I hate the media!

[Kimlo]

None of the Bulldogs have come out and said what REALLY happened in Coffs Harbour.
There's numerous other incidents that have never been made public that a lot of ex-players know about.

Players stick together. They protect eachother. That's why Johns hasn't named anyone else. he's protecting them, they won't contradict him.

My understanding is that she willingly engaged in group sex and never said no when more invited themselves in? If true it's disgusting behaviour by the players and shows a complete lack of morals, but if you're not going to say no when you feel uncomfortable and you don't want to be traumatized then maybe consenting to a threesome with some NRL players isn't the smartest of ideas to begin with.

Go back and read some earlier stuff from me. There are documented cases, lots of them, when being sexually assaulted or otherwise traumatised people lose the ability to speak, move, etc. It's called shock. That would support the diagnosis of trauma too.

She was a willing participant in all events that occurred and even encouraged the guys in the room saying come on, who's next. Yet because she was traumatised by the incident the players should be punished?

If she was a willing participant in all events and encouraged guys in the room (Johns's claim) then she wouldn't be traumatised would she? Great logic.

Well isn't your logic great, if she was traumatised then it must be because she was sexually assaulted, no other reason is possible.

 

[schmix]

why would he lie???

If he does lie and there was 10 - 15 people in the room, there is every chance he would get caught out and suffer even greater from it. The media world is already against him, so lies would only make it far far worse; if he tells the truth and it's the same as his story 7 years ago, and same as the other people in the room, then the hole gets no deeper.

Why?? To protect himself! For starters, we have no idea who the other people in the room were, so they would actually have to come forward and admit their involvement - not going to happen. Secondly, one of them would have to come along and say "actually she wasn't up for it, she was cowering and crying the whole time" - also not going to happen.

And whilst I agree that the players should have acted differently, it seems to me that people are excusing this woman from being responsible for both her welfare and her actions.

I think most agree that her behaviour was stupid, but if a woman walks down a dangerous street alone at night then gets mugged, do you say she was responsible? Someone else's stupidity does not give people an excuse to treat them badly.

 

[mjc]

Now in the context of this, whether or not she was drunk is irrelevant right now, but from what Johns says (girl motioning for guys to have sex with her) and what she hasn't said (stop) leads us to believe that at the time the event was happening, she was all for it and didn't have any inhibitions. But the next day, she could be freaking out proper and that is when she starts to become stressed, leading to trauma etc.

Aaand one more time for those who like to skim read. Post traumatic stress disorder is, by definition, a "stress disorder" that occurs "post trauma". You have to experience a traumatic event in order to be diagnosed with it. It is NOT a "traumatic stress disorder" that occurs post-any event. This suggests that she experienced this event as a traumatic one, not that she enjoyed it at the time and woke up with regrets.

Could this "stress disorder" be something that manifests itself as time passes and she feels a growing sense of shame, regret, questions herself over what happened, questions how it sits with her morals and remembers the incident in a bad light that is self perpetuating, getting worse and worse?

I think so.

 

[schmix]

Could this "stress disorder" be something that manifests itself as time passes and she feels a growing sense of shame, regret, questions herself over what happened, questions how it sits with her morals and remembers the incident in a bad light that is self perpetuating, getting worse and worse?

I think so.

No. But nice try to make up a definition that suits your cause.

Official definition, for those who care, from the American Psychiatric Association:

Posttraumatic Stress Disorder ( PTSD ) is a anxiety disorder that develops after a severe traumatic event or experience. Several distressing symptoms are common in the person with PTSD, including Psychic numbing, emotion anesthesia, increased arousal, or unwanted re-experiencing of the trauma. These symptoms can effect any sex or age group. Anxiety, irritability, and depression are also common in people who have PTSD. People with PTSD have a diminished ability to experience emotion, including tenderness or intimacy. There may be problems falling or staying asleep. A person with PTSD will avoid any reminders of the trauma but re-experiencing the event in dreams, nightmares, or painful memories are common. Some people will turn to drugs or alcohol to escape the pain of PTSD. While others may become suicidal or self-defeating.

For the record, this is the first thing on the list of diagnostic criteria:

Must have been exposed to a traumatic event or experience involving intense fear, horror, or helplessness. The event or experience must involve a threat of death, serious injury, or physical integrity. The event or experience may be to yourself or to others around you.

 

[Chumbason]

If Johns lies he has far too much to lose, while she can say whatever she wants and nothing to lose... I mean we don't even get to see her face or know her name. She can throw as much mud as she wants and can never be touched, but the johns camp will be slaughtered should they be caught in a lie or to be playing with the truth.

I also think it is a bit much to suggest that if a girl was effectively being raped(as is being suggested), that no other men would act on her behalf... either then or after the fact.

Just because she is now having 'buyers regret' or not dealing with it all that well, or is ashamed of what she once played a part in, DOES not make it someone's else's fault.

 

[schmix]

If Johns lies he has far too much to lose, while she can say whatever she wants and nothing to lose... I mean we don't even get to see her face or know her name. She can throw as much mud as she wants and can never be touched, but the johns camp will be slaughtered should they be caught in a lie or to be playing with the truth.

If he committed sexual assualt and tells the truth, he's in jail. If he committed it and lies about it, he might be in the clear. As far as I can see, if he did something illegal then he has every reason to lie about it.

 

[schmix]

Well isn't your logic great, if she was traumatised then it must be because she was sexually assaulted, no other reason is possible.

How else do you think she was traumatised? Remembering that it was said her distress was specifically in relation to this event.

 

[Chumbason]

If Johns lies he has far too much to lose, while she can say whatever she wants and nothing to lose... I mean we don't even get to see her face or know her name. She can throw as much mud as she wants and can never be touched, but the johns camp will be slaughtered should they be caught in a lie or to be playing with the truth.

If he committed sexual assualt and tells the truth, he's in jail. If he committed it and lies about it, he might be in the clear. As far as I can see, if he did something illegal then he has every reason to lie about it.

Hasn't he already been cleard? I'm sure he has... But because she now has issues with what she did in her youth, he should be punished all of a sudden, I think not.

 

[Je$ter]

None of the Bulldogs have come out and said what REALLY happened in Coffs Harbour.
There's numerous other incidents that have never been made public that a lot of ex-players know about.

Players stick together. They protect eachother. That's why Johns hasn't named anyone else. he's protecting them, they won't contradict him.

My understanding is that she willingly engaged in group sex and never said no when more invited themselves in? If true it's disgusting behaviour by the players and shows a complete lack of morals, but if you're not going to say no when you feel uncomfortable and you don't want to be traumatized then maybe consenting to a threesome with some NRL players isn't the smartest of ideas to begin with.

Go back and read some earlier stuff from me. There are documented cases, lots of them, when being sexually assaulted or otherwise traumatised people lose the ability to speak, move, etc. It's called shock. That would support the diagnosis of trauma too.

She was a willing participant in all events that occurred and even encouraged the guys in the room saying come on, who's next. Yet because she was traumatised by the incident the players should be punished?

If she was a willing participant in all events and encouraged guys in the room (Johns's claim) then she wouldn't be traumatised would she? Great logic.

So you are saying Matt Johns is straight up lying about her participation in the events? Please.

PTSD definition is so broad it could cover anything. Who is to say this girl wasn't already depressed or anxious?

 

[schmix]

Hasn't he already been cleard? I'm sure he has... But because she now has issues with what she did in her youth, he should be punished all of a sudden, I think not.

Yes he's been cleared, but do you think that if he came out and admitted something then the police would just ignore it? He's not exactly free to say whatever he wants just because the investigation is closed.

 

[mjc]

Could this "stress disorder" be something that manifests itself as time passes and she feels a growing sense of shame, regret, questions herself over what happened, questions how it sits with her morals and remembers the incident in a bad light that is self perpetuating, getting worse and worse?

I think so.

No. But nice try to make up a definition that suits your cause.

So you're saying what I suggested is not at all feasible?

I find that very hard to believe...

 

[schmix]

PTSD definition is so broad it could cover anything. Who is to say this girl wasn't already depressed or anxious?

I imagine the psychologist who diagnosed her is properly qualified to judge that.

So you're saying what I suggested is not at all feasible?

I find that very hard to believe...

It is a feasible situation in general, but it's not what PTSD is.

 

[Je$ter]

If Johns lies he has far too much to lose, while she can say whatever she wants and nothing to lose... I mean we don't even get to see her face or know her name. She can throw as much mud as she wants and can never be touched, but the johns camp will be slaughtered should they be caught in a lie or to be playing with the truth.

If he committed sexual assualt and tells the truth, he's in jail. If he committed it and lies about it, he might be in the clear. As far as I can see, if he did something illegal then he has every reason to lie about it.

Because this girl wouldn't have any reason to lie either. Money, revenge?

Matt Johns stands to lose a lot more by lying that her.

Hasn't he already been cleard? I'm sure he has... But because she now has issues with what she did in her youth, he should be punished all of a sudden, I think not.

Yes he's been cleared, but do you think that if he came out and admitted something then the police would just ignore it? He's not exactly free to say whatever he wants just because the investigation is closed.

Because it is so easy to have 12 guys all tell exactly the same story without any holes in it. I'm sure they just sat there and made the story up over breakfast no worries.

 

[Professor47]

Just want to say:

Coxy - you were not in the room when it happened, her word is as good as matty johns and vise versa. The stories contradict themselves and you may have to read between the lines and frankly most of the things you say disregard matty's view on things which is harsh imo. Next don't look down on 18 year old's views either, some are FAR more mature then you think. For the record I'm 22. MOST of your posts regarding this topic imply that you are RIGHT and other people's opinions and views are wrong or ludicrous. Fair go mate, honestly.

On the incident intself, it is a really sickening situation and without a doubt it has caused all sorts of stress and trauma for the lady involved, there is absolutely no defense or backing away from that. I do however have to say, cards on the table, I DO THINK, I stress the word THINK, that at the TIME of the incident she was certainly, trying to find the right words but, she was certainly not repulsed or physically forced to participate in the alleged activities. From ALL the media exposures we have so far, that is what I THINK. By no means is she to blame, or is it her fault or any of that rubbish, but it seems that is what happened. Moral issues and how sickening the situation is, well, everyone has already said enough about that - by no means is what happened morally right adn so forth - but it would be naive to say there are NOT people out there who engage in such activities - fact. SOME people live their lives in such manner, there is no doubt about that either. The lady involved realised such issues as she got older and indeed went through incredible pain and probably will until she finds full closure which sadly she may never.

 

[Chumbason]

Hasn't he already been cleard? I'm sure he has... But because she now has issues with what she did in her youth, he should be punished all of a sudden, I think not.

Yes he's been cleared, but do you think that if he came out and admitted something then the police would just ignore it? He's not exactly free to say whatever he wants just because the investigation is closed.

The problem here, is that you seem to believe that there is every chance he is guilty of lieing and that's your focus, while I tend to believe that there's every chance she is, and I guess that's my focus.

Due to the fact that this is being represented as a rape style story, that she's a woman and that her story has been told first... she is being excepted and held up as the only one who knows the truth and any suggestion that she isn't has to be a lie, BUT she has painted herself as the victim, and as you may imagine, should she paint herself as "easy" and someone who slept with half a footy side while the other half watched, then the story, her image and whatever her goals for this... go no where.

 

[schmix]

Hasn't he already been cleard? I'm sure he has... But because she now has issues with what she did in her youth, he should be punished all of a sudden, I think not.

Yes he's been cleared, but do you think that if he came out and admitted something then the police would just ignore it? He's not exactly free to say whatever he wants just because the investigation is closed.

The problem here, is that you seem to believe that there is every chance he is guilty of lieing and that's your focus, while I tend to believe that there's every chance she is, and I guess that's my focus.

I agree that we have different points of view on this. I guess I saw your original post as "why, in any situation, would he lie" and my reply as "IF he did something wrong then he has every reason to lie".

If it is exactly how he said it was, then obviously he has no reason to lie.

They both have motivations to lie, but personally I think that avoiding jail is just as, if not more compelling than money or revenge.

 

[mjc]

I don't think anyone is lying.

He had group sex with a willing participant.

She has since wigged out over it in no uncertain terms and has massive regret issues - she may have been into it at the time but that sentiment has since changed and clouded her perception.

I just watched the Johns interview. It didn't seem like he was lying to me.

 

[rnabokov]

To some of the posters in this thread:

As the Four Corners reporter Sarah Ferguson pointed out: "A woman involved in degrading group sex can still be traumatised whether she consents or not." Clare told the program she felt powerless to stop what was being done to her by a "long line" of players. "I thought I was worthless and I thought I was nothing. And I think I was in shock. I didn't scream and they used a lot of … mental power over me and, and belittled me and made me feel really small like I was just a little old woman."

Source: SMH: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/morality- ... tml?page=2

It is one thing to look at these sorts of events in legalastic terms of consent in the context of the (masculine derived construction) of the Law, but what about the moral and ethical context?

Johns (and others) knew exactly what they were doing. Johns was 30 and married. No-one gave a toss about the consequences of their actions on the hearts and minds of anyone.

As far as I am concerned, there is practically zero focus placed on developing male emotional IQ in the social construction of gender, as is clearly evident in episodes such as this.

The opposite side of this tarnished coin is the disgusting “Beauty Myth†perpetrated on girls and women. I know it well. My daughter has been ravaged by an Eating Disorder since her early teens. She was bullied mercilessly at school for years.

Of course, it's all her fault - she consented to going to school.