[Round 20, 2021] Broncos vs Cowboys

[Galah]

Just before half time it happened. On the right hand side, he limped to the ruck and kept playing.

He has done this before and was out for a long time. 2019 for Queensland he went off and didn't come back and was out for a long time with the same injury.

He looked lively when he came on, his little darts out from dummy half had stopped the panthers from rushing up, it gave the halves a little extra time. He Tried too much with that little kick but I was loving it.

was it a high ankle sprain last time?

 

[Kimlo]

**** sake... finally a winnable game coming up against a team with just as many injury issues as us and we lose both hookers in one game.

We hadn't played two hookers all year, then in a nothing game against a top 2 team we lose both hookers in one hit... and whilst in a bubble so we cant even bring in super signing Danny Levi (or is he in the bubble??)

Super sub Levi is in our top 30 for this year so he's surely in the bubble.

 

[BroncsFan]

Super sub Levi is in our top 30 for this year so he's surely in the bubble.

Hopefully he is just so we have a hooker to play... just checked the last Norths game and Levi wasnt in it. Would need confirmation from @Wolfie or @1910 about status and whether he may be injured?

Levi isn't great, but he should be enough against the cows, and I dont think Kobe can handle 80 on his own, so I would prefer a hooker instead of a makeshift option like Croft.

 

[Wolfie]

Hopefully he is just so we have a hooker to play... just checked the last Norths game and Levi wasnt in it. Would need confirmation from @Wolfie or @1910 about status and whether he may be injured?

Levi isn't great, but he should be enough against the cows, and I dont think Kobe can handle 80 on his own, so I would prefer a hooker instead of a makeshift option like Croft.

Not sure mate. Lost track a bit with ISC in recent weeks.

 

[HarryAllan7]

Jack Wighton was a representative player and Dally M and Clive Churchill medal winner @ 6 and aside from the fact that he may have literally a negative IQ, he was also an outside back before transitioning.

I think lots of people here equate Isaako @ 6 to Hoffman @ 6 back in the day and automatically shoot it down, but it's not as ridiculous as you'd think. Another Broncos outside back who gets alot of hate around here used to be an absolutely exceptional 5/8 in his junior career - Jordan Kahu... I'm sure not many would have liked to see him in the halves either.

5/8 doesn't need to be a specialist halfback style position... as long as the team is built correctly.
A ball playing 9, game manging 7 and playmaking 13 can take care of the kicking / controlling/ 'thinking' aspect and leave the 6 as a ball-running second receiver. Having a strong system where players are well-drilled, know their roles and stick to their tasks in a regimented, congruous way is also very important. Then the 6 doesn't have to be doing anything complicated, just getting early ball and taking on the line.

I think both Isaako and Staggs could transition into this style of pivot, but whether they can do it here at the Broncos where we lack the necessary talent in key positions and well-drilled team structure and systems to support the transition is the big question mark. I think Staggs is a better chance than Isaako due to his more robust running style and I'd like to see him given the opportunity.

 

[Huge]

Jack Wighton was a representative player and Dally M and Clive Churchill medal winner @ 6 and aside from the fact that he may have literally a negative IQ, he was also an outside back before transitioning.

I think lots of people here equate Isaako @ 6 to Hoffman @ 6 back in the day and automatically shoot it down, but it's not as ridiculous as you'd think. Another Broncos outside back who gets alot of hate around here used to be an absolutely exceptional 5/8 in his junior career - Jordan Kahu... I'm sure not many would have liked to see him in the halves either.

5/8 doesn't need to be a specialist halfback style position... as long as the team is built correctly.
A ball playing 9, game manging 7 and playmaking 13 can take care of the kicking / controlling/ 'thinking' aspect and leave the 6 as a ball-running second receiver. Having a strong system where players are well-drilled, know their roles and stick to their tasks in a regimented, congruous way is also very important. Then the 6 doesn't have to be doing anything complicated, just getting early ball and taking on the line.

I think both Isaako and Staggs could transition into this style of pivot, but whether they can do it here at the Broncos where we lack the necessary talent in key positions and well-drilled team structure and systems to support the transition is the big question mark. I think Staggs is a better chance than Isaako due to his more robust running style and I'd like to see him given the opportunity.

Wow , how can you be so misguided you crazy fool?

Kidding of couse!!
That's the thing, you can see what kind of 5/8th I was describing and suggesting and full bloody credit to you too. The only thing I'd dispute is your belief that of the two you think Staggs is the more suitable. I cannot see that because a 5/8 needs a kicking game and Staggs has never shown that. He has massive skills no doubt but kicking has never been demonstrated. Isaako has those skills and he has the tackle busting of Staggs too.

It isn't just me who thinks he has the vital kicking game, premiership winning coach Flanagan gave him quite the wrap.

Other than the suitability thing I do agree with you. I actually believe Croft would be a reliable sidekick but the hooker is where we'd need a massive boost. Anyway, all hypothetical but I am pleased you can see past the hysteria and consider something on it's merit.

 

[Cult]

Yeah except Wighton is a competitor who was good at his previous position and didn't break every time something went wrong. Also with a lack of a ball playing fullback and a hooker who sucks, why do we want a 6 that can't set anything up himself? What's the benefit? Having Isaako get his hands on the ball more? What would that actually achieve other than more chances for him to mess up. He's not a good kicker either, he's a big kicker. He hasn't been a good runner for a while either and needs to stop skipping before hitting the line.

You know who is proving that we need to get his hands on the ball more? Staggs.

 

[1910]

Hopefully he is just so we have a hooker to play... just checked the last Norths game and Levi wasnt in it. Would need confirmation from @Wolfie or @1910 about status and whether he may be injured?

Levi isn't great, but he should be enough against the cows, and I dont think Kobe can handle 80 on his own, so I would prefer a hooker instead of a makeshift option like Croft.

Levi is in level four restrictions so you would think he would be the logical and really only choice.

 

[1910]

He looked lively when he came on, his little darts out from dummy half had stopped the panthers from rushing up, it gave the halves a little extra time. He Tried too much with that little kick but I was loving it.

was it a high ankle sprain last time?

Yep and he was out for six weeks, came back and then Mogg only used him on the bench so his whole second half of the season was a waste.

I love his improvement, I think it's come about as much through understanding the role and his body has changed so he can do the role.

 

[Sproj]

Eh, Levi / anyone will be better than Turpin unless Turpin is playing after a week off.

 

[theshed]

Jack Wighton was a representative player and Dally M and Clive Churchill medal winner @ 6 and aside from the fact that he may have literally a negative IQ, he was also an outside back before transitioning.

I think lots of people here equate Isaako @ 6 to Hoffman @ 6 back in the day and automatically shoot it down, but it's not as ridiculous as you'd think. Another Broncos outside back who gets alot of hate around here used to be an absolutely exceptional 5/8 in his junior career - Jordan Kahu... I'm sure not many would have liked to see him in the halves either.

5/8 doesn't need to be a specialist halfback style position... as long as the team is built correctly.
A ball playing 9, game manging 7 and playmaking 13 can take care of the kicking / controlling/ 'thinking' aspect and leave the 6 as a ball-running second receiver. Having a strong system where players are well-drilled, know their roles and stick to their tasks in a regimented, congruous way is also very important. Then the 6 doesn't have to be doing anything complicated, just getting early ball and taking on the line.

I think both Isaako and Staggs could transition into this style of pivot, but whether they can do it here at the Broncos where we lack the necessary talent in key positions and well-drilled team structure and systems to support the transition is the big question mark. I think Staggs is a better chance than Isaako due to his more robust running style and I'd like to see him given the opportunity.

I think that is half of why Huge is copping so much criticism, and why people aren’t sold on Staggs either.

We don’t have a ball playing lock, or a creative 9 - or fullback for that matter. The one thing we have is an organising half. We don’t have the spine to accomodate the king of the brain snap.

Isaako has demonstrated that his passing ability isnvery average, and his general play kicking and decision making has been abysmal. Even Niu puts in smarter in-play kicks than Jermayne, who has a massive boot no doubt, but zero accuracy. Which by the way, is the same disclaimer that Flanagan attached to his compliment which Huge conveniently omitted.

I think it’s a false comparison with Kahu too. Many people were keen to see Kahu have a go at 5/8, in fact I think that was one of the biggest what if‘s of that era - how would Kahu have gone in the spine had he not been so impacted by serious injury.

We’re also overlooking that Wighton winning was universally laughed at for the joke that it was. We also saw how bad a five eight Wighton is during his latest origin game or his Raidiers form in general.

 

[Kooly87]

I'm definitely of the opinion, be it Isaako or damn near anyone else, if you are going to suggest a positional change, that player learns by playing it in ISC.
Someone of Locky's skill would be an exception but as we have seen, that is oh so rare.

Locky was a 5/8 who learned to play Fullback - going to 5/8 was a return to the role he'd played for most of his life.

Also, as you correctly pointed out, being an Immortal standard player definitely helped him too.

Even @Huge would have to concede Isaako is probably not quite at Immortal standard just yet.

 

[Cult]

You guys will also find all of the players who are fast, strong and fit enough dominate in junior comps/under 20's in the halves even if they're not creative enough to perform there in the NRL. If you have a player that's dominant you want them with their hands on the ball in the middle of the field. Doesn't mean they're actually good halves

 

[HarryAllan7]

I think that is half of why Huge is copping so much criticism, and why people aren’t sold on Staggs either.

We don’t have a ball playing lock, or a creative 9 - or fullback for that matter. The one thing we have is an organising half. We don’t have the spine to accomodate the king of the brain snap.

Isaako has demonstrated that his passing ability isnvery average, and his general play kicking and decision making has been abysmal. Even Niu puts in smarter in-play kicks than Jermayne, who has a massive boot no doubt, but zero accuracy. Which by the way, is the same disclaimer that Flanagan attached to his compliment which Huge conveniently omitted.

I think it’s a false comparison with Kahu too. Many people were keen to see Kahu have a go at 5/8, in fact I think that was one of the biggest what if‘s of that era - how would Kahu have gone in the spine had he not been so impacted my serious injury.

My point being that Kahu showed very little in his first grade career as an outside back to suggest he would be an elite 6, and yet he had all the skills to be exactly that early in his career. Injury aside, he had the tangible qualities to succeed in the position and yet we never saw any of it when he was in first grade because he was playing centre.

Just because a player is playing a certain position not showcasing skills needed for a different position doesn't mean they don't exist. Absolutely NOBODY assumed that Jerome Hughes had the skills to be a top-notch halfback when he was playing at 1 for the Storm, and yet here we are.

I think its reductive to judge the potential of Staggs (and to a lesser extent Isaako) as a 5/8 by judging their play in the outside backs. Rugby League is a simple game, can these guys run, take on the line, pass to an acceptable level and produce some sort of kicking game? Yes, I think both players have the talent to handle that easily.

Like you said, we need the players and systems around them to facilitate that transition and cover any shortcomings as a traditional half. We don't have that right now and so putting either at pivot is going to be a risk, and even if Staggs kills it at 6 and has great individual stats, it still might not be the best for the overall team to have him there.

If we want him at 6 we damn well better have a clear plan for the rest of the spine. Hopefully we see it soon.

 

[Huge]

I think that is half of why Huge is copping so much criticism, and why people aren’t sold on Staggs either.

We don’t have a ball playing lock, or a creative 9 - or fullback for that matter. The one thing we have is an organising half. We don’t have the spine to accomodate the king of the brain snap.

Isaako has demonstrated that his passing ability isnvery average, and his general play kicking and decision making has been abysmal. Even Niu puts in smarter in-play kicks than Jermayne, who has a massive boot no doubt, but zero accuracy. Which by the way, is the same disclaimer that Flanagan attached to his compliment which Huge conveniently omitted.

I think it’s a false comparison with Kahu too. Many people were keen to see Kahu have a go at 5/8, in fact I think that was one of the biggest what if‘s of that era - how would Kahu have gone in the spine had he not been so impacted by serious injury.

We’re also overlooking that Wighton winning was universally laughed at for the joke that it was. We also saw how bad a five eight Wighton is during his latest origin game or his Raidiers form in general.

I didn't conveniently leave anything out and it's untrue anyway. Isaako has accurately kicked off literally hundreds of times over the last two seasons. He does however on the odd occasion hit the ball too well or rather, too powerfully. Your statement is a gross error but not unexpected as you clumsily try to reinforce your claim. Isaako, according to Flanagan said he was one of the best kickers he'd ever seen. The kind of kicks he'd be making are not just kickoffs.

 

[theshed]

My point being that Kahu showed very little in his first grade career as an outside back to suggest he would be an elite 6, and yet he had all the skills to be exactly that early in his career. Injury aside, he had the tangible qualities to succeed in the position and yet we never saw any of it when he was in first grade because he was playing centre.

Just because a player is playing a certain position not showcasing skills needed for a different position doesn't mean they don't exist. Absolutely NOBODY assumed that Jerome Hughes had the skills to be a top-notch halfback when he was playing at 1 for the Storm, and yet here we are.

I think its reductive to judge the potential of Staggs (and to a lesser extent Isaako) as a 5/8 by judging their play in the outside backs. Rugby League is a simple game, can these guys run, take on the line, pass to an acceptable level and produce some sort of kicking game? Yes, I think both players have the talent to handle that easily.

Like you said, we need the players and systems around them to facilitate that transition and cover any shortcomings as a traditional half. We don't have that right now and so putting either at pivot is going to be a risk, and even if Staggs kills it at 6 and has great individual stats, it still might not be the best for the overall team to have him there.

If we want him at 6 we damn well better have a clear plan for the rest of the spine. Hopefully we see it soon.

I have to disagree to an extent again.

Isaako has played how many games at fullback now? He has shown his passing and kicking in play to be poor and to have terrible decision making qualities. Kahu had beautiful hands in his games at the back but it was his speed and physicality that let him down.

 

[Kooly87]

Jack Wighton was a representative player and Dally M and Clive Churchill medal winner @ 6 and aside from the fact that he may have literally a negative IQ, he was also an outside back before transitioning.

I think lots of people here equate Isaako @ 6 to Hoffman @ 6 back in the day and automatically shoot it down, but it's not as ridiculous as you'd think. Another Broncos outside back who gets alot of hate around here used to be an absolutely exceptional 5/8 in his junior career - Jordan Kahu... I'm sure not many would have liked to see him in the halves either.

5/8 doesn't need to be a specialist halfback style position... as long as the team is built correctly.
A ball playing 9, game manging 7 and playmaking 13 can take care of the kicking / controlling/ 'thinking' aspect and leave the 6 as a ball-running second receiver. Having a strong system where players are well-drilled, know their roles and stick to their tasks in a regimented, congruous way is also very important. Then the 6 doesn't have to be doing anything complicated, just getting early ball and taking on the line.

I think both Isaako and Staggs could transition into this style of pivot, but whether they can do it here at the Broncos where we lack the necessary talent in key positions and well-drilled team structure and systems to support the transition is the big question mark. I think Staggs is a better chance than Isaako due to his more robust running style and I'd like to see him given the opportunity.

Kahu at 5/8? Are you sure you're not confusing Jordan Kahu with his brother Jared? Jared was our fairly highly rated NYC 5/8 at one point but I'm not sure I remember Jordan playing in the Halves?

As for the Wighton example, this is why I said it ALMOST never works out, because there are a small number of examples where it's worked out succesfully and Wighton is one of those.

You did touch on a key difference here though, Wighton's job is made very simple because he has an outstanding spine around him who do a huge amount of steering the play around and controlling the side. Even if (and it's a huge IF based mostly on presumptions at this stage) Isaako proved he could be a competent running 5/8, it's still really unlikely to be an effective solution for the Broncos because aside from Reynolds next year the rest of our spine is very, very limited in playmaking ability relative to a spine like the Raiders had.

 

[theshed]

I didn't conveniently leave anything out and it's untrue anyway. Isaako has accurately kicked off literally hundreds of times over the last two seasons. He does however on the odd occasion hit the ball too well or rather, too powerfully. Your statement is a gross error but not unexpected as you clumsily try to reinforce your claim. Isaako, according to Flanagan said he was one of the best kickers he'd ever seen. The kind of kicks he'd be making are not just kickoffs.

Your conflating kick offs verses in game kicks. He has a huge boot and a nice goal kicking technique. No question.

His kicks in play this year have been an ugly grubber on the first that no one asked for and a bomb that went 10m backwards.