[Round 20, 2021] Broncos vs Cowboys

[Cult]

My point being that Kahu showed very little in his first grade career as an outside back to suggest he would be an elite 6, and yet he had all the skills to be exactly that early in his career. Injury aside, he had the tangible qualities to succeed in the position and yet we never saw any of it when he was in first grade because he was playing centre.

Just because a player is playing a certain position not showcasing skills needed for a different position doesn't mean they don't exist. Absolutely NOBODY assumed that Jerome Hughes had the skills to be a top-notch halfback when he was playing at 1 for the Storm, and yet here we are.

I think its reductive to judge the potential of Staggs (and to a lesser extent Isaako) as a 5/8 by judging their play in the outside backs. Rugby League is a simple game, can these guys run, take on the line, pass to an acceptable level and produce some sort of kicking game? Yes, I think both players have the talent to handle that easily.

Like you said, we need the players and systems around them to facilitate that transition and cover any shortcomings as a traditional half. We don't have that right now and so putting either at pivot is going to be a risk, and even if Staggs kills it at 6 and has great individual stats, it still might not be the best for the overall team to have him there.

If we want him at 6 we damn well better have a clear plan for the rest of the spine. Hopefully we see it soon.

Which is entirely why most people who are responding to you aren't just talking about his skills, but his mindset as well. Your entire argument is based on what could happen if everything goes right, but how often does everything go right for Isaako?

 

[HarryAllan7]

Kahu at 5/8? Are you sure you're not confusing Jordan Kahu with his brother Jared? Jared was our fairly highly rated NYC 5/8 at one point but I'm not sure I remember Jordan playing in the Halves?

As for the Wighton example, this is why I said it ALMOST never works out, because there are a small number of examples where it's worked out succesfully and Wighton is one of those.

You did touch on a key difference here though, Wighton's job is made very simple because he has an outstanding spine around him who do a huge amount of steering the play around and controlling the side. Even if (and it's a huge IF based mostly on presumptions at this stage) Isaako proved he could be a competent running 5/8, it's still really unlikely to be an effective solution for the Broncos because aside from Reynolds next year the rest of our spine is very, very limited in playmaking ability relative to a spine like the Raiders had.

Nah I meant Jordan.

He never played 6 at the top level, but lots of commentators and experts who saw him coming up have gone on record saying when he was playing 6 in the junior levels before (3? 4?) serious knee injuries that he was a mercurial talent and pretty spectacular there.

Did anyone here ever see him playing in the halves coming up?

 

[Cult]

I didn't conveniently leave anything out and it's untrue anyway. Isaako has accurately kicked off literally hundreds of times over the last two seasons. He does however on the odd occasion hit the ball too well or rather, too powerfully. Your statement is a gross error but not unexpected as you clumsily try to reinforce your claim. Isaako, according to Flanagan said he was one of the best kickers he'd ever seen. The kind of kicks he'd be making are not just kickoffs.

Fucking hell..

Too well? That will do me. Sorry for engaging, this is the most ridiculous take ever. You know how many players could kick it dead on the full if they wanted to but simply don't because it's fucking stupid? Big kicks are not good kicks, accuracy matters, Huge..

 

[HarryAllan7]

Which is entirely why most people who are responding to you aren't just talking about his skills, but his mindset as well. Your entire argument is based on what could happen if everything goes right, but how often does everything go right for Isaako?

It's definitely a concern - Let me be clear here, I'm not endorsing Isaako as a 5/8.

I'm merely pointing out that the assertion isn't as ridiculous as it maybe seems on the surface, that a manufactured ball-running pivot has been proven to be an effective option and that by the same token, Staggs has the talent to succeed in that role if we can put him in a position to do so.

The key here being that we need to be ready to build around him, we can't just throw Staggs (or anyone) at 6 and expect him to become a traditional 5/8 - we need to play to his strengths and cover his weaknesses and have a spine around him to remove the pressure and reliance.

 

[BroncsFan]

Levi is in level four restrictions so you would think he would be the logical and really only choice.

Thanks for the confirmation

 

[Sproj]

It's definitely a concern - Let me be clear here, I'm not endorsing Isaako as a 5/8.

I'm merely pointing out that the assertion isn't as ridiculous as it maybe seems on the surface, that a manufactured ball-running pivot has been proven to be an effective option and that by the same token, Staggs has the talent to succeed in that role if we can put him in a position to do so.

The key here being that we need to be ready to build around him, we can't just throw Staggs (or anyone) at 6 and expect him to become a traditional 5/8 - we need to play to his strengths and cover his weaknesses and have a spine around him to remove the pressure and reliance.

We know it isn't totally without merit but the points that do not change are these:

- Isaako is a wonderful athlete physically
- Isaako is an incredibly dumb / prone to brain snaps football player
- The Broncos as a team are pretty much the same as Isaako as a player
- Isaako has an amazingly long boot and is a really good goal kicker
- Isaako is not an accurate in-game kicker, even when he kicks off, they tend to either go 60m or 35m (at NRL level, this is a massive margin of error)
- Isaako has not shown an ability to pass or set up plays but he is good at finishing them off
- Staggs is a more powerful, seemingly stronger mentally, athlete who most likely offers far more than Isaako if we are going down this route
- Isaako's attributes really make him an ideal centre if you can coach dumb out of him
- Although now a seasoned NRL player, said dumb has not been coached out of him
- Isaako at 6 might work but we are not the team to try it

 

[Huge]

Fucking hell..

Too well? That will do me. Sorry for engaging, this is the most ridiculous take ever. You know how many players could kick it dead on the full if they wanted to but simply don't because it's fucking stupid? Big kicks are not good kicks, accuracy matters, Huge..

It's that you don't understand timing and rhythm. Isaako is aiming for height and length to maximize hang time and because he's pushing the boundaries on those things he occasionally over steps. He simply makes too sweet a contact. Had you played any sport at an elite level you'd understand this.

You make fake claims like Isaako has zero, that's ZERO accuracy yet demonstrably this is completely false. As we have seen out of every 100 kickoffs 95 are fine which on it's own demonstrates the lie you tell is incorrect. Of course you'll stupidly claim you're somehow still right.

 

[HarryAllan7]

We know it isn't totally without merit but the points that do not change are these:

- Isaako is a wonderful athlete physically
- Isaako is an incredibly dumb / prone to brain snaps football player
- The Broncos as a team are pretty much the same as Isaako as a player
- Isaako has an amazingly long boot and is a really good goal kicker
- Isaako is not an accurate in-game kicker, even when he kicks off, they tend to either go 60m or 35m (at NRL level, this is a massive margin of error)
- Isaako has not shown an ability to pass or set up plays but he is good at finishing them off
- Staggs is a more powerful, seemingly stronger mentally, athlete who most likely offers far more than Isaako if we are going down this route
- Isaako's attributes really make him an ideal centre if you can coach dumb out of him
- Although now a seasoned NRL player, said dumb has not been coached out of him
- Isaako at 6 might work but we are not the team to try it

I agree with all of this and none of my posts suggested anything to the contrary!

 

[Kooly87]

I agree with all of this and none of my posts suggested anything to the contrary!

Yes, correct. It worked for Wighton, under very specific circumstances and with a very specific support network around him.

There are a VERY limited handful of examples where this has worked, but there are dozens, if not hundreds of examples where it's failed spectacularly. It's an extremely low percentage gamble and yes, it is theoretically possibly that Isaako could be that one in many dozens of players where it does work out, but the odds are very much not in his favour here, and the fact he would have to do it at the Broncos where the support around him is way short of what Wighton had, definitely does not do him any favours here.

 

[Cult]

It's that you don't understand timing and rhythm. Isaako is aiming for height and length to maximize hang time and because he's pushing the boundaries on those things he occasionally over steps. He simply makes too sweet a contact. Had you played any sport at an elite level you'd understand this.

You make fake claims like Isaako has zero, that's ZERO accuracy yet demonstrably this is completely false. As we have seen out of every 100 kickoffs 95 are fine which on it's own demonstrates the lie you tell is incorrect. Of course you'll stupidly claim you're somehow still right.

That's because I'm not a musician, Huge. Isaako should aim to kick the ball into the massive amount of field he's supposed to kick it into instead. Also even when he does get in in the field it's not like he's Kyle Feldt and his kicks are difficult to catch. Sometimes when I play basketball I throw the ball well over the backboard and my mates laugh. Next time I am telling them it was just that I shot it too sweetly. Ooh I played numerous sports for my state by the way, ranked pretty highly in the country for a few sports too. Not basketball though, unfortunately. But I am going to let the selectors know they were wrong the entire time and that I was just shooting too sweetly..

It's not about his kicks offs at that point, it's the fact we were just scored against and his mindset seems to be "****, I better hit this too well instead of inside the fucking field".

 

[Kooly87]

That's because I'm not a musician, Huge. Isaako should aim to kick the ball into the massive amount of field he's supposed to kick it into instead. Also even when he does get in in the field it's not like he's Kyle Feldt and his kicks are difficult to catch. Sometimes when I play basketball I throw the ball well over the backboard and my mates laugh. Next time I am telling them it was just that I shot it too sweetly. Ooh I played numerous sports for my state by the way, ranked pretty highly in the country for a few sports too. Not basketball though, unfortunately. But I am going to let the selectors know they were wrong the entire time and that I was just shooting too sweetly..

It's not about his kicks offs at that point, it's the fact we were just scored against and his mindset seems to be "****, I better hit this too well instead of inside the fucking field".

Flegler didn't hit Yeo high either, he just hit him 'a little too sweetly'...

 

[Huge]

That's because I'm not a musician, Huge. Isaako should aim to kick the ball into the massive amount of field he's supposed to kick it into instead. Also even when he does get in in the field it's not like he's Kyle Feldt and his kicks are difficult to catch. Sometimes when I play basketball I throw the ball well over the backboard and my mates laugh. Next time I am telling them it was just that I shot it too sweetly. Ooh I played numerous sports for my state by the way, ranked pretty highly in the country for a few sports too. Not basketball though, unfortunately. But I am going to let the selectors know they were wrong the entire time and that I was just shooting too sweetly..

It's not about his kicks offs at that point, it's the fact we were just scored against and his mindset seems to be "****, I better hit this too well instead of inside the fucking field".

I am both a musician and a former state rep in the sporting arena ( two sports) and have an understanding of rhythm and timing. There were times when I hit things too well and even surprised myself. Ask any sportsperson and they'd relate to it I feel certain. I've explained how this can happen when pushing the boundaries. It's probably best exemplified by tennis players who can hit a ball with enormous power, top spin and curvature with ball after ball landing within millimeters of the baseline all while standing metres behind their own baseline. Every now and then they get surprised by how perfectly they've made contact and the ball 'flies' long, perhaps only by a trifle but at other times by considerably longer margins.

It doesn't matter though what is said or written because you've decided you know the outcome of a test/experiment that hasn't been performed. It's fine to guess or predict an outcome but proclaiming a result is certain is fundamentally flawed.

 

[theshed]

I am both a musician and a former state rep in the sporting arena ( two sports) and have an understanding of rhythm and timing. There were times when I hit things too well and even surprised myself. Ask any sportsperson and they'd relate to it I feel certain. I've explained how this can happen when pushing the boundaries. It's probably best exemplified by tennis players who can hit a ball with enormous power, top spin and curvature with ball after ball landing within millimeters of the baseline all while standing metres behind their own baseline. Every now and then they get surprised by how perfectly they've made contact and the ball 'flies' long, perhaps only by a trifle but at other times by considerably longer margins.

It doesn't matter though what is said or written because you've decided you know the outcome of a test/experiment that hasn't been performed. It's fine to guess or predict an outcome but proclaiming a result is certain is fundamentally flawed.

This is exactly the issue though, stop “pushing thee boundaries” when you’re team is under the pump. You’ve actually perfectly summed up my issues with Jermayne. He goes for the hero moments when all was needed was a smart conservative option.

He pushed the boundaries when he grubberred on the first. He pushed the boundaries when he let Dufty score while sheparding the ball dead. He pushed the boundaries when he tried to run around the defence on a kick off and ended up into touch. He pushed the boundaries when he tried all those mostly unnecessary short kick offs. He pushed the boundaries when he went for the 2 point field goal when it was not even close to being on - twice!

If a tennis player’s serve technique kept putting them under immense pressure because they “hit it too sweet” far more often than their opponents then they need to fix their technique or retire the tactic.

The guy tries to push boundaries that no one wants or needs him to do. This I why the last thing I want to do is give him even more responsibility. Kev is showing his incompetence by letting the guy still take placed kicks.

 

[Trill Harrigan]

isaako at 6 is one of the dumbest ideas i've ever heard

he probably has the coaching staff tie his shoelaces for him before the game

 

[Renegade]

What's this idea of hitting it too sweetly? Hitting it sweetly indicates you've nailed it in terms of technique. If you're overcooking it, you're simply fucking up and hence it can't be too sweet.

 

[Scorchie]

What's this idea of hitting it too sweetly? Hitting it sweetly indicates you've nailed it in terms of technique. If you're overcooking it, you're simply fucking up and hence it can't be too sweet.

Sweet implies good.

Kicking it 2-10m beyond the dead ball line is most definitely - not good.

 

[Kooly87]

Sweet implies good.

Kicking it 2-10m beyond the dead ball line is most definitely - not good.

It's honestly mind blowing that this needs to be explained to someone on a football forum.

 

[Foordy]