Bennett is NOT a Supercoach

[JaseC]

On a side note:

Anonymous Person; do you really consider representing Tonga and City/Country games as "representative" football in the true sense of the word? I understand that they are technically representative matches according to a dictionary (or the seemingly beloved wikipedia), but let's call a spade a spade here.

You and this entire forum know that to make PNG, Samoa, Tonga, City, Country, the Kiwi Squad, QLD (& now NSW) development squad aren't true indicators of success and/or players who can truly be compared to Australian, QLD, NSW and NZ representative's. Hell even three quarters of the English squad couldn't be compared to those true representative's.

I only ask because you chose to explain how Newcastle was full of Representative players, yet named players from minnow nations and country representatives. Perhaps to further your agenda?

 

[Big Pete]

Kevin Moore was the Dally M coach of the year in 2009.

Obviously an awesome coach. Gibson doesn't have s**t on him.

 

[Coxy]

I saw Melbourne win the title in 07 and 09 too. Turns out it was an illegal team which Bellamy no doubt had involvement in cultivating. If he had no idea about the total real cost of his squad then he's the worst nrl coach in history.

Fact: Bennett has coached 3 different clubs in 8 grand finals at nrl level and won 7 times. Bellamy nil.

Bennett has coached 7 origin series for 4 wins, 1 draw and 2 losses. Bellamy 3 series for 3 losses.

Bennett is a super coach by anyone's standards

 

[Kimlo]

might wanna check again....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._J._Giltinan_Shield

and also might want to check the rep player count again too, if you think that 10 is greater than 13. maybe ask an adult to help you with the maths.



le sigh. i give up with you. that one whooshed right over.

I find it funny how you discredit Bennet's premierships on the basis that we have a team that would beat anyone, yet when Bellamy wins with a team that is over the salary cap - in a big way - they are somehow legitimate and Bellamy deserves full credit?

A bit biased I would say.

 

[Nashy]

I find it funny how you discredit Bennet's premierships on the basis that we have a team that would beat anyone, yet when Bellamy wins with a team that is over the salary cap - in a big way - they are somehow legitimate and Bellamy deserves full credit?

A bit biased I would say.

A bit? lol.

 

[Foordy]

i watched those grand finals, i saw melbourne win. record books or not, melbourne won those premierships. you dont seem to understand.

If other teams were able to spend what the Storm did in those years, things could have been very different. if fact they did lose 2 GFs while cheating, if they were forced to lose quality players due to cap problems they probably wouldn't have made 4 GFs in a row, let alone win 2 of them.

IMO, its the same thing as an athlete who takes steroids, they still won their events but they DID it by cheating so it doesn't count.

 

[Bucking Beads]

How awesome is Craig Bellamy.. He managed to lose 2 Grand Finals while cheating the salary cap by over a million dollars. What a legend!!:lol:

 

[Anonymous person]

I find it funny how you discredit Bennet's premierships on the basis that we have a team that would beat anyone, yet when Bellamy wins with a team that is over the salary cap - in a big way - they are somehow legitimate and Bellamy deserves full credit?

A bit biased I would say.

i didnt discredit bennetts premierships lol. i love how you and a few others keep saying that, but i didnt. i never once said he didnt win them. he did. the teams of 1998 and 2000, however, couldve won without a coach. they were absolutely full of superstars at the top of the game, back in the days when the competition was basically a 3-4 horse race every year before the salary cap came along and made it the National Mediocre Rugby League.

also, yes the storm were HUGELY over the salary cap in a few of the years - 2006 they werent, 2007 they werent (they won a premiership this year too), but after that they really ramped up the salary cap cheating. but like ive said a dozen times before, not a single person on this forum or in the world can say that they wouldve lost one or more of their 'big 3' if they hadnt of payed them over and above the cap. and remember, the extra money was almost entirely spent on inglis, slater, and smith. they still have cronk, slater and smith now and theyre under the salary cap. surely if they were going to leave unless they got the big bucks, they wouldve when the cheating came to light, wouldnt they?

just because they were over the cap when they won, doesnt mean they wouldnt have won anyway.

I only ask because you chose to explain how Newcastle was full of Representative players, yet named players from minnow nations and country representatives. Perhaps to further your agenda?

Newcastle is full of representative players, full stop.

this is their rep players from that starting 13 ONLY INCLUDING AUS/NZ/ORIGIN:

Boyd - QLD, Australia
McManus - NSW
Sau - NZ
Tahu - NSW, Australia
Uate - NSW, Australia
Gidley - NSW, Australia
Mullen - NSW
Snowden - NSW, Australia
Buderus - NSW, Australia
Taia - NZ
Costigan - QLD

that is 11 - yes, eleven - out of their starting 13 that have played State of Origin, which is generally regarded as the best of the best, the pinnacle of rugby league. 11. out of 13. thats not tonga, not PNG, not Samoa, not City, not country, and not development squads. that is QLD, NSW, Australia, New Zealand.

so answer me this - is having 11 out of your starting 13 players having played for their state or country (country being one of the top 2 countries in the world for rugby league) NOT considered "full of representative players"?

if not, guess theres no such thing lol.

How awesome is Craig Bellamy.. He managed to lose 2 Grand Finals while cheating the salary cap by over a million dollars. What a legend!!:lol:

not quite. in 2006 when they lost they were 3 hundred k or so over. 2007 they won, 2008 they were pushing a million over iirc and they lost (with their most important player out of the GF remember), 2009 they won. 2010 they were a mill+ over and were caught. so really, only 2008 they were excessively over the limit and lost, and that was a combination of no Cameron Smith and versing probably the other best team of the last decade, Manly.

 

[Ari Gold]

Doesn't really make you good though. DCE has no rep honors and is almost universally considered better than Mullen.

Gillett has no rep honors but would you honestly take Taia over him?

Tahu has long been out of the rep scene. Nowhere near as good as he was.

Merritt has no major rep honors but I take him any day over McManus.

So yes, you are right in that the team is full of rep players, but that doesn't mean they are rep quality. Also, There are several teams choc full of rep players.

 

[Anonymous person]

Doesn't really make you good though. DCE has no rep honors and is almost universally considered better than Mullen.

Gillett has no rep honors but would you honestly take Taia over him?

Tahu has long been out of the rep scene. Nowhere near as good as he was.

Merritt has no major rep honors but I take him any day over McManus.

So yes, you are right in that the team is full of rep players, but that doesn't mean they are rep quality. Also, There are several teams choc full of rep players.

lol

DCE will most likely have rep honours this year. how could he have rep honours in his debut year when he has Thurston, Cronk and Lockyer in front of him? think about it lol.

Gillett will most likely have rep honours this year. with the wealth of backrowers QLD/Aus have, again, where would he have fit in a rep team? again, think before you speak.

Tahu played Origin in 2010 lol. "long been out of the rep scene".....

Merritt, well hes just one of those people that never get chosen for rep honours. there have been dozens of rep quality players who never made it there due to other factors. McManus did make it there though, fact.

"rep quality" is subjective. they are all rep players though, as much as it pains you to admit it.

also, who are the other teams with 11 Origin/Aus/NZ players in their starting team?

 

[m1c]

Using AP logic the Parramatta forward pack is better than the Storm.

Parra International and SOO reps - Hindmarsh, Fui, Maitua, Poore, McGuire, Mannah

Storm International and SOO reps - Ryles, Hoffman, Smith, Manu

SIX vs only FOUR reps.

AP, is the Parramatta pack really better than the Storms?

 

[Fozz]

AP, I still want to know why you're okay with the Storm being massively over the cap and you consider their grand final wins as legit. But when the Broncos 2006 team was over the salary cap by $30,000 or whatever it was a tainted premiership that you whinged about for months?

 

[Bucking Beads]

Even Tim Sheens has won more premierships then Bellamy lol

 

[Kimlo]

i didnt discredit bennetts premierships lol. i love how you and a few others keep saying that, but i didnt. i never once said he didnt win them. he did. the teams of 1998 and 2000, however, couldve won without a coach. they were absolutely full of superstars at the top of the game, back in the days when the competition was basically a 3-4 horse race every year before the salary cap came along and made it the National Mediocre Rugby League.

also, yes the storm were HUGELY over the salary cap in a few of the years - 2006 they werent, 2007 they werent (they won a premiership this year too), but after that they really ramped up the salary cap cheating. but like ive said a dozen times before, not a single person on this forum or in the world can say that they wouldve lost one or more of their 'big 3' if they hadnt of payed them over and above the cap. and remember, the extra money was almost entirely spent on inglis, slater, and smith. they still have cronk, slater and smith now and theyre under the salary cap. surely if they were going to leave unless they got the big bucks, they wouldve when the cheating came to light, wouldnt they?

just because they were over the cap when they won, doesnt mean they wouldnt have won anyway.



Newcastle is full of representative players, full stop.

this is their rep players from that starting 13 ONLY INCLUDING AUS/NZ/ORIGIN:

Boyd - QLD, Australia
McManus - NSW
Sau - NZ
Tahu - NSW, Australia
Uate - NSW, Australia
Gidley - NSW, Australia
Mullen - NSW
Snowden - NSW, Australia
Buderus - NSW, Australia
Taia - NZ
Costigan - QLD

that is 11 - yes, eleven - out of their starting 13 that have played State of Origin, which is generally regarded as the best of the best, the pinnacle of rugby league. 11. out of 13. thats not tonga, not PNG, not Samoa, not City, not country, and not development squads. that is QLD, NSW, Australia, New Zealand.

so answer me this - is having 11 out of your starting 13 players having played for their state or country (country being one of the top 2 countries in the world for rugby league) NOT considered "full of representative players"?

if not, guess theres no such thing lol.




not quite. in 2006 when they lost they were 3 hundred k or so over. 2007 they won, 2008 they were pushing a million over iirc and they lost (with their most important player out of the GF remember), 2009 they won. 2010 they were a mill+ over and were caught. so really, only 2008 they were excessively over the limit and lost, and that was a combination of no Cameron Smith and versing probably the other best team of the last decade, Manly.

Ok I'll play your game.

Anyone could have coached Melbourne to win/cheat those 2 grand finals.

Lol, 2 grand final losses with cheating teams - 3 straight origin losses, 0 premierships... LOL. Super coach indeed.

And oh - They lost Inglis when they stopped cheating the cap, you know the clive churchil player that helped them win a premiership?

 

[Ari Gold]

lol

DCE will most likely have rep honours this year. how could he have rep honours in his debut year when he has Thurston, Cronk and Lockyer in front of him? think about it lol.

Thank you for confirming my point that rep status doesn't necessarily equate to rep quality. DCE is rep quality but as yet has no honours due to the competition in his position. Mullen is the opposite - not rep quality but has the honours due to the dearth of competition at his position at the time he played for NSW.

"rep quality" is subjective. they are all rep players though, as much as it pains you to admit it.

also, who are the other teams with 11 Origin/Aus/NZ players in their starting team?

Manly (11)
Brett Stewart - NSW
David Williams - NSW & Aus
Jamie Lyon - NSW & Aus
Steve Matai - NZ
Kieran Foran - NZ
Jason King - NSW
Brent Kite - NSW & Aus
Matt Ballin - QLD
Tony Williams - Aus
Anthony Watmough - NSW & Aus
Glenn Stewart - NSW & Aus

And given you are so keen to make DCE count as a rep player, in your books that makes 12.

Dragons (11)
Brett Morris - NSW & Aus
Jason Nightingale - NZ
Beau Scott - NSW & Aus
Matt Cooper - NSW & Aus
Jamie Soward - NSW
Ben Hornby - NSW & Aus
Michael Weyman - NSW & Aus
Trent Merrin - NSW
Nathan Fien - NZ
Ben Creagh - NSW & Aus
Dean Young - NSW

Broncos (11)
Josh Hoffman - NZ
Gerard Beale - NZ
Jack Reed - ENG (Not in your list, but still counts as it isn't an islander nation)
Justin Hodges - QLD & Aus
Jharal Yow Yeh - QLD & Aus
Peter Wallace - NSW
Petero Civoniceva - QLD & Aus
Ben Hannant - QLD & Aus
Corey Parker - QLD & Aus
Sam Thaiday - QLD & Aus
Alex Glenn - NZ

Warriors (10)
Kevin Locke - NZ
Manu Vatuvei - NZ
Jerome Ropati - NZ
Krisnan Inu - NZ
Jacob Lillyman - QLD
Sam Rapira - NZ
Simon Mannering - NZ
Ben Matulino - NZ
Russell Packer - NZ
Elijah Taylor - NZ

Technically only 10, but Shaun Johnson will make it 11 soon enough.

Storm (10)
Billy Slater - QLD & Aus
Matt Duffie - NZ
Dane Nielsen - QLD
Anthony Quinn - NSW
Gareth Widdop - ENG
Cooper Cronk - QLD & Aus
Jason Ryles - NSW & Aus
Ryan Hoffman - NSW & Aus
Sika Manu - NZ
Cameron Smith - QLD & Aus


Tigers (9)
Lote Tuqiri - QLD & Aus
Chris Lawrence - Aus
Benji Marshall - NZ
Adam Blair - NZ
Gareth Ellis - ENG
Chris Heighington - ENG
Robbie Farah - NSW & Aus
Keith Galloway - NSW & Aus
Matt Utai - NZ

Now, a number of players mentioned I don't think are of particularly high quality, or are long past their prime (Hoffman, Quinn etc.) but it goes to show a lot of teams around the league have a high number of rep players. Does that mean all those teams should win?

 

[JaseC]

Thank you for confirming my point that rep status doesn't necessarily equate to rep quality. DCE is rep quality but as yet has no honours due to the competition in his position. Mullen is the opposite - not rep quality but has the honours due to the dearth of competition at his position at the time he played for NSW.



Manly (11)
Brett Stewart - NSW
David Williams - NSW & Aus
Jamie Lyon - NSW & Aus
Steve Matai - NZ
Kieran Foran - NZ
Jason King - NSW
Brent Kite - NSW & Aus
Matt Ballin - QLD
Tony Williams - Aus
Anthony Watmough - NSW & Aus
Glenn Stewart - NSW & Aus

And given you are so keen to make DCE count as a rep player, in your books that makes 12.

Dragons (11)
Brett Morris - NSW & Aus
Jason Nightingale - NZ
Beau Scott - NSW & Aus
Matt Cooper - NSW & Aus
Jamie Soward - NSW
Ben Hornby - NSW & Aus
Michael Weyman - NSW & Aus
Trent Merrin - NSW
Nathan Fien - NZ
Ben Creagh - NSW & Aus
Dean Young - NSW

Broncos (11)
Josh Hoffman - NZ
Gerard Beale - NZ
Jack Reed - ENG (Not in your list, but still counts as it isn't an islander nation)
Justin Hodges - QLD & Aus
Jharal Yow Yeh - QLD & Aus
Peter Wallace - NSW
Petero Civoniceva - QLD & Aus
Ben Hannant - QLD & Aus
Corey Parker - QLD & Aus
Sam Thaiday - QLD & Aus
Alex Glenn - NZ

Warriors (10)
Kevin Locke - NZ
Manu Vatuvei - NZ
Jerome Ropati - NZ
Krisnan Inu - NZ
Jacob Lillyman - QLD
Sam Rapira - NZ
Simon Mannering - NZ
Ben Matulino - NZ
Russell Packer - NZ
Elijah Taylor - NZ

Technically only 10, but Shaun Johnson will make it 11 soon enough.

Storm
Billy Slater - QLD & Aus
Matt Duffie - NZ
Dane Nielsen - QLD
Anthony Quinn - NSW
Gareth Widdop - ENG
Cooper Cronk - QLD & Aus
Jason Ryles - NSW & Aus
Ryan Hoffman - NSW & Aus
Sika Manu - NZ
Cameron Smith - QLD & Aus


Tigers (9)
Lote Tuqiri - QLD & Aus
Chris Lawrence - Aus
Benji Marshall - NZ
Adam Blair - NZ
Gareth Ellis - ENG
Chris Heighington - ENG
Robbie Farah - NSW & Aus
Keith Galloway - NSW & Aus
Matt Utai - NZ

Now, a number of players mentioned I don't think are of particularly high quality, or are long past their prime (Hoffman, Quinn etc.) but it goes to show a lot of teams around the league have a high number of rep players. Does that mean all those teams should win?

Great post Ari Gold. I was making a list of Storm rep players 06-11 and realised, "why bother arguing with someone who won't listen?"

AP; Ari Gold has the proof in this post. "Rep players" does not equate to rep quality players, nor does it guarantee a finals berth or the mark of a successful coach. As such, Bennett still has to coach his teams to success.

Do you agree AP? Or will you simply type more until we all just give up debating, hence you have some misguided notion of "winning" an internet argument?

P.S. If it didn't pose a threat of opening up a bigger debate, I would have suggested looking at European Soccer clubs to see that clubs with champion players, don't automatically win competitions, without great coaches/managers.

 

[Porthoz]

When you look at the best possible team, Newcastle has 11 "rep" players and the Broncos have 10, yet I would only take Uate and Snowden (for when Civo retires) from their squad.

The difference in quality and potential is so abysmal it isn't funny.

Half of the Newcastle "reps" are either "has beens" or one time hole pluggers that will never see a rep jersey again. But hey, they're "reps" so they must be awesome and any idiot could coach them to a premiership...

As for Bellamy, any significant result outside of last year's minor premiership is to be discarded, as he played outside the rules that others were constricted to.

 

[Porthoz]

Isn't Shaun Johnson a NZ rep already? I could have sworn he played in the 4 nations...:confused: