I hate the media!

[gUt]

I realise Hammo posted a couple of pages ago on this, but I think he really hit the nail on the head for me in regards to what has annoyed me the most throughout this whole debarcle. I find it offensive that the media is inferring that I, as a woman, need someone to take responsibility for me and that I'm also incapable of making a decision in regards to my body. They've basically said that the men in that room should have been responsible for her. Seriously? Even if she consented to it, which seems to be the case? And the fact that Tracey Grimshaw asked Johns if he would have still gone ahead with it if he'd known she was 19 to which he said no. As Hammo said, is a 19 year old not a woman capable of making her own decisions?

I understand that there are serious repercussions these days for any footballer who does anything 'wrong' (whatever that may even mean now). But are we seriously getting to a point where a guy in the spotlight can't have sex with anyone other than a serious girlfriend for fear of what might be printed the next day?

If a woman goes into a toilet with a bloke, famous or not, I'm not sure if she should be the authority on what is degrading. I'm also not sure where along the line men automatically had to assume responsibility for a woman in a sexual encounter. If you're old enough to be out on the pull and dragging guys into a toilet or taking a couple of them back to your room, you're old enough to make your own decisions and take responsibility for your actions. Woman are just as capable of being the instigator in these situations, so why all the blame on the guy? Obviously my view changes on this depending on the circumstances ie. if anything occurs without the girls consent, but I'm not specifically talking about the incidents we've heard of recently, I'm just using some of the circumstances as an example. It just seems that the media has decided that the guy needs to be responsible, the woman is a victim should anything go wrong (even though no one may be to blame) and that a young woman can't make an informed decision for herself. Ridiculous.

That makes a lot of sense Emma. Which man wrote that for you?

 

[mjc]

Just on the Daily Telegraph constantly bombing League and sensationalising everything and the unfair reporting in general.... why?! WHY!

News Limited has a strong interest in the game, owning teams like the Broncos and Storm and broadcasting the games on Foxtel.

Why do they want to attack and do everything possible to bad mouth the game?

 

[Nashy]

What about the males that have the intentions to suduce the players? how bout we just put them in a bubble!!!!
Barring the players from making any contact with the women will once again push the female fans away from the game, not all of them but alot of female fans like to go and congratulate the players after a great game....

WTH?

 

[rnabokov]

I realise Hammo posted a couple of pages ago on this, but I think he really hit the nail on the head for me in regards to what has annoyed me the most throughout this whole debarcle. I find it offensive that the media is inferring that I, as a woman, need someone to take responsibility for me and that I'm also incapable of making a decision in regards to my body. They've basically said that the men in that room should have been responsible for her. Seriously? Even if she consented to it, which seems to be the case? And the fact that Tracey Grimshaw asked Johns if he would have still gone ahead with it if he'd known she was 19 to which he said no. As Hammo said, is a 19 year old not a woman capable of making her own decisions?

I understand that there are serious repercussions these days for any footballer who does anything 'wrong' (whatever that may even mean now). But are we seriously getting to a point where a guy in the spotlight can't have sex with anyone other than a serious girlfriend for fear of what might be printed the next day?

If a woman goes into a toilet with a bloke, famous or not, I'm not sure if she should be the authority on what is degrading. I'm also not sure where along the line men automatically had to assume responsibility for a woman in a sexual encounter. If you're old enough to be out on the pull and dragging guys into a toilet or taking a couple of them back to your room, you're old enough to make your own decisions and take responsibility for your actions. Woman are just as capable of being the instigator in these situations, so why all the blame on the guy? Obviously my view changes on this depending on the circumstances ie. if anything occurs without the girls consent, but I'm not specifically talking about the incidents we've heard of recently, I'm just using some of the circumstances as an example. It just seems that the media has decided that the guy needs to be responsible, the woman is a victim should anything go wrong (even though no one may be to blame) and that a young woman can't make an informed decision for herself. Ridiculous.

Don't know about the media, but for mine, it's not that the man takes responsibility for the woman's choice, it's that he is responsible for his.

Another issue, applicable to your and Hammoz's posts, is one of informed consent.

I think it is unwise to assume that (e.g.), all 19 year old females have the same capacity to make an informed choice in any given situation, which is probably why it is wise that, in this context particularly, males consider carefully the situation, their choices and the consequences of their actions.

Incidentally, maybe part of a man's responsibility in Johns's situation - aside from not being there in the first place, would be, amongst other things, to ask the girl her age.

Seen any 15 year olds recently who look 19?

I have.

 

[tryhard]

Don't believe the owner of the Hotel. Just my opinion but I am sure the police would have checked the stories at the time about how many in the room, what went on, and the size of the windows whether or not anyone could get in. The guy has to protect his own business I am assuming.

I read some days ago of the parents not knowing. Couldn't understand if the kid was still in ChCh how they wouldn't have known this was their daughter. Strange. Maybe they chose to come out now saying they didn't know for reasons we are not aware of. Parental denial maybe.

On another note. How and where are decent young sportspeople going to meet girls and get girlfriends and partners in life? If,as Bruno said they basically now have to live in a goldfish bowl.(especially in one team cities)
Many sportspeople have married girls met in clubs and bars and footy functions. Some of these girls were not very high moralled I am lead to believe and yet they have happy lasting marriages.

Whatever the outcome here , in my opinion this has taken girls reporting sexual assault and rape even further back just as women and men were making ground towards speaking out.

No excuses for Johns a married man and father. Disgraceful human being on the sex front. I don't care if she did consent or he didn't know her age(he says). He was with her in the day hours so surely knew she was not a mature aged young woman, but again at night asked her to his room. His motive was clear. Disgrace and pleased his face is off the air.

 

[Blondie]

What about the males that have the intentions to suduce the players? how bout we just put them in a bubble!!!!
Barring the players from making any contact with the women will once again push the female fans away from the game, not all of them but alot of female fans like to go and congratulate the players after a great game....

WTH?

i was commenting on HUGE' comment.
Simple answer is....separate them from the predators by banning all contact between sportsmen and women.
It's clear we cannot identify these predators so we need to ban all interaction until they give up the sporting career they've chosen. I think that must be the answer because no other answer will please/meet this society's dumb standards.

Zero contact between players and any women...how can we know which one is the predator..better safe than sorry I say...

T.I.Cheek.Huge.

 

[Huge]

Your not serious are you Blondie...we've just got to protect the players...ban the women from any League functions, especially the ones where our boys might imbibe. Zero tolerance for the sexual predators I say. Surely it's the only way.We must stop women from seducing, offering services and flaunting and flirting with the players...at least until they retire from the game. It's the only safe thing to do until we know how identify these sexual predators.

Stop the contact and remove the problem....simple.

T.I.Cheek.

 

[broncosil]

[I think it is unwise to assume that (e.g.), all 19 year old females have the same capacity to make an informed choice in any given situation, which is probably why it is wise that, in this context particularly, males consider carefully the situation, their choices and the consequences of their actions.

Incidentally, maybe part of a man's responsibility in Johns's situation - aside from not being there in the first place, would be, amongst other things, to ask the girl her age.

Seen any 15 year olds recently who look 19?

I have.[/quote]

If someone is 19 (male or female) they are old enough to vote, drive, seek employment, drink, pay tax, enter the political arena, seek education etc. It should not be up to a man to decide whether she has the capacity to make a decision about sex. Being a woman it is offensive to think that I don't have the capacity to make a decision about sex. I left home at that age to live with my boyfriend, (now my husband). I made some very huge choices, but I stand by them, because I made them. If there is anything to teach our children it is accountability. To live with the consequences of your choices.

It isn't Johns' responsibility to ask her age, and even if he did, what would stop her from telling the truth?

The same goes for 15 year olds who look like 19 year olds. They lie too. Would the next step be in asking for i.d.?

 

[rnabokov]

[I think it is unwise to assume that (e.g.), all 19 year old females have the same capacity to make an informed choice in any given situation, which is probably why it is wise that, in this context particularly, males consider carefully the situation, their choices and the consequences of their actions.

Incidentally, maybe part of a man's responsibility in Johns's situation - aside from not being there in the first place, would be, amongst other things, to ask the girl her age.

Seen any 15 year olds recently who look 19?

I have.

If someone is 19 (male or female) they are old enough to vote, drive, seek employment, drink, pay tax, enter the political arena, seek education etc. It should not be up to a man to decide whether she has the capacity to make a decision about sex. Being a woman it is offensive to think that I don't have the capacity to make a decision about sex. I left home at that age to live with my boyfriend, (now my husband). I made some very huge choices, but I stand by them, because I made them. If there is anything to teach our children it is accountability. To live with the consequences of your choices.

It isn't Johns' responsibility to ask her age, and even if he did, what would stop her from telling the truth?

The same goes for 15 year olds who look like 19 year olds. They lie too. Would the next step be in asking for i.d.?[/quote]



YEP. Maybe that's why they ask for ID at clubs and pubs etc? Or are you arguing underage drinking is OK? And we know there is absolutely NO problem out there with teenage drinking don't we.

And ... ummm - there a lot of people out there of any age with any number of “conditions†which legally, ethically and/or morally compromise their capacity to make an informed consent. Like someone with a mental illness - including Eating Disorders say as 1 example.

And once again, you misinterpret me. I am NOT saying the man in this scenario does anything other than focus on HIS responsibility to make the right decision.

How YOU want to define “right†is ... Dare I say it - YOUR choice.

It would be an interesting court case if say, Clare was only 15 And lied. Even more interesting if she was your daughter.

 

[ddd]

[I think it is unwise to assume that (e.g.), all 19 year old females have the same capacity to make an informed choice in any given situation, which is probably why it is wise that, in this context particularly, males consider carefully the situation, their choices and the consequences of their actions.

Incidentally, maybe part of a man's responsibility in Johns's situation - aside from not being there in the first place, would be, amongst other things, to ask the girl her age.

Seen any 15 year olds recently who look 19?

I have.

If someone is 19 (male or female) they are old enough to vote, drive, seek employment, drink, pay tax, enter the political arena, seek education etc. It should not be up to a man to decide whether she has the capacity to make a decision about sex. Being a woman it is offensive to think that I don't have the capacity to make a decision about sex. I left home at that age to live with my boyfriend, (now my husband). I made some very huge choices, but I stand by them, because I made them. If there is anything to teach our children it is accountability. To live with the consequences of your choices.

It isn't Johns' responsibility to ask her age, and even if he did, what would stop her from telling the truth?

The same goes for 15 year olds who look like 19 year olds. They lie too. Would the next step be in asking for i.d.?

YEP. Maybe that's why they ask for ID at clubs and pubs etc? Or are you arguing underage drinking is OK? And we know there is absolutely NO problem out there with teenage drinking don't we.

And ... ummm - there a lot of people out there of any age with any number of “conditions†which legally, ethically and/or morally compromise their capacity to make an informed consent. Like someone with a mental illness - including Eating Disorders say as 1 example.

And once again, you misinterpret me. I am NOT saying the man in this scenario does anything other than focus on HIS responsibility to make the right decision.

How YOU want to define “right†is ... Dare I say it - YOUR choice.

It would be an interesting court case if say, Clare was only 15 And lied. Even more interesting if she was your daughter.[/quote]



So, a Legal Question has been asked - my university education comes to the fore!

In the case that it went to court with clare being only 15, there are a couple of variables to be considered. If clare had a fake ID and matty checked that ID, when charged with the offense of having sex with a person under the age of 16, he would be able to invoke the defense of mistake of fact. This, if made out, which is likely, matt would only be liable for the situation he believed was the case (that she was of legal age and had capacity to consent).
As such, he would have no case to answer.

The situation is different if she states her age. In that case it depends on what she says, how she looks (whether she looks 19 - yes this is subjective) and whether it was reasonable to take her at her word (a question for a jury).

Of course these issues don't mean a thing if she is your daughter, particularly if you have a raised a 15 year old who has it off with the better part of a footy team.

Any other lawyers out there - don't kill me if I'm wrong - this is what my Crim B notes had in them and the first thing that came to mind!

 

[rnabokov]

A fair assessment ddd - but what of “informed consent†?

 

[broncosil]

When I was referring to the point of asking for I.d., it was more for the man to ask the woman before they engage in sex. Not clubs and pubs asking for i.d.

As for it being my daughter, then rest assured, the bigger question would be how she got herself into that situation in the first place. If it was because she went out, acted and looked older than she was and pursued men, particuarly with a predatory behaviour, then my disappointment would lie more with her than the men involved. If she was raped and forced/coerced, then it would be completely different.

However, the argument of whether it would be my daughter or not is a little tiresome, at the end of the day they have to make choices too, and that is what this whole story is about. Making choices and living with the consequences.

As for mental capacity to make informed consent, that isn't the situation here either. "Clare" was of sound mind, sober (she was working at the time wasn't she?) and not under any apparent influence of anything. She was also of age. An adult is over the age of 18, whether it be 19, 25, or 60. There is no fuzzy line, and the moment the law starts blurring the lines is when it starts to get stupid.

Again, what isn't anyone accountable for their own actions anymore?

 

[OXY-351]

Charmyne Palavi speaks out

IF YOU believed Four Corners, I'm supposed to be the NRL's biggest groupie, a wannabe WAG who dresses up, heads out to clubs and hunts down players to have sex with.

I don't deny I've had liaisons with many, many footballers, but what annoys me about these tags and the way I was portrayed on that show is the idea I prey on them like some of the starstruck women I've seen out there.

I'm no angel, but I've seen this game play out from both sides: First as the partner of a pro footballer for nine years, then as a single woman who can have sex whenever, with whomever, I choose.

I am old enough and wise enough to know these encounters are nothing more than what they were at the time - mostly consensual, one-on-one sex, on my terms.

People might not like it, but (since Four Corners) I've had heaps of people, women especially, say 'good on you, Charmyne, you said it how it is'.

I did feel sorry for "Clare" when she started crying, but the stories that have come out since have been confusing.

As a woman, I think it's disgusting the way Matthew Johns has been put through the wringer in all this but her name has been kept out of it.

The whole scandal has made an example of Matthew, but I don't think less of him because of it.

Group sex happens. Now the other players involved should speak up too. To say what really happened in that hotel.

The reality is there are women out there who do hunt footballers down, are prepared to have sex with them in nightclub toilets.

Just as there are players who trawl Facebook and MySpace, who are more than willing to have sex with them.

Anyone who thinks the culture is going to change just because the story's out there however are kidding themselves.

I was messaging a young player, a Facebook friend, last week and asked what he was doing.

He replied: "Learning how to respect women. LOL (laugh out loud)."

I wrote back: "Yeah, and I'm still a virgin."

In a way, I feel sorry for the guys in this situation, but they should also be strong enough to say no.

But even after the whole story came out about me getting together with (Cowboys player) Johnathan Thurston, I would have understood if they had kept away from me.

I would if I was them (players). But they kept contacting me. It's like a drug to them. They want to go where their teammates have been before them.

No normal person would think they're going to end up with a normal relationship with any player they meet on Facebook or in a club.

Most of the NRL boys get online during breaks in their training, chatting up girls to meet up with after they've finished.

But just as the boys like being contacted by girls through Facebook, the girls use the information the players put on their pages to track them down.

They know where they go out after games, where they stay, when they are in town, with many booking themselves into the same hotels as the teams.

I've got one girlfriend in Brisbane who sits down at the beginning of the year with the NRL draw and works out where she's going to follow them (North Queensland Cowboys) for the year.

I can see how it would be tempting and flattering to the players, especially the young players, because they aren't used to that type of female adoration.

But when it comes to sexual assault all men know what's right and what's wrong and if a girl is obviously drunk and trying to push them off, then it's assault.

I myself have been in this very same situation with a current NRL player and I can see how you get yourself into a situation that spirals out of control.

In my instance I was passing in and out of consciousness and didn't have the strength to push him off me. I told only my closest friends at the time as I knew how it would look.

Now, after the last year and the things I have been through, I am strong enough to speak about it.

Unfortunately, we live in a society where women will always be shut down for the very characteristics men are revered for - being strong, opinionated, fearless and open about their sexuality.

People seem to be ignoring the bigger issue here while they look for someone to blame. That is - the disrespect for women inherent in the clubs.

The key to fixing that problem is education. I thought my contribution was a valuable insight into a world so few know exist. Regardless of the poor lifestyle choices I have made in the past I hope to continue speaking up, so those women too afraid to speak out gain some self respect and learn they deserve better.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25 ... 21,00.html

 

[Nashy]

The key to fixing it is getting rid of slappers like her.

 

[mrslong]

The key to fixing it is getting rid of slappers like her.

+100,001 what a freakin skank. And what a bloody terrible article for her to write. She wants to pork these players and now she's stabbing them in the backs. [icon_non

 

[Nashy]

Beats players stabbing her in the back(side) I guess...

 

[OXY-351]

I'd hit it

 

[gUt]

That 'article' started well but quickly decended into gossip and cliche.