simple errors in general.

The only consequence for certain players who seemingly make the same dumb mistakes / poor efforts over and over is that they continue to be paid exactly the same income to play reserve grade / train.

@1910 says KPI’s would make it easy to take advantage of players. That may be true, but tough shit, welcome to the real world boys.

I challenge you, or anyone else, to find another profession (outside of sport) where the average wage exceeds $200k / annum and doesn’t come with individual KPI’s.

When it suits them, the players are quick to point out that it’s just a business these days. Well surely we can’t just tell Flegler (just an example as he signed an extension recently) his job description is “Front Rower” and pay him $350k a year for it?

It's the philosophy behind, and the expression of, KPI's that troubles me. Of course HR management is full of KPI's. It's a another employer jargon for quantifying outputs - widgets and gidgets, inputs and outputs. I worked as a union organiser for 20 years. I have a reasonable understanding of exactly what they are, and how they work and don't work. Too often, as for example @1910 alluded, it can be a tool to exploit, take advantage of and manipulate a worker.

I just don't see a discussion about KPI's in terms of that management jargon as relevant to football, in that KPI's were developed as an outcome of profit driven econometric modelling which abstracts human behaviour from the performance of work. It is a laboratory model vivisecting people into marks on an artificial scorecard. It attempts to quantify through micromanagement of tasks cut up and pasted into spreadsheets and powerpoints at team meetings where people like James Roberts sign their name over and over as a measure of their understanding and commitment to the KPI model.

As well, my point about KPI's (ewww) in terms of NRL is simple. I have no doubt that Walters and his team are fully prepared and armed with all the "KPI's" they need to assess the team's and individual players' performance, particularly in light of the fiasco of 2020. IMO It will be based on behaviours and not statistical trending, the absolute reverse of Seibold's econometric modelling.

A focus on KPIs versus behaviors can lead to useless, if not stupid actions. What is more important is to look at how the players integrate and communicate on the field, something I doubt can be measured in any meaningful way in terms of KPI metrics.

Micromanagement can get you there for a hot minute. Fear and intimidation will work for a while. Heavy incentives and hoopla will create a short-term lift. Ice cream and pizza can’t hurt either.

As I see it, our issues have first and foremost always been problems with attitude and team cohesion, motivation and a will to win, again for mine, far more important than and not quantifiable as KPI's. It's behaviour, not some abstract stats in isolation which too often is what an obsession with KPI's creates.

If there is one KPI that does matter though, it is winning. Good starting point.

 

[Finbar]

It'd be much easier to just drop them to QCup if they aren't performing up to scratch rather than stuff around with KPIs. If our players are okay with being dropped to reserve grade so long as they are getting paid, that's on the club for signing the wrong kind of players.

 

[WASSHHH]

It's the philosophy behind, and the expression of, KPI's that troubles me. Of course HR management is full of KPI's. It's a another employer jargon for quantifying outputs - widgets and gidgets, inputs and outputs. I worked as a union organiser for 20 years. I have a reasonable understanding of exactly what they are, and how they work and don't work. Too often, as for example @1910 alluded, it can be a tool to exploit, take advantage of and manipulate a worker.

I just don't see a discussion about KPI's in terms of that management jargon as relevant to football, in that KPI's were developed as an outcome of profit driven econometric modelling which abstracts human behaviour from the performance of work. It is a laboratory model vivisecting people into marks on an artificial scorecard. It attempts to quantify through micromanagement of tasks cut up and pasted into spreadsheets and powerpoints at team meetings where people like James Roberts sign their name over and over as a measure of their understanding and commitment to the KPI model.

As well, my point about KPI's (ewww) in terms of NRL is simple. I have no doubt that Walters and his team are fully prepared and armed with all the "KPI's" they need to assess the team's and individual players' performance, particularly in light of the fiasco of 2020. IMO It will be based on behaviours and not statistical trending, the absolute reverse of Seibold's econometric modelling.

A focus on KPIs versus behaviors can lead to useless, if not stupid actions. What is more important is to look at how the players integrate and communicate on the field, something I doubt can be measured in any meaningful way in terms of KPI metrics.

Micromanagement can get you there for a hot minute. Fear and intimidation will work for a while. Heavy incentives and hoopla will create a short-term lift. Ice cream and pizza can’t hurt either.

As I see it, our issues have first and foremost always been problems with attitude and team cohesion, motivation and a will to win, again for mine, far more important than and not quantifiable as KPI's. It's behaviour, not some abstract stats in isolation which too often is what an obsession with KPI's creates.

If there is one KPI that does matter though, it is winning. Good starting point.

What bothers me is that some of these blokes get paid more than surgeons, the PM, CEO’s etc. yet have no concrete deliverables.

Win, you get paid $10k. Lose, you get paid $10k. Good wicket if you can get it I suppose.

Problem is, it is so far detached from the reality of the real world and just perpetuates the self-absorbed, self-serving, ‘poor me’ attitude of a lot of the modern players.

That said; I wholeheartedly agree micro-managing is not the way, I’d even go as far as to say that applies in any workplace. I also agree that building good attitude is more important than KPI’s.

But equally, I don’t think the union essentially absolving them of having any true responsibilities is a good idea either. I’d also say it’s not good for team morale when player X is getting paid 5 times player Y but delivering the same / less (Haas and Ofahengaue are a good example).

When the team starts losing, like we did, and the players start looking around the dressing shed at their peers, thinking to themselves that the bloke across the room is getting paid more, doing ****-all and getting away with it; is it little wonder there is no team cohesion.

 

[1910]

What bothers me is that some of these blokes get paid more than surgeons, the PM, CEO’s etc. yet have no concrete deliverables.

Win, you get paid $10k. Lose, you get paid $10k. Good wicket if you can get it I suppose.

Problem is, it is so far detached from the reality of the real world and just perpetuates the self-absorbed, self-serving, ‘poor me’ attitude of a lot of the modern players.

That said; I wholeheartedly agree micro-managing is not the way, I’d even go as far as to say that applies in any workplace. I also agree that building good attitude is more important than KPI’s.

But equally, I don’t think the union essentially absolving them of having any true responsibilities is a good idea either. I’d also say it’s not good for team morale when player X is getting paid 5 times player Y but delivering the same / less (Haas and Ofahengaue are a good example).

When the team starts losing, like we did, and the players start looking around the dressing shed at their peers, thinking to themselves that the bloke across the room is getting paid more, doing ****-all and getting away with it; is it little wonder there is no team cohesion.

The reason you can't do it with football is that so much of football is not stats driven. If you had a player in your team like Steve Renouf- he might only touch the ball three times a game, he never ran from dummy half and did bugger all passing. But he scored three tries and only had to run a total of 35m to do it.

Are you going to dock him pay?

Then you have guys worrying about it on the field, I need five more tackles, I will just flop here and there and get my stats up. Halves I need to kick on the third this set so my kick meters are up.

It would cause diversion in teams, if I am taking the first hit up the hardest one and struggling to make 8m for my side and you come along on the fourth tackle on the back of momentum and make 15m why should you get paid more than me?

Football isn't like selling houses, if you sell 20 houses you've done better than the guy that sold 12. Football has all these little not black and white things.

 

[theshed]

N

The reason you can't do it with football is that so much of football is not stats driven. If you had a player in your team like Steve Renouf- he might only touch the ball three times a game, he never ran from dummy half and did bugger all passing. But he scored three tries and only had to run a total of 35m to do it.

Are you going to dock him pay?

Then you have guys worrying about it on the field, I need five more tackles, I will just flop here and there and get my stats up. Halves I need to kick on the third this set so my kick meters are up.

It would cause diversion in teams, if I am taking the first hit up the hardest one and struggling to make 8m for my side and you come along on the fourth tackle on the back of momentum and make 15m why should you get paid more than me?

Football isn't like selling houses, if you sell 20 houses you've done better than the guy that sold 12. Football has all these little not black and white things.

And that’s not even mentioning coaches potentially sabotaging players KPIs to keep their price down etc. if your team is up by a big margin the coach will bring you off, or tell the halves to focus on the other side of the field etc.

 

[Allo]

It all needs to be in balance.

Players need to perform.

Coach needs to have the balls to drop players if they don't

Office needs to stay in their place so the coach can do what he needs to without feeling like he'll lose his job (within reason of course). Particularly if there's any notion or feeling of 'this bloke's on 600k, we need to have him playing' that clouds the coach's judgement.

 

[007]

Id have a KPI that they turn up and actually play like a team

 

[WASSHHH]

The reason you can't do it with football is that so much of football is not stats driven. If you had a player in your team like Steve Renouf- he might only touch the ball three times a game, he never ran from dummy half and did bugger all passing. But he scored three tries and only had to run a total of 35m to do it.

Are you going to dock him pay?

Then you have guys worrying about it on the field, I need five more tackles, I will just flop here and there and get my stats up. Halves I need to kick on the third this set so my kick meters are up.

It would cause diversion in teams, if I am taking the first hit up the hardest one and struggling to make 8m for my side and you come along on the fourth tackle on the back of momentum and make 15m why should you get paid more than me?

Football isn't like selling houses, if you sell 20 houses you've done better than the guy that sold 12. Football has all these little not black and white things.

As I said, I agree that KPI’s in certain areas of any workplace are absolutely useless.

But I also refuse to believe you can’t measure certain areas of a rugby league players performance against metrics. If they continue to fall short of them, you then have the capacity to do something about it.

Of course, some players will respond better than others. But that’s just the world.

But as an example, if you’re missing 10 or so tackles every week, that’s incredibly easy to measure. Certain players (Maloney is a great example) never improve in this area.

Perhaps if he got some form of other consequence for it, he would work harder on improving his defence. Perhaps not.

As you say, rugby league is not black and white. But equally, to dismiss the notion of KPI’s in rugby league completely is looking through a very black and white lens.

 

[M.B.88]

KPI argument is so dumb.

This isn't supercoach

You'll have players like Boyd going in to take his mandated 4 runs from dummy half per game, getting in the way of the actual creative players, having absolutely no net positive effect on the set of 6.

It is just so full of holes in practice

 

[whykickamoocow]

Wasn't Seibold driven by stats/kpi's?

 

[Gaz]

KPI argument is so dumb.

This isn't supercoach

You'll have players like Boyd going in to take his mandated 4 runs from dummy half per game, getting in the way of the actual creative players, having absolutely no net positive effect on the set of 6.

It is just so full of holes in practice

It’s a team sport and in the old days players were paid according to if they win lose or draw. Acknowledge the game was not professional then and so most had jobs. Now I’m not for a moment suggesting that, or anything like it could possibly be used these days but If a KPI system were to be implemented perhaps it also should be team based. Used as a bonus/ incentive system with for and against, position on ladder, top four, top eight etc used as well. Anyway just a thought.

 

[M.B.88]

It’s a team sport and in the old days players were paid according to if they win lose or draw. Acknowledge the game was not professional then and so most had jobs. Now I’m not for a moment suggesting that, or anything like it could possibly be used these days but If a KPI system were to be implemented perhaps it also should be team based. Used as a bonus/ incentive system with for and against, position on ladder, top four, top eight etc used as well. Anyway just a thought.

It breeds a culture of self interest and dilutes all formulas for team dynamics.

You cannot grade toughness and effectiveness on game results, effort etc. That's all subjective. You want players focusing on winning together, not achieving individual stats. It is the complete opposite of what this club needs